Handi Rifle 45-70 Question.

[jr 1968]

Hi Guy's
I am thinking about getting a 45-70. My question is I will be reloading for it and will be useing 300 gr bullet
and was wondering  what would be the lowest velocity to still take down whitetails cleanly?

Thanks Guy's
jr 1968

[twoshooter]

probably anything over 750 fps at impact should get complete penetration on a whitetail I would think. I have shot many deer with them, my cast muzzle velocity is about 1500 fps witha 322 gr HP (457122) Lyman, or about 1850 with a 300gr Rem HP. No bullets ever recovered, at ranges up to 200 yds.

[petemi]

Why the need for the lowest velocity??  I shoot Hornady 325 gr. LEs at 2050 fps.  They do the job.  Why not shoot something fast enough you don't have to question?  Also, the type of bullet has a lot to do with how cleanly it kills.

[LaOtto222]

Pete works under the Tim Allen philosophy...More power! He is not all wrong on that. However with a large caliber, high velocity is not needed to make a clean kill. 45 Colts and 44 mags in a hand gun have killed a lot of deer. It would depend on the range you shoot deer at what minimum muzzle velocity would take deer cleanly. I personally would want around 1000 fps minimum for terminal velocity with an expanding bullet. Looking at a Hornady bullet drop table, using a Hornady 300 grain hollow point a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps will get you 1096 fps at 100 yards and 977 fps at 200 yards. If you are trying to keep the recoil as low as possible, I would not drop below the 1300 fps thresh hold. If you are not worried about recoil, then the 1800 fps - 2000 fps area is really better. A hard cast bullet will penetrate more for the same velocity. This is because the bullet does not expand and they are of usually a blunt nose shape. A jacketed bullet needs enough velocity to expand. If it does not expand then the nose is more rounded and will not punch as big a hole as a hard cast bullet. There is something about a slow moving, large caliber bullet that just seems to knock game dead, but proper bullet design is important and you have to have enough velocity to open a jacketed bullet up. Good Luck and Good Shooting

[cwlongshot]

I have a big problem with people trying to get ultra slow velocities from such voluminous cases, WHY? Want lo velocity form a 45.... shoot a ACP! Want a bit more... buy a 45 Colt and so on. Don't pick one of the biggest cases and decide to make it shoot 750fps!

 DETONATION is a very real possible result. Anytime the powder inside the case drops below the flash hole when lying horizontal detonation can occur and the results are DESASTEROUS!!! This is a very missunderstood phenomenon.

If you have to get lower velocities choose a BULKY powder like trail boss or 5744. Even then velocities under 1000 are not easily attained.

PLEASE BE CAREFUL!!!

CW

[Westbound]

I'm new to shooting a 45-70, so I don't have much experience to base opinion on, but...

If you are asking about low velocity to curb felt recoil, then you shouldn't have much worry.
I haven't hand loaded for this cartridge yet, but with the factory loads i've shot several types.
The remington 405 gr soft point moves at 1330 fps at the muzzle and maintains 1168 fps at 100 yards. this should be potent on just about any deer.
and the recoil...   not even worth mentioning.  somewhat like my old browing pump 12 gauge with birdshot, but more of a push than a kick.

I'll be testing some factory loads in the 300 gr HP at 1800fps today. 

[Badnews Bob]

I am with CW on this if you want to shoot a 300 grain bullet slow get a .45 colt,  I like 405 @1300 FPS or so out of my .45-70 very easy to shoot and knock The P water outta deer.  Trail boss is probably the better choice for light loads thou.

[kevinsmith5]

Is the OP asking in terms of terminal velocity for a kill?  Like how fast he wants it to be moving at his max range?  I've given that plenty of thought when thinking about my max range.

[John Boy]

jr - The Taylor KO calculator is a neat tool to make some determinations ... http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp based on your loading recipe
There are other factors needed than just a 300gr bullet and your post is vague as to: smokeless or black powder charge or cast or jacketed.  Suggest you look at some vendors loading data sites to see what velocities and energy are produced by powder type - charge with a 300gr bullet.

You must remember also - speed doesn't cleanly kill wildlife ... the properly placed shot does

[BBF]

 The generally accepted min.impact energy of 1000 ftlb for deer doesn't apply to large caliber/heavy bullet applications. 

I would think about half of that figure would suffice for a clean well placed shot .

[AtlLaw]

what would be the lowest velocity to still take down whitetails cleanly?

I'm with everbody else.  Please let us know your reason for asking this question.  It would help a lot in formulating an answer.

[jr 1968]

I should have stated loaded to about 1800. I guess I should have been more clear.

So if I load at 1800 will I be all right, if so what would my most effective range

Thanks
jr1968

[Badnews Bob]

Learn how it shoots and that load would be good to 200yrds easy.

BTW why the 300grain bullet?  IMHO .45-70s are much happier with heavier bullets,   Heavy = longer  better BC and SD which usally mean better shooting.   (Every rifle is diffrent thou)

[Badnews Bob]

The generally accepted min.impact energy of 1000 ftlb for deer doesn't apply to large caliber/heavy bullet applications. 

I would think about half of that figure would suffice for a clean well placed shot .

I guess I'm not a genral cause I don't buy that foot pound stuff. Holes in them vitals is what kills them. .45-70 makes big hole.

[AtlLaw]

So if I load at 1800 will I be all right, if so what would my most effective range

I tell ya there ol' pard, 1800 fps ain't really "loaded down" for the 300 gr bullet in the 45/70.     That's exactly the velocity I got outa my 22 inch barrel with a slightly compressed load of Varget.  Actually, if I were to ever hunt deer again with the 300 gr. HP, which I don't plan to - I only got a few of them really soft things left, I'd probably back it off to 1300 - 1500 fps.

Ima goin to the 405's my own darn self!   

[dpe.ahoy]

I can get pretty close to that with stiff 45 colt loads in my 454 puma and can break it easy with the 454's.  My Handi 45 has a chamber that lets the cases stretch out to much with that load so back er down a bit for her and the Win Trapper in 45.  How does the Varget do for the 45-70, I just picked up a pound of it today to try after hearing some one mention it.  Come to think of it  , I think it was you Richard.  Been so busy for the last 2 months, the CRS has really kicked in.   DP

[John Boy]

So if I load at 1800 will I be all right, if so what would my most effective range

jr - as long as your eyes and fingers are in good shooting condition - 1800 fps will get the bullet to a 1000yd target (shoot it on a calm day though because a 300gr has a small ballistics coefficient )

Here's some recipes for you
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
Jacketed Bullets
Bullet Weight (Gr.)     Manufacturer     Powder     Bullet Diam.     C.O.L.     Grs.     Vel. (ft/s)     Pressure     Grs.     Vel. (ft/s)     Pressure             
300 GR. SIE HP     IMR     IMR 4198     .458"     2.525"     54.0     2253     31,800 CUP     58.5C     2450     43,000 CUP          
300 GR. SIE HP     Hodgdon     H4198     .458"     2.525"     59.5     2394     37,300 CUP     63.0     2532     50,000 CUP          

NEVER EXCEED MAXIMUM LOADS

Cast Bullets
Bullet Weight (Gr.)     Manufacturer     Powder     Bullet Diam.     C.O.L.     Grs.     Vel. (ft/s)     Pressure     Grs.     Vel. (ft/s)     Pressure             
300 GR. CAST LFP     Hodgdon     Varget     .458"     2.465"     45.0     1599     17,800 CUP     55.0     1880     20,600 CUP          
300 GR. CAST LFP     IMR     IMR 4064     .458"     2.465"     49.8     1685     19,400 CUP     53.0     1813     21,800 CUP          
300 GR. CAST LFP     IMR     IMR 4895     .458"     2.465"     47.5     1590     16,500 CUP     50.5     1703     20,400 CUP          
300 GR. CAST LFP     Hodgdon     H4895     .458"     2.465"     45.0     1572     14,400 CUP     51.0     1703     15,500 CUP          
300 GR. CAST LFP     IMR     IMR 3031     .458"     2.465"     51.7     1839     18,700 CUP     55.0     1995     24,900 CUP          
300 GR. CAST LFP     Hodgdon     Benchmark     .458"     2.465"     54.0     1788     18,300 CUP     58.0     1940     21,900 CUP          
300 GR. CAST LFP     IMR     IMR 4198     .458"     2.465"     33.8     1649     15,500 CUP     36.0     1752     20,200 CUP          
300 GR. CAST LFP     Hodgdon     H4198     .458"     2.465"     30.0     1390     14,400 CUP     35.5     1641     16,100 CUP          
300 GR. CAST LFP     IMR     Trail Boss     .458"     2.465"     14.0     1199     19,400 CUP     16.5     1285     20,900 CUP

[quickdtoo]

1800fps is standard trapdoor factory velocity for 300gr ammo, but H4198 is my choice for 300gr jacketed 45-70 loads as John Boy's data shows, I've shot 300gr Nosler partitions at 2425fps from the 22" Handi and 300gr Barnes TSX-FB at 2350fps from the 24" SS 45-70 Ultra hunter.

Tim

[jr 1968]

Thank You Guy's, everybody has answered all my questions.

jr 1968