Comparing bp to pyrodex

[docux]

What  is your experience comparing bp to pyro.?  I have 3 50 cal. guns & all 3 shoot more accurate with BP Thanks for any replies :grin:

[pendennis]

Docux, I prefer BP to Pyrodex, and the rest of the substitutes.  Clean up with BP is just as easy as P'dex, and I've found that BP is far more consistent.  Despite the fact that P'dex doesn't foul the bore as much, I've found that P'dex accuracy does degenerate if the barrel is not cleaned while shooting.

Just one man's opinion.

[Thomas Price]

As far as Iam concerned there is no subsitute for black powder. I Have tried 777, clear shot. pyrodex rs and pyrodex pellets and my 2 guns don't like anything but good old goex ffg. Also a couple of friends that I have gotten to try black powder had better groups useing black powder vs their pyrodex. And I don't really see any diffrence in the cleanining of black powder vs pyrodex(I clean between every shot) except the black powder has a stronger sullfer smell. When I first tried the pyrodex pellets I was shooting at 50 yrds and all shots made one raged hole. And I thought that this was really the stuff, no measureing just drop 2 down the barrel. But when I moved the target to 100 yrds. my group opened up to about 6 inches with no two in the same place, so I went back to the black powder and 3 out of 5 shots were touching each other. So to me there is no subsitute!!

[docux]

Thanks for the replys; I shoot 320 to 360 gr. conical in 2 gun I have with 1 in 28" twists bp is far more accurate 1 other gun with 1 in 48" twist  does the same shooting patch & balls, fouling & cleaning is no different

[johnt]

NW Iowa? Hhmm,, Big rondy in Albert Lee 1st. weeknd of Oct. They call it Big Island. just off 90. Ever go? Plannin on goin? :grin:

[Charles/NM]

When I first started shooting my muzzle loader in '77 (1977 not 1877) I shot only Goex BP and lubed with Crisco. Two shots and I had to brush the bore or the next bullet or ball wouldn't go down the barrel.  Pyrodex was like a gift from heaven.  I could shoot all day and not clean until I got home.  Cleaning for both is the same routine.
Black powder IS more accurate.  My black powder cartridge shooting friends say there is no comparison for shot to shot consistancy.  For me when I'm fun shooting and plinking I'm willing to give up 5% accuracy for the convenience of not having to clean in the field with Pyrodex and scented Crisco in the Big Yellow Tube.  But just in case I find the need for it I have a full can of Goex standing by.
Charles/NM

[mamaflinter]

docux Pyrodex is much more corrosive than blackpowder. Also when you clean the rifle you must be much more careful and tedious with it. If you don't get all the salts out, you will trash a barrel in short order. Yes the same thing will happen with bp, however pyrodex is made with the same 3 ingredients in bp plus 8 other ingredients (most if not all of which contain some sort of salt). Also when shot, pyrodex produces trace amounts of cyanide gas. You might find that after shooting a round with the wind blowing into your face that you feel a slight stifling effect. This is the cyanide gas. It's not enough to hurt you but I want no part of it myself.

BP in my opinion is the only way to shoot. Plus if you are shooting flintlocks it's the ONLY powder that will give you consistently reliable ignition.

[Charles/NM]

Alright! I'm convinced!  I've been living in denial about real black powder being better.  Gunna have to relive my days of yore, shoot some Goex and deal with black gooey crud in my barrel.  Think I'll use T/C yellow lube this time instead of Crisco.  If I find BP to be more accurate then I'm really in a fix.  Wal Mart desn't carry it.  I'm going to have to go my hardcore BP shooting buds with hat in hand and beg them to sell me some of their stash (of BP).

[johnt]

Charles,, your last comment is like saying I caught my limit of big fish using a yellow bucktail jig once,(25yrs ago)and I'm gonna kept tryin till I catch'm all again.
 Well,them fishes don't like yellow no more cause it's dry this year.

Maybe dump the crisco. Try bee'swax or Alox or Bear oil? Spit?
 It just might be  the combination of lube vs. charge that's causing your problem.?Packin? A spring or nipple?
 Maybe try t7 or swiss?
Point is experiment. Maybe dump them leather patches and try cloth for PRB,or sumething besides "chapstick"(the yellow stuff in a tube) fer shootin.
  I can tell ya right now, upgrading to top line powders beit true or faux will increase your accuracy and decrease your cleaning time.

Whatta ya wanna use for the hunt? $ 8.99 or $ 17.99? your choice,,,sportsmen.

Pyrodex=pyrocrap=pellets=goex=cheap=loser,the sum total=your guess

[KING]

:-)      For what it is worth.........................In using my chrony with my mzl I have found that the BP(Elephant,Swiss,Goex,) are pretty consistant for speed if I am doing my part.  Last spring I was using 2f Elephant in my 53 Tryon.(.520 ball,.015 patch with Neetsfoot oil lub,80 grn charge)  Out of five shots,the deviation was not more that 20 fps .  That is not bad at all.  Goez seemed to give me the largest deviation but it was still very little compaired to some that I have seen.  In checking the wanna bees like Pyro,777,the were not as consistant.  I was getting speed jumps or drop backs as much as 50fps with the same loading techniques.  Stay safe.......King.  Seeing that I have 50 lbs of the stuff(black powder) in 25 can count of each of the above three brands,it pays to shoot it a lot. :roll:

[Triple Se7en]

King

Swiss is more potent than Goex.. much more than Elephant in every chrony test I've read except yours today.
Deviations with substitutes like 777 are common unless you are bore-brush swabbing after every shot. For example, with loads over the recommended 85 grains loose FF 777, crud rings form easily just in front of the breechplug & harden within moments after firing. If not removed, the bullet will not engage the rifling properly upon ignition -- the main reason for 777 bullet flyers, target shifts & chrony deviations.

Most chrony tests I've read that used all blackpowder/substitutes in random tests rate the powders in this top to bottom listing based on most energy/velocity.

777
Swiss
Pyrodex
Goex
American Pioneer
Elephant

[KING]

:grin:  Triple Se7en.  I did not think that I said one powder was more potent than the others,but I do agree with what you have said.  In re reading my post I think it is very possible for someone to think that I was using the same weight of powder or volumetric charge and inturn an inferance of power/speed could be construed.  Thanks for pointing that out.  What I was attempting to inform about  about was speed variations between the powders that I was using(standard deviation) for each load.  I got very consistant results with the elephant that I am shooting.  I use 80 grns of that which inturn equals about 63 of Swiss to get the same speed out the projectile.  You gets more shots per pound of Swiss,but Swiss is about 14 bucks per pound and Elephant is about 6 bucks.  I have tried using Goex with some limited results from it.  Most of that had been shot in my BPCR rifles in my .45-70.  Elephant is very dirty to shoot and requires a brushed bbl with a clean patch run down it for it to keep its consistancy.  In my BPCR using a 530 grn Lyman  with SPG Lube 80 of Elephant gave me about 1050 and very small groups.  The 63 of Swiss gave me about 1140 for speed and good groups also.  70 of Goex in 2f was giving me about  1100fps also.  I have not attempted to use any of the  American Pioneer powder as of yet but any info would be appreciated.   It is just that each rifle might shoot one powder a little better than the other in the MZL.  With the BPCR the Elephant at 80 grs will shoot two of the projectiles that I use under an inch at 100 yards.  The Goex will do about the same with two of the others and the Swiss will pretty much maintain what the others are doing and do it in a much cleaner manner.  Even when cleaning after each shot,the Pyro and the 777 just do not seem to be as consistant and give me a lot wider variations on projectile speed than the others do.   What it boils down to was that on my test I was getting less projectile speed variation with the Elephant.  Less speed deviation means more accuracy.  I just have not found the wanna bees to be as consistant as the BP in my loading tests.  :roll:     stay safe..........King

[johnt]

American Pioneer is the old white jug "CleanShot". Clean Shot came out with a pellet form and was seued out of business by Hodgdon for paten breech.
 It's the same powder but different name and only available loose.

[Triple Se7en]

Just curious King

You are right about your gun liking one powder over the other. Speaking of deviations, I have read alot of complaints about Goex recently. When shooters run out of powder, the next can they buy has a different lot number & the new powder disrupts their prior groupings with the same bullet. A couple of guys couldn't hit their targets anymore with a new can of Goex.

Also, just by chance, were you using that SPG lube in the barrel when you shot 777??

Also, you are getting off real cheap having Elephant shoot so well in your rifle. Alot of people love the American Pioneer too... some say "the bigger the bore & the bigger the bullet -- the better American Pioneer works"

[crow_feather]

I shoot black powder (fff) in my 54 Tryon and my 50 Lyman trade flinter.  I never have to clean my rifle during shooting sessions and my last shot goes down as easy as the first.  10% water soluable machine oil, 90% water (or 15%/85%) with a dash of liquid dish detergent.  It's called moose milk and it works extremely well. I have used this for over twenty five years and I have never stuck a ball.  BUT, you must never put oil in your barrel.  Clean your barrel with very hot soapy water to get out all oil products - dry and lube with a non-patroleum product.  Your barrel will clean easily and you will never need to clean a barrel while at the range. IT WORKS!

You have to wonder how those trappers managed to live so long without pyrodex, 777, sabots and buffler bullets.  Did they clean their rifles after every shot? I think not.  Did they shoot 2" groups at 100 yds. Not!  They made their rifles shoot in the rain and snow.  Their rifles didn't misfire and they hit what they were shooting at most of the time.

[KING]

:-D      Johnt....................thanks for the info on the Pioneer powder.  Now that you mention that information I remember it,but have never tried it.  Musta had a brain fart or something like that,when I was going down 777s list of same.  Not unusual at times ya know.  As for using SPG,I only us it in my BPCR guns.  The rest of the time I am using pure Neetsfoot oil.  It is not an oil as in a petroleum base,but instead made from cattle hooves and bones.  It is important that you get the pure stuff,not the Neetsfoot  compound.  It does not turn into tar when it is used as a patching lube.  I get complaints about Goex all of the time.  This problem was supposed to have been taken care of last year I thought  As a matter of fact,I just got off the phone with one of the guys that shoots both mzl and the BPCR.  We were talking about the same problem.  I had purchased a case last year,and found that the 2f and 1f did very well at times.  As for the Cartridge grade,I could not make it work in my guns to my satisfaction at all(BPCR).  As a point of interest,I did manage to turn up a couple of Curtis & Harvey cans.............Gunna try that in a couple of weeks in my front stuffers