Author Topic: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008  (Read 1486 times)

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« on: December 27, 2008, 06:03:14 AM »
Four pairs of cannons.
First location.  Two pairs of cannons.
There are some 'gimme' clues as to where it's from.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2008, 06:04:09 AM »
pix 2 of 6
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2008, 06:04:50 AM »
pix 3 of 6
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2008, 06:05:42 AM »
pix 4 of 6
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2008, 06:06:23 AM »
pix 5 of 6
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2008, 06:07:08 AM »
Pix 6 of first 6
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Double D

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2008, 06:28:28 AM »
Location Georgia State Capital Grounds.


Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2008, 06:31:18 AM »
Location Georgia State Capital Grounds.

BINGO
In front of the capitol.  Note the statue of J.C. in the background and the lettering on the building.

Any hint to the history behind the two pairs of cannons?
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Double D

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2008, 06:45:35 AM »
Didn't find much on the cannons...other than the one has the coat of arms for the State of Georgia. Central Presbyterian Church and state of Georgia parking signs pointed to location

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2008, 10:57:40 AM »
If I'd seen caught the idiot defacing that rare GA bronze gun by carving into it I would have stuffed his head in the muzzle.  It would probably fit.

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2008, 11:12:17 AM »
BOTH of them were carved up. 

It was about a 4" bore.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2008, 12:31:44 PM »
The vandalism of those fine rare bronze guns is just one more reason they should be kept inside.  Vandalism, theft, acid rain corrosion, etc. etc.  Put some fiberglass replicas outisde if there's some historic preservation rules problem.  There are many complete idiots running around who have no appreciation of history or antiques, often due to the lack the mental capacity to understand such things.  I wonder if the architect of the GA State Capitol is even aware of this vandalism-I doubt it.

I can guarantee you that if a GA State-marked CW bronze cannon came up for sale it would bring $250K and possibly a lot more.  Yet probably 5 minutes and a jacknife in the hands of one of these idiots has ruined two of them.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2009, 07:02:43 AM »
Quote
Any hint to the history behind the two pairs of cannons?

Okay Cat, it would seem that everyone has been given more than their fair allotment of time to come up with some history on these guns and not been too successful; so how about cluing us in on some of the more interesting details?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2009, 12:47:24 PM »
I don't have a clue as to what they are, I just took the pix!

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2009, 08:45:22 AM »
 The first two guns that Cat has pictured are identified as bronze Spanish cannons that were cast in Seville in 1856. I can believe the provenance that is given, of the two cannons being presented to the state by the Navy Dept. to honor a Georgian military officer who was involved in the Spanish-American War, but I'm a little incredulous about that casting date. It seems to me that the profile of these barrels and the lower placement of the trunnions on the tube would suggest an earlier date of manufacture.

http://sos.georgia.gov/archives/tours/html/spanish_cannons.htm


The second two cannons are Model 1841 12-pounder howitzers that were manufactured by the Cyrus Alger & Co. foundry in Boston, Massachusetts. These two bronze howitzers (expressly numbered 1 & 2) were delivered to the Georgia Military Institute in 1854, and were intended to fill out the GMI's artillery battery that also consisted of four C.A. & Co. made "6-pounder guns, light" which have since come to be known as "Cadet guns". Alger contracts show that $50.00 was added to the charge of each gun to inscribe the chases with "Georgia Military Institute" and cast the Great Seal of Georgia on a raised shield between the trunnions. There were two similar orders that were filled for the Cadet Battery of Virginia Mil. Inst. and a half battery (two 6-pounder Cadet guns and one 12-pounder howitzer) for the Arkansas Military Inststitute. These cannons that were intended for the drill and instruction of the cadets of these military schools were at the onset of the Civil War, all commandeered into active duty by the CSA.

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2009, 03:05:04 PM »
THANKS, BoomJ, for listing the history of these cannons!

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2009, 01:50:31 AM »
Quote
The first two guns that Cat has pictured are identified as bronze Spanish cannons that were cast in Seville in 1856. I can believe the provenance that is given, of the two cannons being presented to the state by the Navy Dept. to honor a Georgian military officer who was involved in the Spanish-American War, but I'm a little incredulous about that casting date. It seems to me that the profile of these barrels and the lower placement of the trunnions on the tube would suggest an earlier date of manufacture.


The St. of GA description is of course way way off.  First the cannons shown aren't bronze they are iron, then they are 18th C., not 1856.  I suspect the two Spanish bronze cannons were there before scrapping then replaced with some iron tubes found somewhere else.  Virtually all the Spanish cannons brought back from the Philippines were fine bronze pieces, no one wanted pitted old iron stuff that we already had in abundance in the US ca. 1900.  A little research will pull up the lists of the cannons given to GA from the US, that were distributed to the various states etc. ca. 1900.  These lists show most of the markings, the length, bore, name of the gun, etc.

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2009, 04:54:05 AM »
Quote
The first two guns that Cat has pictured are identified as bronze Spanish cannons that were cast in Seville in 1856. I can believe the provenance that is given, of the two cannons being presented to the state by the Navy Dept. to honor a Georgian military officer who was involved in the Spanish-American War, but I'm a little incredulous about that casting date. It seems to me that the profile of these barrels and the lower placement of the trunnions on the tube would suggest an earlier date of manufacture.


The St. of GA description is of course way way off.  First the cannons shown aren't bronze they are iron, then they are 18th C., not 1856.  I suspect the two Spanish bronze cannons were there before scrapping then replaced with some iron tubes found somewhere else.  Virtually all the Spanish cannons brought back from the Philippines were fine bronze pieces, no one wanted pitted old iron stuff that we already had in abundance in the US ca. 1900.  A little research will pull up the lists of the cannons given to GA from the US, that were distributed to the various states etc. ca. 1900.  These lists show most of the markings, the length, bore, name of the gun, etc.

 For some strange reason, I had a premonition that the first half of my post might end up preoccupying your thoughts. You know, now that I take a second long look at those barrells with the aid of enlargement I'll be darned if I don't now concur with your opinion. Both of those barrels are evidently made of cast iron; that ammount, and type of corrosion just doesn't seem plausible on bronze, even if one had the certain evidence that the guns had spent a considerable ammount of time buried in the ground or immersed in seawater which is the one feasible way that experts in this field of study think that the 'dreaded bronze disease' can have an affect upon this type of copper based metal. It might seem to a reasonable mind, that the slow and much milder corrosion that would be caused by the fall of 'acid rain' could never be held responsible for this much damage in the time span that an educated guess would alot to this exposure. Doesn't polluted rain's history only extend back less than half a century (I think the first writings and news reports of rain ruining the paint on cars, and destroying trees in Germany's Black Forest would be placed at about that time)? In any case, some time ago, when I contacted the head conservator of one of our military museums he made the analogy that in his opinion, tomato paste had about the same corrosive power that acid rain does, this of course doesn't mean that the acid content in tomato paste wouldn't be harmful if placed, and kept on the surface of a bronze object. I apologize for going off on this tangent, I suppose if truth be told I'm only trying to cover up for my lack of concentration when originally making observations on these barrels (I apparently had "bronze disease" on the brain when I was looking at these two guns, how else could I have come to the silly conclusion that they were bronze painted with black paint). I just looked at the barrels again, and now that you've made it clear to me that they are indeed made of cast iron, I can plainly see the rust spots showing through where the black paint has fallen away; it's amazing how figuratively blind a person can be, even when looking directly at an object of great interest to himself. Anyway, thanks for the correction.

I suspect the two Spanish bronze cannons were there before scrapping then replaced with some iron tubes found somewhere else.

Of course it would be foolish to argue about this, having the understanding that it is conjecture, but let's just for a moment try and imagine this wild scenario: Lieutenant T.M. Brumby is gifted with the two original bronze beauties, and then lets the state display them, but as he slowly comes to the conclusion these guns are actually his personal property, feelings of the rights of ownership overcome him, and he demands to have the barrells back. The two cannons are at this very moment resting under an old unused workbench, their dulled bronze hidden by a dust laden tarp, their bores filled with nesting spiders, and the present owners (relatives of Brumby) know absolutely nothing about neither their history nor monetary worth. Holy Moly, just think of the moolah!
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2009, 02:54:30 PM »
Amazng!  How little I knew when taking the pictures!

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2009, 03:51:42 PM »
Cat,

 That may well be so, but you can take pride in the fact that you took good pictures, and it's a nice feature that when posted they can be enlarged once, and then again to a close up. With my budget (actually free) pic hosting sight package, I can't do that fancy stuff.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2009, 01:06:34 PM »
Thanks, by posting one per post I can keep the size/resolution of each picture high.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Mystery cannons - Dec 2008
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2009, 01:25:32 PM »
thats very good that you do so ,
when its interesting pictures its always good when its possible to enlarge them
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry