Author Topic: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest  (Read 5219 times)

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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2008, 10:02:33 AM »
     Terry C.,  Yes exactly right, Allen too.  These testing methods are important to the improvments in the metal used in the casting.

Allen, regarding #10, forget all about inventing new, esoteric machines like contour cutting shapers or planers.  You are correct in that the tooling was shaped likr the shape duplicator pin array that I am holding, but this tooling is used on what machine tool that existed in that era?

               AND....................What "condition" during use, caused those marks??

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Terry C.

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2008, 10:04:04 AM »
What has not been, and possibly can't be, established is why the barrel was left this way. It should have been faced off after it was tested. Maybe it failed?

And for that matter, why was it tested after it was bored? As has been pointed out, boring was a time-consuming processes.


Maybe it was a forensic test, on a barrel taken out of service. Hence the lack of need for cleanup?

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2008, 10:34:45 AM »
     Terry C.,   They were all left that way; it was a badge of acceptance for quite a few years.  All the cannon we have seen that were riflled, but unbanded were marked that way.  Not to confuse the issue, but some had coupons removed from their trunnions as well.  Tested after boring yes, but BEFORE rifling.  Just speculating, but just maybe they would not rifle a tube unless the density of metal met certain criteria.  It's pretty obvious that the pressures were going up when these conversion rifles (32 pdr. smoothbore gun to 64 pdr. rifle or 6.4" conversion rifles were fired.  They may have been picky about which ones they would take a chance on and convert to rifles.

     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Terry C.

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2008, 12:05:58 PM »
That's a new one on me, but then I haven't seen a lot of CSA unbanded iron rifles (as in none) since I've gotten to where I would recognize it as such. For a boy from the south, that's a shame. :(

The missing piece of the puzzle for me was that this is a conversion. But after going back and looking at the dates, it's obvious that this gun was not rifled when it was manufactured. It was tested to verify it's integrity before conversion.

If we had an emoticon that slaps itself on the forehead, that's the one I would need now.

I have gotten my daily GBO education. ;D

Offline Rickk

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2008, 12:16:39 PM »
to add a bit to my #9 answer...

While I rarely use it any more, I do have a copper rivet head forming tool. It has a domed hollow shape on the end, and after rouging out the rivet head with a small hammer, the tool is placed over the rivet and smacked with a hammer to perfectly finish the dome of the rivet head.

Likewise, a forming tool that finished the raw copper slug to the final shape could have been used. It would have reduced the skill requirement considerably for getting the proper shape. I doubt the tool would have been used for the entire operation, as it would have required to much force to shape the entire copper slug all at once. It probably was roughed out with a hammer, and then possibly finished with a forming tool.

I doubt a file would have been used as it would have introduced an additional variable. If the holes were all drilled to the same depth, and the raw copper slugs were made uniformly, then beating it into final shape without any removal of metal would have resulted in a uniform end result.

Rick

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2008, 12:24:43 PM »
   Terry, you have no idea how many times I could have used an emoticon like that myself......plenty!

Thanks for that extra info Rick, the forming tool makes sense.  Files would be really slow too. 

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2008, 01:55:32 PM »
manufacturability.  Good thinking through the process.
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Offline KABAR2

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2008, 06:03:01 PM »
# 8

Hmmmm Roman numerals.......... A "7"..............

perchance is this a 7" banded Brooke rifle?
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Victor3

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2008, 07:10:47 PM »
     
 .......please take a look at that tool I am holding and think simple, quick and cheap, the 19th century way.  This tooling is DIRECTLY related to those interesting circular score marks on the big Rodman gun at Fort Knox.

Press on,

T&M
     

 The marks appear to have been made by a chattering radius form tool on a lathe (yeah, that's it, a lathe. Like I said before about pic #1. Remember? ;)).

 It's difficult to form a radius with a tool like this without some chatter because so much cutting edge is in contact with the workpiece; the tool wants to push over the material rather than cut. Then it digs in after pressure is relieved, causing just the type of marks seen in the pic.

 As far as your question as to what "condition" would have casused this, the main problem is rigidity of the machine/setup. Some might say that the sharpness of the tool would be the main concern, but I've seen sharp tools, dull tools, fancily ground tools, high-speed and carbide tools ALL make these marks if the setup is not solid.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline Rickk

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2008, 04:22:06 AM »
I had an alternative though for #9 last night.

Could the copper blanks have been cast into pretty much final shape? A simple two-piece mold could have made them. If so, a few wacks with a forming tool would have seated it in the hole and expanded the shank inside the hole to fit snugly. That would make it a very quick assembly operation.

Rick

Offline Double D

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2008, 06:41:57 AM »
I had an alternative though for #9 last night.

Could the copper blanks have been cast into pretty much final shape? A simple two-piece mold could have made them. If so, a few wacks with a forming tool would have seated it in the hole and expanded the shank inside the hole to fit snugly. That would make it a very quick assembly operation.

Rick

Or could the blanks just have been made in a stamp machine?

Offline KABAR2

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2008, 09:41:14 AM »
#9 "We photographed this 8” Armstrong Shell at Fort Fisher in Kure Beach, NC in December of 2005 while we were making an engineering drawing of the original tube on loan from the United States Military Academy at West Point, NY.  What tool shaped these copper studs?  Why shape them like this?  What shape is most likely for the portion of the stud under the shell’s exterior?"



I am thinking the cast iron shell had the holes pre-cast, and most likely these were cone shaped so the copper studs would form keys and not be ripped out by the force of the being fired,

having to have consistency these were probably pressed into place and then the shell was probably run through a swedge  to form the correct angle for the rifling  the swedging would also fully seat the studs crushing them

into the cone shaped key to lock them in it would also give them the correct angle of attack for the rifling, not the studs do not form straight lines but are staggered to match the rifling,  I understand that many of these shells were also lead coated to provide minimum windage between the shell and the bore to prevent gas blow by which helped erode the bore,

latter I believe a gas check was used instead. as to why shape them like this was so that they would run properly in the rifling grooves. I think you have photo's showing how there were stages of rifling to ease loading and to center the shell.


A quick drawing of what I am talking about........of course all studs would be in place for each operation & not done seperatly
I am showing the steps taken to seat the blank and then swedge.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2008, 01:03:54 PM »
     KABAR2 got 1/2 of #10 and the perfect remainder of the answer was provided by Victor3.  Thank you both; there is some interesting info there on that one.

      Rickk gets full credit for #9 for being there very quickly with a viable answer and then, in true engineering fashion, further refining his answer while searching for perfection.  Thank Ricks, good job.  Thanks to Double D and KABAR2 also for providing alternative viable answers.

Still OPEN are #6, and 1/2 credit is still available on #2, 3 and 8.

Press on,

T&M

P.S.      I'm going to take my grandson to see the Denver Zoo Lights display in 45 minutes, but I should be back at 9:30 or so.
     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2008, 02:01:27 PM »
#6 - I'll guess that the 'circular scratch marks' are a measurement from one end or the other that was put onto the tube when being turned.

I'll also stick my neck out and posit that they correspond to some dimension (perhaps of wall thickness, O.D., or for locating another feature - internal or external)
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Terry C.

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2008, 03:19:40 PM »
Those "circular scratches" look a lot like something I used to do when turning parts on a lathe. At various points I would cut into the stock to the desired diameter, then cut away the metal between the scribes.

This is especially useful when free shaping a contoured piece and only a few diametrical references are given.

Except in my case the scribe marks had to be completely removed, lest they become stress risers.

Offline dan610324

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2008, 04:55:20 PM »
# 6

they  didnt have carbide tools , not even high speed steel .
they used handforged hardened tools . grinded by hand .
could been just an miss when changing or regrinding the tool during the last finishing cut and when they start again .
maybe its just less then 1/100th of an inch in diameter difference , its hard to say from only that picture .
could also be from when they changed from the sraight cylindrical shape and started to make the radius .

I know from experiance that it could be difficult to make perfect surface when you need to change tools if you have an old machine in not so good condition .
some 20 years ago I was working on an very old lathe ( built in 1938 ) .
we was turning drying cylinders to paper machines , it was cast iron . 6 - 8 feet diameter and 25 - 37 feet long
whenever you changed the carbide you got an small difference in diameter every time .
it looked like an cirkular mark on the finished surface , very similar to those marks .
we didnt care as this was just an rough turning on the outside , they should be grinded after the assembling . we had tolerances of +/- 0,2 mm
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Offline Double D

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2008, 05:24:11 PM »
               6.   The dismounted 15” Rodman Gun at Fort Knox in Prospect, Maine displays 5 or 6 of these circular score marks on the breech and first reinforce.  What made these tool marks?  What purpose do they have?


 

I think Terry is on the right track.  Those are the incremental machine marks from where the cutting tool was started and stopped to cut each increment of the radius. At each stop the pattern for the tracing attachment was changed for the next increment in the radius.  If you can't dazzle them with footwork, then baffle them...

Offline Victor3

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2008, 07:00:49 PM »
#6 - I'll guess that the 'circular scratch marks' are a measurement from one end or the other that was put onto the tube when being turned.

I'll also stick my neck out and posit that they correspond to some dimension (perhaps of wall thickness, O.D., or for locating another feature - internal or external)

 I agree. The lines appear to be too shallow, precise and uniform about the circumference to be residual reference marks used to mark one machining operation to the next. If they were, they could (and would, IMO) have been easily removed while the bbl was being machined.

 Methinks they were put on after the OD machining process was completed, and were made for either some kind of inspection operation (such as measuring the diameter at specific points along the tube), or, since the marks are only at the rear end, were put there for the convenience of the guys doing the boring operation so they would be able to mark their tool length to know how far from the muzzle they would have to make the depth of internal features (steps? chamber depth?) inside.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2008, 08:22:58 PM »
     That's why I like this Mortar and Cannon board so much, this bunch and other bunches of members can fathom a fairly obtuse problem and figure out a solution to it without biting each others head off.  In this particular case we have one element of the best, most complete answer provided by Double D coming from each and every member who posted on #6, the score marks on the 15" Rodman Gun.
   
     Specifically we have this from our savy East Coast moderator:   
#6 - I'll guess that the 'circular scratch marks' are a measurement from one end or the other that was put onto the tube when being turned.
     Quite so, before placing the first form tool in a carriage mounted, special mono-block fixture, the machinist would place a special locator gage over the trunnions and it's other end would point to a spot where the right edge of the first form tool would go.  A light groove would be single pointed there as a guide for the right hand spur on the form tool.  The left side had a spur too and this would guide the second form tool to a correct start position, etc, etc.

     
Those "circular scratches" look a lot like something I used to do when turning parts on a lathe. At various points I would cut into the stock to the desired diameter, then cut away the metal between the scribes.

     Although I don't remember reading that this was specifically done, you could not be too far from the truth if you surmised that this was done on the very first section to be cleaned up with the first form tool.  The reason is that if you merely formed that first surface without setting some specified depth, you might go through almost all of your set-ups, only to have the last form tool fail to clean up the rough, as cast surface.  Doing all that work over would make the set-up man look like a fool.  Most likely he wouldn't let that happen.  In this case an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. 

# 6
could also be from when they changed from the sraight cylindrical shape and started to make the radius .

     Dan is correct here, where the cylinder or straight taper is tangent to the first part of the breech radius, you find a score mark.  You don't find any of these marks within the cylindrical area OR just after the radius starts.  They are exactly WHERE the radius is tangent.

     
               6.   The dismounted 15” Rodman Gun at Fort Knox in Prospect, Maine displays 5 or 6 of these circular score marks on the breech and first reinforce.  What made these tool marks?  What purpose do they have?


 

I think Terry is on the right track.  Those are the incremental machine marks from where the cutting tool was started and stopped to cut each increment of the radius. At each stop the pattern for the tracing attachment was changed for the next increment in the radius.  If you can't dazzle them with footwork, then baffle them...

     Sorry fellows, but I did not see that drift into "Tracing Attachment" land.  I've never seen one of these used with a form tool DD.  They are used to single point a profile into a surface.  We have seen chatter marks on the 10 and 15 inch Rodman tubes too in various places, a very good indication of a broad form tool being used on a relatively lightly constructed finishing lathe.
HOWEVER, the very essence of an understanding of what these marks indicate is found within his sentence I have converted to bold Italics.

T&M
since the marks are only at the rear end, were put there for the convenience of the guys doing the boring operation so they would be able to mark their tool length to know how far from the muzzle they would have to make the depth of internal features (steps? chamber depth?) inside.

    They could well have been used for this purpose as a secondary, added benefit.  Actually, this seems very logical to us.

DD, you correctly answered this one with that very succinct, one line answer.  Professional writers could not express this concept in fewer words. 

T&M

     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Victor3

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2008, 11:09:25 PM »
"We have seen chatter marks on the 10 and 15 inch Rodman tubes too in various places, a very good indication of a broad form tool being used on a relatively lightly constructed finishing lathe."
 

M&T,

 I'm not one to pick a nit, but I'm trying to understand how such apparantly precise in depth, shallow, multiple scribe mark could have been left after the turning operations you've described. Even one mark left in the uniform condition you show would be unlikely IMHO, let alone more than one. Under real-world conditions, there should always be mis-matches in such turning operations due to variables such as tool grind/wear, setup/operator error, and less than optimal machine rigididty/condition.

 Scaled down to a manageable 6" diameter bar, I don't imagine I could leave such perfect looking witness marks even using a heavy, new, modern lathe with roller-bearings in the headstock with perfectly ground tools. I could probably do it with a single-point tool and a tracer, but not with the multiple 1-2" wide cutting face (scaled down for a 6" bbl) form tools that would be required.

 Considering that you describe the tangential radii as being cut using very large (and most likely chattering) form tools of primitive material/grind on a fairly light, primitive finishing lathe (with babbit bearings in the headstock) similar to the one in Pic #1, I find it a bit hard to believe that any operation using this machine/setup/tools could leave such marks so perfectly intact and sharp.

 The only plausible alternative I can see here is that the marks were scored into the bbl after form tools and subsequent filing and/or abrasives were employed to blend mis-matches.

 Is there a possibility that the marks you describe as being made for use as reference points for machining were obliterated during the machining process, and that the marks seen were actually made in a subsequent operation for a different reason that is not documented in your reference material?

 As machinists familiar with similar operations, what is most likely in your opinion?
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2008, 12:35:46 AM »
To pose a question about the scratch marks - could they have been used for two purposes - one to begin/end the form tool and two that of establishing a depth of cut - such that when left but not finished out would prove established diameter.  Musings of an idle mind.

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Offline Victor3

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2008, 01:35:01 AM »
To pose a question about the scratch marks - could they have been used for two purposes - one to begin/end the form tool and two that of establishing a depth of cut - such that when left but not finished out would prove established diameter.  Musings of an idle mind.

 Good thought!

 The marks would have had to be left with quite a bit of material proud of the bottom of the scores, concerning what must have been a somewhat rough machining operation using form tools.

 In this scenario, skilled hand-profiling using files and/or abrasives would be required while the bbl was turning in the lathe (similar to that done on a wood lathe). This would also account for the lack of chatter marks in the picture, since they would have been smoothed out with the handwork.

 Would this type of handwork have been done on these bbls? I guess it must have taken quite a bit of time if it was.

 M&T?
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline dan610324

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2008, 08:33:11 AM »
I would guess that they didnt had any radius formed tools ,
but just followed an template stuck to the lathe.

thats the same we did with the inside of the drying cylinders

when you turn the cylindrical outside and have an machine with low rigidity and stop the feed you will have an mark because you will have less preassure on the toolpost and it will dig an slightly deeper mark there .
if you then align with the new tool on the turned surface you will have it left there after finishing the radius
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Offline Double D

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2008, 09:10:55 AM »
M&T,

I'm not sure I understand. 

The two marks in the picture appear to be 10 to 12 inches appart.  For discussion purposes  lets say 10 inches. 

Are you saying that they  had a 10 inch wide tool shaped for each varying radius segment?  Kind of like a big 10 inch muzzle crowning tool?

Offline dan610324

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2008, 09:19:02 AM »
absolutely not , not even modern machines would be able to handle that
Dan Pettersson
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Offline Terry C.

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2008, 09:42:00 AM »
some 20 years ago I was working on an very old lathe ( built in 1938 ) .
we was turning drying cylinders to paper machines

You weren't by any chance working for SCAPA, or one of their affiliates were you?

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2008, 09:51:44 AM »
Take it easy guy's, it'll all come out in the wash.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dan610324

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2008, 10:12:55 AM »
scapa ?? never heard of them .
I was working at KMV , Karlstad Mekaniska Verkstad
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Terry C.

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2008, 10:38:07 AM »
SCAPA, aka Scapa Group, aka Scapa Dryers.

A worldwide corporation that manufactures all sorts of paper manufacturing products and equipment. They're big in your part of the world. If it has to do with paper manufacturing, SCAPA probably has their hands in it (or is affiliated with the hands that be).

My late father worked for the local Scapa Dryers plant, as a weaver, manufacturing dryer felt for paper mills for over 30 years.


We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread...

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2008, 12:25:54 PM »
...
We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread...

. . . meanwhile, back at the ranch .  .  .  .

(I'm watching an old B&W John Wayne movie right now.)
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)