Author Topic: Do subsonic rounds richochet less? (Read 3534 times)

kernman · « **on:** January 01, 2009, 03:19:38 AM »

Happy New Year Everybody

I want to hunt rabbits near a sparsely populated area using subsonic rounds. Nearest house is about 500 yards away, with lots of trees in between. There are about 3 houses in an area of about one-square mile.

Does anybody know if subsonic rounds richochet less, using hollow points?

I like the idea that they are quiet, and close to a pellet gun; i don't have to worry about the round traveling for a mile

Thanks in advance

Kernman

tallyho · « **Reply #1 on:** January 01, 2009, 10:09:10 AM »

Kernman,
I can't answer with specifics or scientific results, but in my experience they ricochet more than I expected they would (I had a pre-concieved notion they would not ricochet so much). Obviously I could not tell where exactly they went when they took off, just that I heard that "wynnnnnggg" sound often enough when shooting them at certain angles. My suggestion would be to follow the standard procedure of being sure of a backstop behind the target. And shooting rabbits with them means you'll have to be fairly close to make sure of a clean kill, so keep that in mind as well.

Good Luck.
Kerry

Totenkopf · « **Reply #2 on:** January 01, 2009, 12:19:41 PM »

Never really had any ricochets when rabbit hunting. Even a 75 yard shot puts you at a downward angle from horizontal. I wouldn't have any hesitancy hunting a place like that as long as the ground isn't rocky. I only use subsonic for hunting. Performs very well. In the SS ammo hp vs. round tip really doesn't matter. Rem subsonics are readily available and soft alloy for game. Just speculation but seams to me a soft rem that penetrates 6" before it gives up in gelatin at 50 would be safer than a 60 gr aguila sniper subsonic that penetrates beyond 24" at 200 yards. Also I would think a high velocity round would have more stored energy after a ricochet to get to the houses. All speculation on my part. If it's safe fine, if not use a 410 with 2 1/2" shells, not as quiet, but better than 12 gauge. Or keep the shots close with cb rounds and head shots.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 01, 2009, 12:24:20 PM »

I think the CCI quick shock would be less likley to ricochet or at least not travel as far when it did. Being it is a prefragmented round it will break apart on impact and lower mass = less energy = less distance till it stopped. Now these are very destructive rounds and may do more meat damage when game is shot with them.

ilikemilitaria · « **Reply #4 on:** January 02, 2009, 07:38:48 AM »

Hello, My experience is more with squirrel hunting than rabbits, but the idea is the same. I switched to subsonic hp's quite a while back due to ricochet problems with wolf MT and other solid lead-heads. After switching to the subs, I honestly have not heard one since. Just my experience so far...

I love the Eley subs. I also use Remington's, but probably wont buy more since I have had too many FTF's with them. CCI and also the new WInchester subs are getting good reviews with hunters/shooters. Hope this helps,

dave

kernman · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2009, 12:23:20 PM »

Thank you all for your replies.

Another question: I want to buy a bolt action 22. Can I shoot these subsonics out of a regular 22 long rifle chamber? (Most rifles are chambered for only that, nowadays, it seems). Or do I need one that shoots, 22 shorts, longs, and long rifle?

As far as I know, the ground where I want to hunt is not rocky; at least there are no rocks sticking up. It is mostly Jeffrey Pine forest, with small clearings.

It's not flat, and there are a few rises that would act as a backstop, of sorts. I definitely would not shoot a centerfire there, though.

Billy, the CCI quick shot would not work because I want to save as much meat as possible.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2009, 01:15:12 PM »

Most 22s listing LR only is because they will not feed shorter bullets. in most all actions shorts and longs are perfectly safe to shoot. They can just be somewhat difficult to load quickly.

I had a 10-22 that shot shorts wonderfully... just will not feed them from the mag. Same deal with the CB LONG;s wonderfully accurate... just not enough powder to work the action.. but they did manually feed just fine.

As for the ricocheting.. I would say subs are no more or less prone to ricochets as velocity is not the determining factor....

The Quick shocks are about the best chance of expansion's or in there case disintegration into three pieces.

Fineally, worried about meat loss.. shoot for the head!!

CW

tallyho · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2009, 01:28:56 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on January 03, 2009, 01:15:12 PM

Fineally, worried about meat loss.. shoot for the head!!

CW

[img width= height= alt=" border="0]http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/Themes/babylon/images/post/thumbup.gif[/img] [img width= height= alt=" border="0]http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/Themes/babylon/images/post/thumbup.gif[/img]

Yup! Also puts them down quickly so ya don't have to dig 'em out of a hole or from under a pile of brush. I learned at a young age, if I don't see a head shot on a bunny, I don't shoot until I can get one. They'll often sit still if you slowly move a bit parallel (not directly toward them) and change your angle for a better shot. And sometimes if you stay still they'll move a bit just to see if you move to. Either way you stand a good chance to get that head shot. Good luck, and good eatin'

Cheers
Kerry

docmagnum357 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 03, 2009, 03:49:30 PM »

It depends. If velocity is very high, like a cci stinger, yher is a better chance of the bullet breking up on impact, even at a shallow angle. Slower bullets are more likely to richochet.

Totenkopf · « **Reply #9 on:** January 03, 2009, 06:26:33 PM »

The subsonics are 22 lr, will feed fine in a bolt also they cycle fine in most autos. When you get your rifle just buy a box of each and see which is the most accurate. Then buy up some bricks. It seems every few years another brand goes out of production. My favorite is pmc moderators. Haven't found them in 3 years, guessing they are discontinued.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** January 03, 2009, 07:40:22 PM »

PMC went out of business a couple years ago, Jamison Intl bought all their equipment, some Korean company is making ammo under the PMC name now, they make no rimfire ammo, mostly pistol ammo with a few centerfire rifle chamberings.

Tim

http://www.pmcammo.com/

cwlongshot · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2009, 01:45:46 AM »

Quote from: Totenkopf on January 03, 2009, 06:26:33 PM

The subsonics are 22 Lr, will feed fine in a bolt also they cycle fine in most autos. When you get your rifle just buy a box of each and see which is the most accurate. Then buy up some bricks. It seems every few years another brand goes out of production. My favorite is pmc moderators. Haven't found them in 3 years, guessing they are discontinued.

Yup, they are gone.. but Aquila makes one that's almost identical... gotta talk to my pop.. He shoots the Moderators and recently found that these Aquila's are very close and shoot well.

CW

kernman · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2009, 02:38:54 AM »

Good points, all. Thanks!

Another question:

Is it true subsonics are about as powerful as a 22 cal. pellet rifle? Say, a Sheridan, pumped to the maximum? (I don't own a pellet gun. For now I want to buy a 22 rifle, which IMHO is more versatile. Money is tight).

Regarding ricochet, apparently there is less worry when you use hollow-points, due to breakup.

But according to Docmagnum357, slower bullets are more likely to ricochet? I am suprised to hear that. I would have that it would be the other way around. But apparently you are saying that more velocity creates more breakup. If seems contradictory, but it makes sense.

No offense intended, DocMagnum.

So, according to your replies, my best bet is to put a scope on my 22, load it with subsonic hollow points, and seek head shots.

Or did I miss something?

billy_56081 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2009, 02:46:18 AM »

NO subsonics are more powerful that most pellet guns. With subsonic 22 you are pushing a 38 to 40 grain projectile at 1000 fps. I dought your pellets get up to 20 grains even. As I said before CCI Quick shocks will be the least likely to ricochet. Another option if using a manually operated rifle is CB longs, now they are on par with a pellet gun, quiet, and plenty powerful for rabbits.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2009, 02:46:43 AM »

Quote from: kernman on January 04, 2009, 02:38:54 AM

Good points, all. Thanks!

Another question:

Is it true subsonics are about as powerful as a 22 cal. pellet rifle? Say, a Sheridan, pumped to the maximum? (I don't own a pellet gun. For now I want to buy a 22 rifle, which IMHO is more versatile. Money is tight).

Regarding ricochet, apparently there is less worry when you use hollow-points, due to breakup.

So, according to your replies, my best bet is to put a scope on my 22, load it with subsonic hollow points, and seek head shots.

Or did I miss something?

I agree with Billy, No not even close.
I have a Sheriden and I like it very much, but a 20cal 12-15gr projectile will never equal a 40gr 22cal one traveling at about 1100fps.

Yes, as lighter pieces shed velocity faster. they are less of a worry with ricochets.

Nope you read us loud and clear!! Now go Mount that scope, site it in and shoot some bunnies... I can smell that rabbit pies already!!!

CW

kernman · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2009, 03:58:20 AM »

And I'll be inviting you all over for rabbit stew, since you are such good people!

Billy, can you talk a bit about those "CB longs" you mentioned? Are they actually longer? Do they use more powder, or faster burning powder, or what?

I am a bit confused: "long rifle" is what I want to avoid. But I know you don't mean that.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #16 on:** January 04, 2009, 04:13:18 AM »

I'll slip in and answer for Billy..

The CB long is a new twist on an old bullet.. The CB came out after the original BB round... "B B" Was simply a lead ball pushed into a muzzle loader cap. That's how the rimfire was born. In an effort to make a better bullet a Conical Bullet or CB was designed.

That was then... this is now. CCI, Remington and Aquila make some very reduced velocity rounds. Some have very small amounts of powder, others have none only the primer. They are lighter bullets at redused velocities for gallery target and specialized hunting uses.

The LONG version from CCI is a std long/long rifle case with a 29gr bullet and a small amount of powder. Velocity is about 800 from a rifle barrel. the SHORT version has identical ballistics only its in a short sized case.

CW

MSP Ret · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2009, 07:40:17 AM »

cw is 100% correct. I have and shoot Aquila Colibris and Aquila Super Colibris. I like and prefer the Super Colibris for close range psets in the yard. I have eliminated MANY gray squirrels, chipmunks, red squirrels (in Maine), and even crows in my backyard with Super Colibris. If I need more power I switch to CB longs and the next step up is standard velocity .22 short hp. They are much more powerful by far than the others. Many still think that CB shorts and CB longs are different power levels, but, as cw said, and few seem to know, is that they are loaded to the same power level. The CB longs are a bit easeir to handle and load since they are longer. If by some chance you have a gun, an old gallery gun perhaps, that is chambered only for .22 shorts then the .22 cb shorts are what you want, otherwise I suggest the cb longs. Good shooting and good hunting. These reduced loads for .22's are great but use caution, they too can be deadly....<><....

billy_56081 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2009, 03:06:49 PM »

Dang CW thanks for explaining that I always thought CB was for Cat Bullet.

CB's are great low noise short range 22 shells. And I guarantee they have plenty of punch for bunnys.

kernman · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2009, 04:04:33 PM »

So much information! Thank you all for your thoughtful replies.

Makes me wonder if a chart exists somewhere that lists subsonic rounds, their weight, their velocities, and their foot pounds delivered to target? I doubt it, but it would be convenient.

what about one of my own? From least to most powerful, based on your information:

22 pellet rifle, pumped 8-10 times
Aguila Colibris,
Aguila Super Colibris
CB longs
22 shorts
22 long rifle

Would you add, omit, change the order? I'm just curious, not trying to get too technical.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2009, 04:34:13 PM »

Quote from: MSP Ret on January 04, 2009, 07:40:17 AM

cw is 100% correct. I have and shoot Aquila Colibris and Aquila Super Colibris. I like and prefer the Super Colibris for close range psets in the yard. I have eliminated MANY gray squirrels, chipmunks, red squirrels (in Maine), and even crows in my backyard with Super Colibris. If I need more power I switch to CB longs and the next step up is standard velocity .22 short hp. They are much more powerful by far than the others. Many still think that CB shorts and CB longs are different power levels, but, as cw said, and few seem to know, is that they are loaded to the same power level. The CB longs are a bit easeir to handle and load since they are longer. If by some chance you have a gun, an old gallery gun perhaps, that is chambered only for .22 shorts then the .22 cb shorts are what you want, otherwise I suggest the cb longs. Good shooting and good hunting. These reduced loads for .22's are great but use caution, they too can be deadly....<><....

Question for you: Have you shot the Super Colibris from a rifle? I've got a Henry on the way to my dealer and was looking over loads for it and it seems that the Super Colibris are recommended for pistols only, but I hear of people shooting them out of rifles with success. I'd like to get the quietest ones I can for practice in the back yard.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #21 on:** January 05, 2009, 10:21:32 AM »

Kev,
Some longer barrel rifles have aqctually had the no powder shells get stuck in the barrel!

That's the reason for the pistol recommendation.

I have a long barreled Springfield and a really long barreled CZ that this happens every couple shots. Its a shame too as they are all but silent....

CW

MSP Ret · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2009, 01:58:12 PM »

I will research the bullet weight and velocities of the Colibris and Super Colibris and get back to you on that. I shoot them out of a Marlin Model 60 with a scope either by loading singly by hand, a tedious proposition, or I found out if I load them in the tubular magazine I can manually cycle the action and it works well. I shoot them in H&R/NEF Sportsters and they do not stick in the barrel. I also have shot them in an old Savage Anshutz (shoots them GREAT!!!) and a Ruger 10/22. Out of over 500 rounds + shot I have only had 3 (IIRC) bullets stick in the barrel. I think it is more a combination of the regular Colibri (not the Super Colibi) and a rough or cold dirty bore. I have no hesitation of shooting them out of a rifle. Just use common sense and usual careful policies of shooting....<><....

P.S. - I am not sure if I saw it here or on another forum but during the discussion of Super Colibris in a rifle a member stated that he had fired them through his Henry lever rifle and they functioned and fired perfectly through his gun...hope this helps

cwlongshot · « **Reply #23 on:** January 05, 2009, 02:09:16 PM »

In all fairness, and just so you'all know. The old Springfield 84C has a 25" barrel and the CZ 452 has a 28" barrel.
So its juat a TAD longer the the optimal 16"-18" 22RF's are designed for...

CW.

tallyho · « **Reply #24 on:** January 05, 2009, 02:39:45 PM »

Like MSP Ret, I have often shot them (Colibris) out of my Sportster(s) - and I agree, when bore is a bit gunked is there a problem.

The first I noticed such a thing, one of my kids had been plinking and was shooting at Pepsi cans. He had been hitting everything he shot at up until that point. At the shot, the can did not jump, nor did I notice a spurt of dust from a miss. Since they are so quiet, and had zero recoil, he was confused and cocked the hammer and fired it again (we did have a mis-fire from time to time). Nothing the second time, so since I suspected something like this, I got him to crack the rifle open. There it was, about 1/3 of the way from the chamber. It didn't take much to get it out with a cleaning rod, but it gave us something to keep an eye on.

I'm goin' with the gunky bore idea on this one since we'd already shot about two and a half boxes (125-ish rounds) through the rifle with out a problem (other than the occasional mis-fire mentioned). Gotta keep that in mind if you choose to use the regular Colibris. Doesn't seem to be the case with the Supers.

Cheers
Kerry

Totenkopf · « **Reply #25 on:** January 05, 2009, 02:47:18 PM »

I have never tried the cb only colibri. They work out of a 14" contender pistol and 16" 10-22 with manual cycling. I never tried them in any other because of the concern of getting stuck. I only clean bores when accuracy falls, which is a very long time in between cleanings. I had heard that over 18" will give you mixed results. I switched to 22 cal pellet rifles due to the colibri not having enough power past 25 or 30 yards.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #26 on:** January 05, 2009, 03:01:43 PM »

here is some info I turned up on the net:

Colibri - 20 grain bullet @ 375 fps 6 ft lbs energy

Super Colibri - 20 grain bullet @ 575 fPS 11 ft lbs energy

CCI CB long - 29 grain bullet @ 727 fps ? ft lb energy

Aquila 22 - 29 grain bullet @ 780 fps ? ft lb energy
"Short Target"

(this Aquila 22 "Short Target" is a new one on me, I may have to try it..)

cwlongshot · « **Reply #27 on:** January 05, 2009, 03:26:03 PM »

RWS 25 is a 22 short target load @ 525fps with a 29gr bullet. I shot it for a while in my Walther OSP pistol. But at $10-12 for 50 rounds its a bit expensive!!! I shoot CCI Short target now @ $10 for 100 rounds and 850 FPS. Its more flash and recoil, but its a 22short, so its kinda a moot point to mention recoil and 22short in the same sentence...

CW

kevthebassman · « **Reply #28 on:** January 05, 2009, 03:53:02 PM »

Well thanks for the advice. I'm gonna get myself a box of 'em and be extra careful about making sure they clear the bore. Ought to be just the ticket for pesky tin cans lurking in the back yard!

cwlongshot · « **Reply #29 on:** January 05, 2009, 04:02:51 PM »

Quote from: kevthebassman on January 05, 2009, 03:53:02 PM

Well thanks for the advice. I'm gonna get myself a box of 'em and be extra careful about making sure they clear the bore. Ought to be just the ticket for pesky tin cans lurking in the back yard!

Your gonna like 'em!!!

Like tallyho said, even if they do not exit they are very easy to push out with a cleaning rod.

ENJOY!!

CW