Well THIS never happened before!

[cannonmn]

Before I fergit, MERRY CHRISTMAS, HAPPY HOLIDAYS etc., to all gunners and their families everywhere.  May you all have a joyous holiday season, happy New Year, and prosperous year ahead!

Now for what happened.  I get a referral from a friend who forwards me an email from an antique dealer.  The friend is many states away but the antique dealer is in my area.  He's been "on a call" to some building, which I gather is within at most an hour or two from where I live, possibly much closer, but it isn't clear.  The dealer says he's trying to identify the items in his photo, obviously two large original bronze howitzer tubes!  I tell him they are late 18th, early 19th C. European bronze howitzer tubes, that would have to weigh nearly a ton apiece.  The top one in the photo is inverted, of course, it has dolphins and is a twin to the other.  There are some marks but the antique dealer can't make out exactly what they are, and his photos aren't clear enough to tell.



I can't get any more information, like exactly where they are, or what's going to happen to them if anything.  Why did the owners/custodians call him?  Do they want to know if the antique value exceeds the scrap value?  Who knows.

This is maddening.  "So close but so far away."  You know I'd love to get my hands on just one of 'em!  And having next to no information, I have no idea who owns 'em, whether they will break loose or not. 

The way some of these situations work out, some idiot gets there at just the right time, and is able to buy them for $200. apiece or something ridiculous.

But of course those are the wrong thoughts for Christmas, how selfish of me!  But I can't help it, I'm but a weak human.

Maybe after Christmas I'll look in my wallet and see if there's any persuasive power left in it and go work on the guy.

[Cat Whisperer]

Looks like they're in Santa's BACK workshop.

 

[Rickk]

If you pass on them, please do let the rest of us know where they are and any other details.

Rick

[Artilleryman]

I wonder what they were sitting on or in that caused the discoloration of the breeches?

[cannonmn]

I wonder what they were sitting on or in that caused the discoloration of the breeches?

See the old concrete thing next to them?  That's one of the cast concrete box-like stands they were in at one time when I guess they must have been outside.  The breeches would have been down and surrounded by that concrete, keeping moisture on that part much more than the exposed parts of the barrel.  So corrosion would be concentrated there, it looks like.

[dan610324]

very beautiful and interesting

but if it is a pair , why just go for one of them ??
its pity to split a pair as they are very rare .

clearly they have been mounted in concrete , most likely in one of them in the background .
at the bottom of the top barrel its still chunks of concrete attached to the barrel .

stolen , bought , found or what ??
as they more or less have been burried in concrete I would guess an public area of any kind .
cemetary , outside an city hall or any other public building .

this aint directly things you usualy just find when you take your morning walk with the dog .

but sure its very interesting

please john , if you get an posibility to buy dont split the pair .
the economical value on a pair is 3 times a single barrel , not doubble .
and just the feeling of having an twin pair cant be meassured in money .

if they are for sale for scrap value and you still just want one I will take the other 

[cannonmn]

if you get an posibility to buy dont split the pair

No worries there, I'd never leave one of a pair behind unless all the money I could find at the time would only buy one of 'em. 

I like pairs, have collected maybe a dozen pairs of identical cannons that have always been together.  For some reason I've found quite a few bronze cannons in pairs that have "always" been together.  I've only found one or two such pairs of iron cannons.

[dan610324]

it could  be because there are many more of the bronze cannons saved today then iron cannons .

I dont know why , could be many different reasons .
one of them could be the much higher value of the bronze matal .
another is of course that you can find an bronze barrel in perfect condition after 300 - 400 years on the bottom of the sea , an iron barrel found under the same conditions probably aint of almost any interest for an collector . and the extreme cost for the conservation of such an iron barrel makes it only museums and institutions can afford to do it . a bronze barrel you only need to clean carefully with an soft brush in destillated water and wax it when its totaly dry .

but how to clean those bronze tubes from concrete without destroying the patina ,
or even vorse scratching the metall ??

would it be possible to use some kind of dilluted acid ??

[cannonmn]

but how to clean those bronze tubes from concrete without destroying the patina ,
or even vorse scratching the metall ??

Last time I had to do that I beat on the thicker concrete with hardwood and aluminum and cracked some of it off.  The older types of paint remover with the nasty smelly chemicals in it will remove concrete but not fast.  There are special chemicals used by people who work with concrete, that take it off of their tools very quickly.  I didn't get to the point of needing that stuff, but maybe next time.

[cannonmn]

I figured out exactly what these are.  I was looking thru my old photos to see if I could find anything similar and ran across a smaller, but otherwise very similar howitzer with good markings.   Since I have a full ID on the one in my old photo (right-hand piece in bottom photo) I could ID the larger ones in the antique dealer's photo.

The larger ones are French post-Revolution Griveauval-style howitzers.  They would date from about 1790-1820.  In my photo, you can see the familiar "LIBERTE EGALITE" slogan on the muzzle of the smaller weapon.  The dealer told me he could make out only the letters "EGA" on the muzzle ring one of the larger howitzers he found.  French post-Revolutionary howitzers are about the only bronze guns I've ever seen that had any kind of marking on the muzzle ring or astragal, and the engraving style, a large block character made by engraving the outline of the letter matches as well.

The flat sides of the basering are also a match between the one in my old photo and the ones he found.  I have no idea what the large characters engraved in the breechface are supposed to be.

I'm continuing to communicate with the dealer to make sure if these pieces are available, I get a shot at them.  He's been highly secretive so far, and I still don't know where they are nor their status as to ownership or availablity.  Frustrating!

 

[Terry C.]

I've used muriatic acid to remove excess mortar from brickwork. Mortar, cement, and concrete are highly reactive to muriatic acid.

I've heard that it is sometimes used (heavily diluted) in the removal of concretions from recovered marine artifacts, but I would do my homework before using it on a valuable antique.

Industrial-strength muriatic acid is nasty, unforgiving stuff. Always dilute as recommended, and follow strick safety and environmental safegards. Proper ventilation and protective clothing is a must.

[cannonmn]

When  I got the concrete off my bronze 3-pounder I didn't want to damage the patina at all so I didn't use any acids.  The paint remover didn't bother the patina.  Now I remember the name of the active chemical in it, I think it was methylene chloride.  You don't want to breath the fumes too much.

[schutzen]

If you want to remove concrete residue from and metal, soak it in oil.  Break the large pieces off and then coal the metal with oil overnight.  Scrape off the loose concrete the next day.  Repeat if necessary.

Works like a champ on steel concrete forms.

[cannonmn]

The antique dealer got back to where this pair is and finally measured the bores.  They are 6.5 inch howitzers, not 8-inch as I had presumed earlier.  I think they are identical to the center one in the last picture I posted.  I seriously doubt if they will ever spring loose, from talking to him, but of course I'm staying in touch if anything happens.