Author Topic: Going to Sort out the 45/70 Handi Today (Read 1328 times)

Lazermule · « **on:** December 26, 2008, 03:35:15 AM »

In early November this year I bought myself a Handi in 45/70 for my birthday. I topped it with a Nikon Prostaff 3-9x Prostaff scope on a Weaver rail and Leupold rings and worked up a pretty stout load for it. I was impressed with the accuracy as it was shooting very tight so I took it to the woods as another freezer filler. The deer count was a little few and far between this year and the Handi had some issues with accuracy once in the field. The first issue was a nice big doe at 125 yards broadside. I had all the time in the world as neither her or I were in a hurry. I had a sold rest, held on the boiler room and squeezed of the shot that I was sure would put her hooves up. Negative....off she went and I saw a 3" tree fall in the woods behind where she was. I went and checked for any sign of blood or hair in the fresh snow and nothing. My next encounter was another large doe I was watching for quite some time at about 40 yards out milling around in front of me. Made the decision to take her, so the same thing, steady rest held on the vitals and squeezed off the shot. One thing is for sure, and that is I scared the heck out of her but it was a clean miss for sure as again there was no blood or hair and I watched her run away for 200-300 yards.

I took the gun to the range and it was shooting 10+ inches high and wasn't grouping all that tight. I put it away and dawned the old Savage 7mm Mag for the remainder of the season of which I saw no more deer.

Anyway, this thing went from shooting darn tight to shooting "Minute of Barn Door" and today it is my project to get it right.

The first thing I will do is shoot it again how it is and see where it is, re-zero it and try to hold a group. I have another scope to work into the mix so that will help. I have a sneaking suspicion that the scope gave up on me but that would be a first for me with a trusty Nikon. Has anyone had issues with the Prostaff grade Nikon? It is not their premium grade, I realize that but it should hold up wouldn't you think??

I will also wipe down the latch system as I saw it was a tip in the FAQ's.

Well, it's 8:30 am here now, I'd say it's time to wake up the neighbors!

I'll keep you posted....

LAZER

Lazermule · « **Reply #1 on:** December 26, 2008, 09:29:22 AM »

Well, I fount that the problem is definitely related to the recoil knocking the heck out of the scope. I re-bore sighted the Nikon and headed out to the range. I couldn't hit the 3'x3' target at 100 yards. Knowing that the scope was probably toast, I headed back to thebasement to mount up another scope and again bore sight it. I mounted up a "Master Series" Simmons Prosport 3-9x that I had new in the box as a spare.

After 3 shots with the new scope mounted up I had the group shown in the attached picture at 100 yards. The 2 closest shots were shot 1 and shot 2. I think on shot 3 it was on its way out....

After 3 more shots, I was back to "Minute of Barn Door" and pitching them all over again. The cross hairs in the new scope had rotated a few degrees and the focus was poor telling me that this scope too fell victim to the recoil of this rifle.

The recoil to me sure doesn't feel too bad but I guess it may be time to ante up quite a bit more ($200+) for a scope on this rifle.

So what is everybody else using on their 45/70 Handi's for scopes that are holding up well? Do I need a Leupold? Weaver? Upper end Nikon? Shotgun scope? Maybe the Nikon Prostaff I got was just a bad one? It started out shooting very good.

From the group I had before the optics went away, I think it is safe to say that the gun will be a decent shooter with a good scope and the handload I have is a good one.

LAZER

petemi · « **Reply #2 on:** December 26, 2008, 09:57:05 AM »

My used .45-70 came with a cheap Simmons 8 point. 3-9x50. No problems. I'm shooting Hornady LEs. It shoots well all day, every day.

Happy New Year

Pete

Lazermule · « **Reply #3 on:** December 26, 2008, 11:09:02 AM »

Thanks Pete, Yeah this is a bit puzzling. I would think the Nikon would hold up. The LE ammo has some pretty good snoot to it so you are introducing some pretty good recoil to your Simmons as well. The Simmons that I wrecked today is about a $100 scope so it while its not a show piece, it should give better service than it has. Both scopes I have are going back, and I am going to get something decent that I can count on. I have a $169 Weaver 2-10x on my 7mm Mag that has been on it for 20 or so years with many rounds and has never required rezeroing. That gun has more recoil than this Handi does. I think Weaver still makes that scope but it's a bit more now. Hopefully it's as good.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** December 26, 2008, 11:53:24 AM »

I have a Nikon Omega 3-9x40 BDC 250 on my SS 45-70 Ultra Hunter shooting ruger level loads in it, and the Nikon Prostaff 2-7x32 shotgun scope on my 500S&W Handi. I've used the Bushnell Banner 1½-4½x32 on one of my 45-70 Handis shooting hot levergun loads. That's three that I've used that work fine with lots of recoil.

Tim

Big Blue · « **Reply #5 on:** December 26, 2008, 12:45:46 PM »

I always found the fixed power scopes to be a bit more sturdy. For my 45/70's I usually use a low power 3x or 2.5x and have had no problems with either.
Don

The Hermit · « **Reply #6 on:** December 26, 2008, 02:59:06 PM »

My 45-70 Handi has a cheap Barska 3X9 ( $50.00 ) scope on it. Its all I could afford on my allowance, but it shoots right on. I too use the Hornady LE which knocks me around a little bit, but so far the scope is still on. Might try a cheap scope on it and see what it does.

The Hermit

Lazermule · « **Reply #7 on:** December 27, 2008, 02:10:12 PM »

Did a bit of running around today to solve my scope issue and ended up at Cabela's first which happened to be the only place I needed to go. I told the guy at the gun counter what had happened with my Nikon and he was amazed that recoil would affect it as it did. I had left the broken scope in the car when I went there, because I did not buy it there but he told me to go get it anyway and he would exchange it for me. When I returned to the counter he pulled out the identical scope and said "here you are sir, have a nice day". Man, I thought what a stand up guy! I told the wife that this type of service should be rewarded with me upgrading and spending some more money (wink, wink). In the end, I threw another $100 bill on the counter and walked out with a better scope. I ended up getting the Nikon shotgun slug scope which I guess is rated for the highest recoil and it too has the BDC reticle as well.

The shotgun scope has a bit shorter tube which gave me some issues when I returned home as the standard Weaver rail presents a longer distance between the rings than the shotgun scope tube between the bells. Well, that was nothing that the Bridgeport couldn't solve as I just threw the base in the vise and milled another slot in the rail allowing the rings to be closer. I have some photos of what I did that I can post, but they are currently on the Unix box that I am on in the shop and too large to post at the moment. I haven't the faintest idea on how to compress them on this Unix machine so I will shoot them over to my other machine in the house where I can reduce their size and post them.

I will hit the range with it tomorrow.

LAZER

Lazermule · « **Reply #8 on:** December 27, 2008, 03:25:43 PM »

OK, Here are pictures of what I did to make the shorter tube scope fit. At first first, I thought that it would be as simple as just fitting a new rail on the rifle, but Cabela's, Gander Mountain and a small mom and pop shop that has everything didn't have or list one for it. The Mom and pop shop is actually a well known area smith as well and he recommended milling a new slot as well so it was back to the shop and on to the Bridgeport it went.

Here are the pictures, I realize I didn't accomplish rocket science here but if it helps someone else out that's great....

LAZER

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #9 on:** December 27, 2008, 03:38:34 PM »

I haven't had any trouble with my Nikons, from the cheap ones to the Monarch, but I see them in Natchez advertised as "reconditioned" so may have some issues. I like mine, bright and clear to the edges. I have either shotgun scopes or some Weaver K 2.5's on my heavy kickers. I did put a TruGlo red dot on my 444 handi and she is still doing fine. That is a very quick (sorry Tim) sight to use, 2 power, 2.5 MOA dot. DP

Lazermule · « **Reply #10 on:** December 27, 2008, 03:44:18 PM »

I like the TruGlo as well, I have one on my 9MM carbine and it has seen over 5000 rounds without a hitch...

John Boy · « **Reply #11 on:** December 27, 2008, 03:57:52 PM »

Lazer -I own only one scoped rifle and the screws are lubed with LocTite

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** December 27, 2008, 04:18:21 PM »

Lazer, you should have checked out the Weaver #82 base modification in the FAQs, you could have made a nice mount out of it instead of having that ~~POS~~ un-Handi friendly flat spot on the rear!!

Cutting cross slots doesn't require anything more than a table saw and carbide blade, of course a file, dremel or hack saw works too as many have used them too.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,121850.msg1098414814.html#msg1098414814

LONGTOM · « **Reply #13 on:** December 27, 2008, 04:49:24 PM »

I have three scoped 45-70s.
My WIN 1885 HIGHWALL and one of my BCs have old model SIMMONE AETECs 3.8x12 as do many of my rifles.
I have never had a problem out of them.
As for the new MASTER SERIES, I had two and will never have another.
How can a scope hold it's zero if you have to leave the rear ring loose in order to work the magnifaction adjustment as per SIMMON'S instructions!

My Handi has a LEUPOLD 2x7 and does a fine job.

I did have a BUSHNELL BANNER come apart just a week ago on my 35 WHELEN.
It will be replaced by an old AETEC.
The NICON BLACK POWDER SCOPES seem to hold up very well, have one of those on my 450 MARLIN Handi.
I also have had great service with the BUSHNELL DUSK TO DAWN series scopes.

LONGTOM

mechanic · « **Reply #14 on:** December 27, 2008, 04:59:58 PM »

My friends I am glad I am not alone. I went through three scopes before finding one that would hold up. I wound up with a Simmons prodiamond shotgun scope on my BC. Maybe some of us are just scope unlucky?

Ben

LONGTOM · « **Reply #15 on:** December 27, 2008, 05:30:34 PM »

The Bushnell was the first scope I ever had come apart except for one many many years ago which I knocked over onto concrete.
Not the scopes fault, the dummy holding the gun-ME!!!

LONGTOM

wbm · « **Reply #16 on:** December 28, 2008, 09:40:14 AM »

Quote from: LONGTOM on December 27, 2008, 04:49:24 PM

As for the new MASTER SERIES, I had two and will never have another.
How can a scope hold it's zero if you have to leave the rear ring loose in order to work the magnifaction adjustment as per SIMMON'S instructions!
LONGTOM

I have a Simmons Master Series and I don't have to leave the rear ring loose in order to work the magnification adjustment. Is that in Simmons printed material? Have used it on everything from 7MM Magnums to my 30-06 Handi.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #17 on:** December 28, 2008, 10:10:46 AM »

Quote from: wbm on December 28, 2008, 09:40:14 AM

I have a Simmons Master Series and I don't have to leave the rear ring loose in order to work the magnification adjustment. Is that in Simmons printed material? Have used it on everything from 7MM Magnums to my 30-06 Handi.

I would say you have a alignment issue with the base and rings. Your "torquing" the scope tube out of alignment, causing the adj ring to not turn.

Check the FAQ's and Tim has an excellent writeup on aligning scope rings!!

Lazer,
I am a strong proponent of LEUPOLD scopes. I tried the Nikon's at Tim's suggestion and really do not like them alt ho I did not have the problems your experiencing. Also watch those rings, I'm not a fan and have seen them cause there own problems. If that POI moves again, I will suggest some better rings.

CW

Lazermule · « **Reply #18 on:** December 28, 2008, 11:26:54 AM »

Thanks for all of the insight guys, it looks like this Nikon shotgun scope is going to workout for me. I shot 21 rounds through it today (stout handloads) and it did well. The attached picture shows my last 3 rounds on a fresh target at 100 yards, not the best but I am happy with it for now. The rifle certainly pulls up and right when it heats up. It was a bit cold here today so I wasn't interested in waiting around for it to cool down. Some of that last shot may have been me being cold and pounded by the first 20 shots. When it warms up a bit, I'll start playing around with the BDC and see how that works as well. I also think I will work up a light target load as this is a fun rifle to shoot and there is no sense in pounding the heck out of me and the gun to punch paper.

CW, I will do a bit of research on better rings if I see any issues. For some reason or another around here the choice on high rings is very limited. I thought about cutting down the hammer a bit as Tim has mentioned but I'll wait until I get my camo laminated thumbhole stock all setup on it as I am waiting for a forend that is on BO from Brownells.

LAZER

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** December 28, 2008, 12:08:41 PM »

Good shooting, can't complain about that at all!! I have the Nikon Omega 3-9x40 BDC 250 on my Ultra Hunter mounted in medium Leupold PRWs, it's the same basic scope as the Slughunter and BDC 200, didn't have to remove too much from the hammer, just a little adjustment of the shoulder on the extension so it sits a little lower on the hammer.

I don't think I've mentioned this before, but one of the many little things Remington/H&R are considering is changing the profile of the hammer and incorporating a Winchester M94 style hammer extension that screws into the side of the hammer spur, I sent them pics of the old style hammer for their R&D to work on, hopefully they'll work with it and make it happen.

Tim

Lazermule · « **Reply #20 on:** December 28, 2008, 02:14:19 PM »

Thanks Tim. Yeah, I really like the load I have and the gun seems to like it as well. Like I said in my last post though, it's time to find a load that is a little more tame for some target shooting though.

The new possible hammer design sounds like this one (see picture)...

LM

The Hermit · « **Reply #21 on:** December 29, 2008, 03:35:14 PM »

Lazermule, you mentioned that your rifle pulls up & right when it heats up, and I noticed that my 45-70 does the same thing. My first shot out of a cold barrel is always low and left. If this is common, does everybody just compensate for it or is there a cure. The difference is about 4" at 100 yards. Not enough to make a big diff on a deer. Just curious.

The Hermit

Lazermule · « **Reply #22 on:** December 29, 2008, 04:02:52 PM »

Quote from: The Hermit on December 29, 2008, 03:35:14 PM

Lazermule, you mentioned that your rifle pulls up & right when it heats up, and I noticed that my 45-70 does the same thing. My first shot out of a cold barrel is always low and left. If this is common, does everybody just compensate for it or is there a cure. The difference is about 4" at 100 yards. Not enough to make a big diff on a deer. Just curious.

The Hermit

I did a little validation experiment today.

Here is a photo of a cold shot out of my 45/70 in the center of the target. I then shot 4 more shots at a steel gong to get the bore hot and returned to this target on the 6th shot. You can see that I validated my POI change due to the heated bore. Still minute of deer, and the 1st shot is the one that counts.

Anyone ever chryrogenically treated a barrel to cure this?? Or is that a bunch of hype that has passed?

LM

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** December 29, 2008, 04:05:33 PM »

There's a recent cryo thread, probably back a few pages by now.

Tim

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #24 on:** December 29, 2008, 04:09:01 PM »

Just curious, But what diffrence would it make for a hunting rifle? Two or three shots is all your gonna lite off, and if we do our part the first one is the only one that counts anyway. Is it worth worrying about when your first one hits where you want it.

IMHO in a handie Its not worth the expense, deer accurate is plenty, In a high dollar rifle..... I might spend the extra dollars.

Lazermule · « **Reply #25 on:** December 29, 2008, 04:21:01 PM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob on December 29, 2008, 04:09:01 PM

Just curious, But what diffrence would it make for a hunting rifle? Two or three shots is all your gonna lite off, and if we do our part the first one is the only one that counts anyway. Is it worth worrying about when your first one hits where you want it.

IMHO in a handie Its not worth the expense, deer accurate is plenty, In a high dollar rifle..... I might spend the extra dollars.

It's all part of the sickness....

LM

LONGTOM · « **Reply #26 on:** December 29, 2008, 04:27:25 PM »

Sorry guys, I forgot about this thread.

I don't remember if it stated that in the paper work or not.
I no longer have the scope.
I sold it on GBO and the member who bought it had the same problem if I recall.
As for the loose rear ring on the MASTER SERIES scope, this is on the AETEC line, not sure if it is the same on the other lines but that is what a SIMMONS tec rep told me when I called to ask what was wrong.
He said that because the new MASTER SERIES scopes have two sliding tubes that the rear ring screws could not be torked down as tight as the front ones.
Doing so would bind the inner tube and lock the adjusting ring.
He said just back it off enought to allow the ring to turn and I should be fine.
The scope was mounted at a very reliable gun shop and in fact it was his phone that I made the call from.
It did do the trick but I wasn't comfortable with the loose ring idea and had him take it off and bought a NIKON instead.

LONGTOM