Author Topic: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest  (Read 5217 times)

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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2008, 06:17:29 PM »
     O.K. fellows, I'm back.  Now the grandson has not only seen the Denver Zoo Lights last night, but several scrap metal yards and engineering drawings and white oak scraping today.  You just can't start a kid's real education too early!

     So, to Victor, Dan, Douglas, Tim, Terry, Allen and everyone else, there is no evidence better than photo evidence to FINALLY explain what words obviously cannot do.  First, specifically to Douglas:

M&T,
I'm not sure I understand. 
The two marks in the picture appear to be 10 to 12 inches appart.  For discussion purposes  lets say 10 inches. 
Are you saying that they  had a 10 inch wide tool shaped for each varying radius segment?  Kind of like a big 10 inch muzzle crowning tool?

     Yes, that's EXACTLY what I am saying.  Think of it this way.  This is not some normal size lathe tool with a 5 deg. positive rake whose purpose is to CUT metal rapidly.  This is far more of a scraper with perhaps a 1 deg rake and just enough clearance angle to avoid rubbing.
These tools were described to me by a 20 year veteran of the nuclear industry, custom vessel cast iron machinist.  He said some of these were form tool machined with ancient equipment and the tooling for profile cutting was 3/4" thick plate with the shape to be cut carefully milled and the edges ground to that a near perfectly smooth surface would result that would require very little abrasive application.

     Now as I said, the real proof that these marks are cause by special locator spurs at either end of the form tool are the fact that almost all of these marks are not continuous and some have been almost completely removed by subsequent abrasive machining or polishing operations.  If these were witness or scribe marks for an inspection operation, then they would be continuous as they would certainly would be applied over completely finished surfaces and they would be applied carefully by hand with the muscles of the hand supplying the perfect amount of spring action to make sure that the scribe reached heavily sanded areas and perfectly round areas alike.

Take a good look at these marks on this 10" Rodman at the Veteran's Monument in Wareham, MA, and if you don't see what I'm talking about, I give up.  I have more photo of the same type of thing from Exeter, NH, and Biddeford, Maine, but these Wareham pics are the clearest. 

The monument; our example gun is on the right side.  Oct. 2008.




The edge of the unturned trunnion area and further to the right, the form tool spur mark partially abraded away during finishing.




A closer view of the partial line which is about .025" deep on the close side and non-existant on the top of the tube.



Regards,

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Victor3

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2008, 08:21:20 PM »
 Okay, M&T. I can see that now.

 I think it would have been better if you used this picture (or another that was not taken at 90 degrees to the surface) in your quiz rather than the original one you posted. Your quiz pic appeared to have the marks as being very uniform about the circumference and didn't clearly (to me anyway) show any mis-match between the machined segments. They appeared to be clean and continuous.

 Just to clarify for others here - M&T not talking about the large mis-match near the trunnions in the pic (which is not an intersection of two form turning tools), but the smaller, shallow mark lower in the picture.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2008, 07:23:14 AM »
     It's a real pleasure to announce this Contest's winner at this time.  KABAR2, Allen is hereby declared the Contest winner and has, at this time, the title of Foundry Machinist Extraordinaire conferred upon him and is to be accorded all the rights and privileges attached thereto.

     Thank you to ALL of you who participated and a special thank you to one of you who challenged us to provide better answers and to explain the reasons behind certain answers, Victor3 and to two of you who allowed us to see your thoughts as they were formed, Terry C. and Cat Whisperer, Tim.  You guys shared lots of knowledge and some very inciteful thoughts with us and we much appreciate it.

The Contest Score Card

1.   KABAR2     Full
2.   KABAR2     1/2
3.   KABAR2     1/2
4.   KABAR2     1/2
     Terry C.     1/2
5.   KABAR2      Full
6.   DoubleD     1/2
     Cat Whisp   1/2
7.   Rickk          Full
8.   Cat Whisp   1/2
9.   Rickk          Full
10. KABAR2       1/2
     Victor3        1/2

     Now that the contest is over, we are still wondering if someone out there would like to tell us how the foundry machinists at West Point Foundry could remove the cast iron from a 6.4" Parrott 100 pdr. bore in about 20 hours when it took the Confederate foundry machinists at Richmond's, Tredegar Iron Works 900 hours to do the same thing with one of the Brooke 6.4" or 7" bores?  It must be the tooling used and methods, right?   What Tooling?   What methods?

     Seemingly unrelated, this photo is a pretty good clue.




Think about it,

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline RocklockI

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2008, 08:00:48 AM »
Water Core?
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Terry C.

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2008, 08:02:09 AM »
That looks like it was cut with a hollow cored drill and then broken out.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2008, 08:28:16 AM »
     Thank you Terry!  Right on.  Hollow core drill or Trepanning Tool, then broken out.  Screw activated wedges at the bottom of the core fractured it and then you hook a team of mules to the core and YEE HAA!! drag it out.

 RocklockI,  when I last asked this, I did mention that, at this time, both sides were casting solid and machining to remove the material, as this was prior to WPF going over to the Rodman, WATER CORE, hollow casting process which they did at around # 225 or 250 of about 550 parrott 100 pdrs. made.  If you ever build a cast iron foundry in your backyard, hire a good plumber to make darn sure those water fittings are TIGHT if you decide to use the Rodman process!  Steam build up in the wrong place could push things around a bit.   :o :o

Regards,

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline KABAR2

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2008, 10:38:17 AM »
M&T Thanks,  ;D

This was a fun contest where one had to think a bit, drag out long forgot reference material & think some more.......... I tried to scan the section on the cannon finishing in the Farrow's Military Encyclopedia but
it kept reducing it to where it is too small to read, when I have more time I want to fix that and scan some of the info in there it will make for some interesting read / discussions.

Happy New Year Everyone!


Allen <><
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline GGaskill

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2008, 11:46:27 AM »
I did mention that, at this time, both sides were casting solid and machining to remove the material, as this was prior to WPF going over to the Rodman, WATER CORE, hollow casting process which they did at around # 225 or 250 of about 550 parrott 100 pdrs. made.

Cast iron Parrotts were notorious for bursting in front of the wrought iron reinforcing band.  Is there any documentation that the change to the wet core process made a difference in the tendency to burst?
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2008, 03:25:39 PM »
     We are in your debt, Allen for all that wonderful info you shared with us.  The following pics are presented in your honor:

Yes, it's that foundry lathe that you told us about.  I love to see those industrial museum displays of the old lathes and shapers, etc. with those overhead lineshafts and flapping and hissing leather belts going down to drive the flat-belt, step-pulleys just like this one.




The irony of these Maker's plates can't be fully understood by modern men.




This is an anvil that we photographed back in 2004.  It is in the Depot's front yard in your photo of the building.




And, a close-up reveals a lot more interesting info.





     George, I checked all my reference books in the last hour for just a little more information on this topic which Mike and I are very interested in also.  Other than a few tabulations of damaged guns, we see no link, direct or otherwise, to the difference in durability of these solid cast 100 pounders VS Water Core Rodman process cast guns.  I'm sure that you could find comparisons of Rodman's columbiads VS older, solid cast and bored columbiads if you could find a good book on the NEW Heavy Ordnance Casting Process.

     Years before he started producing his signature rifles, Robert Parrott, using Mallet's concept of "Planes of Weakness" in Ordnance, found that such planes could be mathematically calculated in predictions of flat bottom shell failure upon discharge of the piece, forming a wedge which jammed broken pieces of shell just forward of the shell's fuse resulting in a likely tube burst behind the trunnions.  Prophetic or what??   If I ever find any data which will enlighten us as to your question, I will post it here.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2008, 04:22:27 PM »
I think in Gibbon's (?) book on artillery, he says that most barrel failures involved cracks between the chamber and trunnions.  This seems to be an area that undergoes triaxial stress during firing, which is always a bad thing.  Getting rid of trunnions was a step in the right direction.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline KABAR2

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2008, 04:30:18 PM »
M&T thanks, and thanks for the added photo's by the looks of it I don't think it would take much to restore this to operational status,
it would be an OSHA nightmare but it would be nice to see it better cared for. I had a friend who owned a lumber yard on Long Island
it had been in the family since the 1880's the equipment was still driven by overhead belts, they had converted to gasoline in the 1900's
and during WWII they had converted to electric because of rationing. I always liked going there for my walnut and other hard woods which
they specialized in, sadly the part of the family that lived out of state but had an interest in it forced a sale, it was never the same after that.
My first big lathe was made by the Niles tool company it dated from the 1860's originally overhead belt driven it had been converted to
electricity in the early 1900's (last patent date 1903) it was a dual phase 110/220 motor. if memory serves me it had a 1" bore (small by today's
standards) and was 5ft between centers,  came with face plates & a 9 or 10" 4 jaw and a 3 jaw chuck, an ancient tool post grinder and dead centers,
I added a live center by re-contouring our modern taper to fit with the tool post grinder. Sadly when I left N.Y. I had to leave it behind.

Allen <><
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cornbelt

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2009, 05:37:42 AM »
Broach? EDM????  How'd they get the rifling?

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2009, 12:25:12 PM »
     Cornbelt,  No EDM back in the 1850s and 60s, and since these cannon were almost all muzzle loaders, a broach won't work, so the rifling was cut with a tool called a "hook cutter" held in a device called a rifling head which was driven by a machine, not surprisingly, called a Rifling Machine.  If you are interested you can learn a bit more about one and how it's built and used in the Thread called, "How to Build a Rifling Machine from A to Z" written by Mike and myself of Seacoast Artillery Company.  Click on the link below:

                                               http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php?topic=108012.0

                         
Regards,

Tracy and Mike

                                                             
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2009, 08:33:20 AM »
I did mention that, at this time, both sides were casting solid and machining to remove the material, as this was prior to WPF going over to the Rodman, WATER CORE, hollow casting process which they did at around # 225 or 250 of about 550 parrott 100 pdrs. made.

Cast iron Parrotts were notorious for bursting in front of the wrought iron reinforcing band.  Is there any documentation that the change to the wet core process made a difference in the tendency to burst?

I think in Gibbon's (?) book on artillery, he says that most barrel failures involved cracks between the chamber and trunnions.  This seems to be an area that undergoes triaxial stress during firing, which is always a bad thing.  Getting rid of trunnions was a step in the right direction.

     George,   Although I would have preferred a large body of evidence to prove beyond any doubt that Rodman's process made tubes of greater endurance, this statement from A Treatise on Ordnance and Naval Gunnerythat Boom J recently discovered, indicates clearly that ordnance experts of that day were convinced that his methods worked.

     The information on trunnions is very interesting also and is aligned with the info you wrote about.

Regards,  Tracy and Mike


144. Rodman's Plan of Hollow-Casting. His manner of casting may be briefly described, as follows: a core is formed on a water-tight cast-iron tube, closed at the lower end. By means of an interior tube in the centre of the other, and open at the lower end, a stream of water is conducted to the bottom of the larger tube, and rising through the circular space between the two, flows out at the top. A fire is built around the jacket at the bottom of the casting pit, and the mould kept at nearly red heat. In casting an eight-inch columbiad, twenty-five hours after casting, the core was withdrawn, and the flow of water continued through the space left by it for forty hours longer. The amount of water used was about fifty times the weight of the casting, and the heat imparted to the water, and carried off by it, was equal to 60° on the whole quantity used. For larger pieces, the amount of water and time of cooling are greater.

     All the guns cast in this way present a marked superiority in endurance over those cast solid in the ordinary way; and the eight-inch columbiad, mentioned above, sustained fifteen hundred rounds, including proof charges, without bursting, whilst another of the same calibre, cast solid, from the same metal, at the same time, and under precisely the same circumstances, failed at the seventy-third round.
It is evident how the metal of a piece cast in this manner avoids the defects pointed out as existing in a piece cast solid and allowed to cool in the old way; the merit of Captain Rodman's invention evidently consists in retarding the cooling of the outside by the application of heat, and hastening that of the inside by the application of cold, thus rendering the cooling of the whole mass more uniform, and preventing the formation of successive layers of different temperatures; or, if they are formed at all, making them commence on the interior, by which the strain is reversed, and actually made to add to the strength of the piece, the inner layer setting first, and each successive outer layer shrinking, in cooling, and setting around the layer inside of it.

145. Effect of the Trunnions. Another great cause of the want of strength in guns as at present formed, is the position of the trunnions, as regards the point to which the recoil of the gun is transmitted. The existence of these trunnions, by forming great re-entering angles on the surface of the gun, is of itself a great cause of weakness, as has already been explained; but their position on all pieces except mortars, has a weakening effect in a different way, which will now be explained. The force exerted to produce recoil, acting as a pressure against the interior of the breech, is propagated as a force tending to stretch the metal of the gun from the section y (fig. 29), in line of the axis toward the rig. 29. muzzle z; the rate of propagation being extremely rapid, so much so that, to the senses, the whole gun recoils together and as one mass, and at the same instant; yet in reality the first effect of the recoil is to elongate the gun, pushing out the breech part like one end of a spiral spring; the elongation traversing the whole length of the gun, and arriving at the muzzle, leaves it at its original length, assuming the elongation to have been far within the elastic limits of the metal. In its rapid progress, however, it has produced a strain in succession in the line of the axis upon every part of the gun.

146. If the gun have no trunnions, but, resting without friction, abut firmly against a fixed obstacle against the breech at x, then the segment in rear of the cartridge will be compressed by a force equal to the whole recoil in the direction y x, while the remaining parts of the gun will be extended by a force in the direction y z. which, at the transverse section y is equal to the recoil, and at the muzzle is equal to zero.

     If the gun be fixed rigidly on trunnions placed in the usual position at t, the strain tending to tear or break them off is equal to the whole work done by the recoil could, therefore, a convenient method be adopted for supporting guns upon their carriages without the use of trunnions, the recoil being received by a support entirely in rear of the piece, the trunnions could be dispensed with, and the gun very much strengthened in two ways. Muskets and other small arms are therefore arranged in the way best suited to their strength, and they can therefore be made much lighter than would otherwise be safe. The cannon of the ancients possessed this element of strength, for they were without trunnions, and transmitted the recoil to supports placed behind. In some of the new rifled guns, supplied to the navy, an attempt has been made by Captain Dahlgren to apply this principle by strapping on the trunnions.

 
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2009, 11:38:39 AM »
That is an interesting book BoomJ found.  Lots of neat stuff in it.  A lot of material in it is germane to our Conversation here.

I found a passages on wall thickness, trunnion sizes, carriage construction etc.  Neat resource.  For some reason, I have not been able to get the search or find function to work in this PDF.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: The Foundry Machinist Tool, Tool Marks and Tooling Contest
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2009, 06:26:07 PM »
Interesting (1500+ vs. 73) but I was really asking specifically about Parrott rifles since they had that bad reputation of bursting.  Also, one has to question the Columbiad that failed at 73 rounds because that kind of performance could not have been acceptable prior to Rodman's invention.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill