Bad day with the round ball...

[Stuart C.]

I hate to throw in the towel on anything, but today I couldn't keep three shots within six inches of each other at 50 yards!
I was resting the rifle a bit differently (just behind the left hand).  Everything else was the same.  Same load.  Shots going this way then that way.  Couldn't believe it.  Very frustrating.  The one thing that really started to get to me for the first time was the open sights; The site picture looks the same but for all I know with that fuzzy rear sight getting fuzzier, my vision just won't allow for more precision.  Frustrating.  Not a dam* group in the bunch.  I had total confidence in this load,gun but never shot it like this.  Rear sight is an appeture site (large hole, no insert) with standart dot front site.  Sorry had to vent.  ANY advice sor suggestions are appreciated.  I'll tell you I'm ready to get a scope.
S.

[beethoven]

You didnt say which rifle. Is the rear sight tight? A few months ago my Pedersoli/ Cabela Blue Ridge began tossing bullets around like a politician tells lies at a fundraiser. Sights were tight, load the same. Barrel screws came lose, allowing play between the barrel and the stock. Have a wedge key? Pins? Just a thought? Beethoven

[Stuart C.]

TC with a 1:66 twist deep groove. Same load.  Everything's tight.

I'd love to hear from folks with aging eyes if finally going to a scope really improved their groups.

Could the changing/deteriorating eyesight be the issue here???

Thanks!

[quickdtoo]

Optics aren't an option here for muzzleloader seasons, so I have to use an aperture sight even on my flintlock, it's good enough for benched 1½"-2" groups at 100yds with PRB hunting loads and my old eyes. 

Tim

[Stuart C.]

Thanks Tim.  That makes me feel better  .   Tim,
What is your front site like?
Where/how do you rest your rifle when shooting from the bench?
What load do you use?
I'd love to achieve those kinds of groups - in time. 
If you could, give me/us a primer on your bench technique, I know I would really appreciate it.
Thanks!!!

[Swampman]

If it's a .50 try using 60 grains of 3F.  I wear reading glasses when I shoot open sights.  It works for me.  A pistol scope mounted forward would be a good option if it's legal.

[Stuart C.]

Interesting.  Why would a long eye relief pistol scope be good, as opposed to a regular scope?   Thanks!

[quickdtoo]

I just use sand bags fore and aft in the typical fashion, I use blocks of wood under the bags to get a little height so I'm more upright and not leaning so much into the rifle. My hunting load for the flinter is 95gr 3f Goex and a .495" ticking patched ball lubed with pine scented Borebutter, front sight is a Williams Firesight.

Tim

[Swampman]

Interesting.  Why would a long eye relief pistol scope be good, as opposed to a regular scope?   Thanks!

I'm guessing this is a Hawken or a Renegade.  T/C made a pistol scope mount that replaced the rear sight.

[Semisane]

I'm guessing this is a Hawken or a Renegade.  T/C made a pistol scope mount that replaced the rear sight.

That's a new one on me Swampman .  Got any more info on that mount?  Part No.?  Source?

[streak]

Stuart C you mentioned in your post that you had confidence in your load and rifle when you started this shooting session. I would assume by that statement that on previous shooting sessions that you had used this same load in this rifle with better result`s. Could you please describe your load as to ball
size/weight,type of patching material,powder brand and charge size? Also length of your barrel,
I too have old eyes and problem`s with sight pictures. As one of the other member`s mentioned try a set of reading glasses,they have help to some degree in my case.

[Stuart C.]

Streak,
.490 Hornady .50 cal round ball
Pillow ticking patch prelubed in the microwave w/ beeswax, castor oil based lube
80 grains FFF
32" TC 1:66 twist barrel

Yes, i have had 'better' results with this in the past but i'll tell you, nothing like Tim's 2" groups at 100 yds. Part of that could be my abilities compared to Tim's of course, but what I'm wondering is if bare eyesight can actually give me the clarity that is required at 50 yards. 

The rear sight is a XS apeture sight mounted where the rear sight usually is; approx 10" in front of the eyes.  It has no insert, so it's a fairly big circle. It seemed to work for me in past shooting sessions.

Can bare eyesight give enough resolution/clarity to hold a front sight on the same 2" at 100 yards?  Maybe my eyes can't.

Thanks for all the comments.  I'm going to take another whach at it Sat.

[quickdtoo]

For me, the target I'm shooting at makes a big difference too, I use an 8" black circle with a 6" white center, I can hold center on the white and see my front sight position perfectly each time I shoot, trying to do the same on a black target doesn't work for me, plus you can see the hits in the white easy. 

Tim

[streak]

StuartC,
Looks like you have a good all around load for your.50 cal.
I don`t know your age but you mentioned in your original post that the rear sights were getting fuzzier!
My old eyes started developing cataracts four or five years ago and that was when I noticed the fuzzy sight`s on my firearm`s. So if during your shooting session on this coming Saturday things have not improved( hopefully they have) a trip for an eye exam might be in order if you have not had one recently. That would at least eliminate one factor.
Tim`s idea about the target with a white center and black circle is a good one! Works for me!
The ability to shoot 2" group`s with bare eyes and open sight`s at 50 yard`s can be done as Tim has shown.
Shoot straight and have a good session!
 

[Double 30]

If scoping isn't an option , try an aperture ( peep) rear sight. I need bifocals and cant shoot opens ( except my sks for some bizzare reason)worth a hoot anymore. But I can shoot 9 inch groups at 300 yards with an aperture rear sight. T/C makes one for their rifles, have one on my sparkchucker.

[smokepolehall]

i have older eyes and wear reading glasses. i actually need glasses & will get them this year. i shoot a New Englander with prb off the bench using sand bags. mine has peep sights with white front bead standard from TC. i am LH & i put RH behind LH while shooting off the sand bags. my sight picture is fuzzing but the bead is too. i can see it but to shoot with any type of accuracy i now do the 6 o'clock hold on targets.

[blhof]

I've got a Renegade with a 50 Green Mtn barrel with Fire sights and I shot great groups at the range all summer, but during deer season couldn't see the sights; deer came out at sunrise and sunset, sights were black blurrs against dark deer.  I got a red dot scope (legal in Ky) and will sight it and practice in late evening for next year.  I practice with shooting sticks after sighting with sandbags to simulate field conditions.  Mine is a fast twist for sabots and 2" groups with sand bags are average.

[DennyRoark]

I am curious about the bifocal effect, as I too have been forced into them.  Stepping down while looking down is always a problem and I'm wondering if the focal plane shift affects the aiming point.  I can't see the sights with the long range part or see the target with the close up part  .  To top that off, I lost my regular older pair at the gut pile and apparently the coyotes ate them.  What's a pair of old eyes to do???

Denny

[JBlk]

My eyes have gotten to the point that I can't get a good site picture with the front blade.I have switched to optics, and have eliminated my problem.You might also consider a good quality red dot scope with a fine dot.Quic-Kee makes a scope mount for black powder rifles that works very well and uses the standard weaver rings.

[dmurphy317]

In your original post you mentioned you placed the front rest behind your left hand instead of in front of it. If this is the first time you have shot like that I could see how that may be part of the problem. By placing the front rest that far from the muzzle you amplify any slight movement of the gun at the muzzle. Think of it like this, if the distance from the butt to the pivot point (front rest) is shorter than the distance from the muzzle to the pivot point, a slight move at your shoulder will translate to a larger move at the muzzle. I prefer to place the gun on the front rest under the barrel wedge or slightly further forward and just keep my left hand around the rear bag to squeeze adjust the stock up or down to get right on target.

Another thing I do is mount my peep sight as far back as comfortably possible. The further forward the peep the more likely you will have some misalignment due to the distances between the front sight and eye from the peep. With the peep just a couple of inches from the eye (kind of like a scope) your brain will atomatically center on the peep even if it is fuzzy and then you only have to worry bout putting the front sight on target. Using a setup like that on my Lyman GPH I have shot conical groups of less than .5 inches at 75 yards. I also wear bifocals so I don't have the best of eyesight. Good luck with working it out.

[El Hombre]

Were you using a new batch or change brand of percussion caps?
I have seen large changes in group size by changing brands of caps.
A new batch of your usual brand normaly won't change group size alot, but it can change some.
A change in cap size can make a difference also.
Same thing goes for a new lot of powder.

[chg]

Might try a different patch lube too.  Some that I've used do not group well at all.  Options that do work well for me are: spit patch, simply stick it in your mouth to moisten, formula 409 cleaner straight from the bottle, or Three Rivers cleaner, lube. 

[nw_hunter]

I hate to throw in the towel on anything, but today I couldn't keep three shots within six inches of each other at 50 yards!
I was resting the rifle a bit differently (just behind the left hand).  Everything else was the same.  Same load.  Shots going this way then that way.  Couldn't believe it.  Very frustrating.  The one thing that really started to get to me for the first time was the open sights; The site picture looks the same but for all I know with that fuzzy rear sight getting fuzzier, my vision just won't allow for more precision.  Frustrating.  Not a dam* group in the bunch.  I had total confidence in this load,gun but never shot it like this.  Rear sight is an appeture site (large hole, no insert) with standart dot front site.  Sorry had to vent.  ANY advice sor suggestions are appreciated.  I'll tell you I'm ready to get a scope.
S.

You didn't mention if you were using RB or conical! Did you have any noticeable wind? Wind can play hell with a rb group.

When I shoot from a bench, I place my hand between my rifle and the sandbags or what ever I'm resting on. This is the way I'll hold it while hunting, and it can make a diff. in the group. IMOP

If I'm shooting RB I try to use the same lube, and patch every time. If your using RB, did you check the patches to see if they are not burned or ragged. They should be in good enough shape to use again. If your burning them, try using a buffer between the powder and patch. Like a felt over powder wad, or some other material, such as wasp nest, or even green leaves.

This is what I like about shooting front stuffers! So many different things to try, to improve the performance.

Good excuse to make lots of smoke.

The longer my shooting sessions last, the more fuzzy my sights get, because of my 65 year old tired eyes, so I use a weak pair of reading glasses to see my sights. The target is a little out of focus, but the sights become crystal clear. (Works for me)

[coyotejoe]

Another thing I do is mount my peep sight as far back as comfortably possible. The further forward the peep the more likely you will have some misalignment due to the distances between the front sight and eye from the peep. With the peep just a couple of inches from the eye (kind of like a scope) your brain will atomatically center on the peep even if it is fuzzy and then you only have to worry bout putting the front sight on target. Using a setup like that on my Lyman GPH I have shot conical groups of less than .5 inches at 75 yards. I also wear bifocals so I don't have the best of eyesight. Good luck with working it out.

Amen brother! A peep sight needs to be close to the eye to be effective. A peep mounted 10" from the eye is not a "peep" at all, it is just an obstruction in the field of view. A small aperture close to the eye improves the depth of focus just as a small aperture in a camera lens increase the depth of field over a large aperture.
 Try a simple test. Hold your arm out with thumb upright like a front sight post and place that "post" against a distant target. Focus on the thumb and the background goes fuzzy. Focus on the target and the thumb goes fuzzy. Now punch a pin hole in a piece of paper, hold it close to the eye and repeat the test while looking through the pin hole and you'll find both thumb and target appear sharper than ever. Then punch a large hole in the paper and hold it a foot from the eye and you'll find it offers no benefit at all.
  I discovered the advantage of peep sights on my .22 as a teenager. I recently conducted an accuracy test with a Marlin m-39 using a 4x scope,  factory open sights, factory front bead with rear peep and a zero magnification red dot.  I fired a series of five groups of five shots each with the same rifle, same ammo, same shooter on the same day. With the scope I got a 3/4" average, with both peep and red dot I got a 1 1/4" average. With the open sights I'd get "most" of my shots in about an inch but always with a stray or two opening the group up to over two inches.
  I much prefer a scope whenever possible but Colorado does not allow a scoped muzzleloader for hunting so my ML hunting rifle wears a peep. Rendezvous shoots are open sight only and I for sure don't shoot them as well at 66 years as I did even 10 years ago.

[AtlLaw]

A peep mounted 10" from the eye is not a "peep" at all, it is just an obstruction in the field of view.

   +1   

[lrrice]

If the eye thing is new, it could be something as simple as holding your breath too long.  Something to do with the eyes needing highly oxygenated blood.  Otherwise, peeps and ghost rings can help a good deal.

[LOGEYE]

 HI StuartC: Sorry this a late comment to your experience at the range. I also shoot a T/C 1:66 32" patched rb barrel for X-sticks and light-bench gun matches at our BP club. Something that really surprized me was that if you use heavey or even firm cheek pressure on the stock trying to firm-up you hold you are actually BENDING the barrel! Varing pressure of your cheek on the stock causes radical shot placement as you experienced. A previous suggestion of putting your hand under the stock at the bag is good, but so is just laying the stock where you place your hand normally,without any cheek forced pressure, is going to improve your group. As sugested before, use the left hand/arm to curl back on the bench-top to support/elevate the butt against your cheek. From reading the other posts, I'm thinking of getting a PEEP!! too. Good Shooting and LOTS of X's  :  LOG EYE

[trent/OH]

Since nobody else has mentioned it, it could be as simple as the nipple being worn out. Try replacing a $2 item before buying a scope, mount, and having a witch doctor undo curses on the rifle.

[ldykeman]

Stuart, I have 60 year old eyes and also shoot a T/C (Renegade) with the T/C 1 in 66" barrel.  A couple of things worth mentioning...  My Renegade simply won't group well until it digests at least 100 gr. of Goex FFg behind a .490 RB with .015 or .020 patches, lubed with either Hoppe's No. 9 Plus, or BB.  It loves heaver charges, unlike my other Renegade with the 1 in 48" barrel.  As for sights, I use the T/C Hunter Peep mounted on the tang, and a T/C fiber optic front sight.  You mentioned that you do not use the screw in aperture, but use just the "ghost ring".  I found that just using the ghost ring does not give me enough of a distinct outline.  Using the aperture only works in very bright daylight....SO... I removed the aperture and drilled it out, using the largest drill that would fit the inside of the tube (the tube that screws in the sight, looking from the front), so I now have the largest hole possible while still using the screw in aperture.  This gives me a big enough hole for dim light conditions (and the fiber optic front sight really shines here, no pun intended).  And, using the drilled out screw in aperture gives me a very bold outline to center my eye in.  Short of going to a scope, this is the best setup for me.  As mentioned previously, a barrel mounted peep is much less effective than a tang mounted peep.
Hope you find something that works for you...
Larry

[sproulman]

i bought the RMC V-PEEP for my .50 cal hawkins.

it mounts in location of the same original rear sights about 15 inchs from my eye.

i did not like it there.

i drilled hole back just clear of hook breech or right next to frizzen which is 8 inchs from my eye

what a difference it made.

also i bought a .75 power large reading glasses,i can now see rear sight better and target at 25 yds is only a little fuzzy,not much.

i like the peep on barrel more than on tang.

i seem to pull up on it better than a tang peep.

RMC  v-peep does have cut in top to let light into the aperature.

i dont like sight on adjustments ,it does not have click setting, everything you do you move by loosening a screw.

its ok but if i wanted to improve that sight, it would have adjustment by screw, not by just moving it .