Author Topic: PPK/james bond style pistol (Read 1821 times)

superdown · « **on:** January 01, 2009, 06:40:33 AM »

I have been looking at the CZ83 ,sigp232 and the Walther ppks out of those three i like the Sig best as far as looks go and the Walther second the CZ looks a little to big i know cz's are a good product but looks sorta cheap compared to the others. Any other models i should look at ?

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #1 on:** January 01, 2009, 07:11:52 AM »

Kahr comes to mind. Different look, but similar mission. They have even come out with a .380 model, if I understand correctly it is not a blowback design. Nothing as sexy as a p232 though, I don't care how big and heavy they are.

Brett · « **Reply #2 on:** January 01, 2009, 02:14:59 PM »

Here is a good chart comparing a bunch of pocket pistols. Enjoy.

http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf

williamlayton · « **Reply #3 on:** January 02, 2009, 12:14:38 AM »

Didn't even see a Walther in the bunch. HUMMMM.
The Kahr is a fav amongst many in the police business.
I will still stick with the Walther I have had by my side for 40 years or so.
Blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** January 02, 2009, 12:48:22 AM »

OK, the CZ and the Sig will shoot forever and never even burp. The Sig is sexier and definately built to handle anything you can load through a 380. It is my choice of the two. The PPKs however would be my baby, after about two thousand rounds, just to make sure it is broken in.

Should you decide on the PPKs, get 3 or 4 extra magazines with the finger rest on them (makes for a better feel) and half a ton of ammo and go to town (actually, the range). If you decide on the Sig, do the same theing - a few extra mags and lots of ammo. JMTCW. Mikey.

superdown · « **Reply #5 on:** January 02, 2009, 06:58:05 AM »

I really want the ppk style but i am a little worried about the power of the 380 . that has got me thinking of getting a small 9mm but i will always long for that ppk style.

williamlayton · « **Reply #6 on:** January 02, 2009, 07:40:49 AM »

Mikey is right.
It took well over 500 rounds for the PPK to learn too digest HP's.
I have to reccommend the PPK but only because I like mine and have not ventured out too another.
The other small pistols I own are a .38 snubby and it resides comfortly and warmly under the mattress and a Sig 239 which seems too follow me around like a puppy.
Blessings

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #7 on:** January 02, 2009, 07:58:37 AM »

Super,
Not sure. I would love to see what a short compact 9mm really does ballisticly. The 9mm was designed for 5" barrels and with the subcompacts comming in at 3 to 3.5 inch barrels are you getting much more than 380 out of the little guns? Don't know.
In shooting revolvers I do notice the same ammo has greatly different effects on steel swingers out of a 2", 4" and 6" revolver.
I do not see why auto ammo would not be the same.
I have a Sig P230 and a Walther PP.
I bought the P230 for a personal carry gun back in the early 90's when my choices for small pocket gun were either 380 or 38Spl J frame.
The PP is in 32 and is a different story.
But lets get back to the 38's the 2" Det Special I have with 130 grain FMJ rounds will not move or drop some of the swingers on a steel shoot the club holds but the 380 I have will. Everyone says 38 Spl is OK for defence but the 380 is marginal.
With modern Hollow point ammo in the 380 I do not feel under gunned. With the Det Special .....
I do have small 9mm's like a Sig 229 and P6 (225) but it is huge in light clothes and sticks way out.
I do get good hits on the steel with them and can not tell the difference between them and my Sig P226 on steel targets.
If anyone out there has done ballistic tests with short barreled autos please speak up as to how much is lost per inch of barrel.

superdown · « **Reply #8 on:** January 02, 2009, 10:24:27 AM »

Quote

The PP is in 32 and is a different story

It is also available in 380.

Quote

But lets get back to the 38's the 2" Det Special I have with 130 grain FMJ rounds will not move or drop some of the swingers on a steel shoot the club holds but the 380 I have will.

That makes me feel a little better.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #9 on:** January 02, 2009, 10:46:00 AM »

No, me owning one in 32 is a differnent story.
I know they are available in 380. But I had a Colt 1903 pocket pistol I sold a friend and really liked that gun. saw saw the PP and bought it. It works and works well but only with FMJ ammo. The Colt really liked the silver tips and I felt better having them in the gun.
I forgot that the old style PP, PPK/s and PPK all bit your hand when you shoot them. Especally if your carring an extra 20 or more pounds.
My P230 doen not seem to bite me as much. Hollow point ammo works well out of mine.
When I got mine I did not shoot it for the first 200 rounds.
I took it to the range at Bob's in Norfolk and let everyone else shoot the new gun. After the 200 rounds of FMJ were gone I cleaned the gun and headed back to the range with three boxes of JHP ammo I wanted to carry. Win, Remington and Federal.
Loaded both mags with each type and proceeded to shoot one mag drop it and shoot the second to make sure that each mag functioned with the hollow points as well. While doing this I got familiar with the heel mag release and worked on speed drill to change mags while firing (tactical reload) and running the gun dry.
I got it as I was biking from the college in Norfolk to Va Beach where I worked in a boating store and wanted to carry a gun through the bad neighborhoods inbetween.

superdown · « **Reply #10 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:36:22 AM »

I was looking at the ppk and the ppk/s and i couldn't tell the difference. So is there a difference? Is it just the magazines. cause there is only a slight weight and height difference. and one round capacity

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #11 on:** January 02, 2009, 12:54:07 PM »

The PP is the first one and the PPK is a chopped and bobbed version of the PP.
the 1968 firearms act made the PPK illegal to import for some stupid reason.
so they took the slide and barrel of the PPK and stuck them on the frame of the PP to get the PPK/S.
The Sig P230 / 232 is the same size as the Walther PP. and mine fits in holsters made for either.

Brett · « **Reply #12 on:** January 02, 2009, 03:31:04 PM »

If you like the style of the PPKs you may like the Makarov. The 9X18 Makarov cartridge falls between the .380acp and .38spl in power.

http://www.bobtuley.com/makarov/

bluecow · « **Reply #13 on:** January 03, 2009, 04:48:46 AM »

wondered how long it would take someone to start ringing the makarov bell. ive had both ppk and the mak. theres something ( james bond? yes!) special about the ppk. Having said that i only own the makarov now and dont miss the ppk one little bit. forget the move image and take a good look at the makarov. an extra 20 pounds? is that all I wish that was all.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #14 on:** January 03, 2009, 05:26:14 PM »

The Mak is a great gun. When I was in college we would get them, degrease the gun and fill it with Flitz polish and cycle the gun while watching TV with an old towel in my lap. Till the Flitz turned from blue to black. Would then clean the gun again and do it over again as well as filling the trigger and sear with the polish and working them till smooth. After a weeks worth of TV we would take it to the range or the farm and shoot the crap out of it and back to polish it for another week, clean it shoot it and it would run and really run smooth. basically a hand laped gun.
Those maks were smooth as anything comming out of Walther or Sig. The only down side was the ammo. When we were playing with the Maks there was only FMJ ammo available(early 90's). Is there self defense stuff available now?
We also did this with the Hi Power clones and other eastern European guns that were out and cheap then.
As I said earlier I think the 380 will out preform the 38 special oout of either a J frame or a Det Special size gun. At least mine does.
There was also an other 9X18 out there that was super charged and called the european police round that was chambered in the Sig 230 in Europe. It was a hot loaded brass cased 9X18 Mak with good and heavy bullets. But it was a hand full in the little blow back gun and was really cracky. Heck 357 mag out of a J frame kicked less.

Brett · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2009, 02:04:36 PM »

I can remember when you could pick up good E. German Mak's for a Ben Franklin and get change back. Wish I could find one today for under two bills.

superdown · « **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2009, 07:05:48 AM »

The guy at my local shop has all but got me convinced to buy a new S&W airlight snubby in 357 he pointed out some of the advantages to the revolver won't jam,can fire in a pocket, more ammo choices.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #17 on:** January 07, 2009, 06:07:49 AM »

I used to make rent just after college teaching the new police officers how to shoot the J frames in 357. What a handful. Good reliable and dependable but I have learned my lesson about carring a revolver in a pocket and will not do that again. Have pair of scars on my left thigh. One in and one out from a Win Silver tip out of my Det Spl. Everything goes in a Holster! Period! It sounds like a good Idea to carry it in a Jacket pocket but trust me, wear the jacket over your holster, especally if you wear pull overs like I do. If you do one thing wrong you may not get hurt if you do two you have a 60/40 of getting hurt, if you do three things wrong, you have a 90/10 of getting hurt. I did three things wrong. 1 cocked the revolver in my pocket, two tried to uncock same revolver when threat went away, and three started walking when I did it. Thumb slipped, Left leg was moving forward and round went off. Learned alot about myself that day.
Also with the poor proformance of the silver tip it had me doing some tests on steel swingers with my pocket guns as to what did what. Again my P230 moves steel plates that the 38 snub nose will not.
If you buy the 357 let me know and I will give you the lesson for free.

Ak.Hiker · « **Reply #18 on:** January 08, 2009, 06:54:23 PM »

Interesting information on the 380 in the Walther. Skeeter Skelton prefered the 380 Walther as a back up over a snub nosed 38 Special. He said the 380 penetrated better in his testing. He was using 95 grain FMJ loads. I just read one of his stories from 1982 the other night.

williamlayton · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2009, 08:54:26 PM »

The Mak may be OK, it is just a variation.
I like the PPK I have because it is flat, doesn't snag, rides in a front pocket comfortably, a business card or credit card on top stops the printing, it shoots the lint out and keeps on ticking, feels/fits well in the hand.
Whallop? Well nobody gets up after Bond, James Bond shoots em

.
It fits the purpose of design very well.
Why try another?
Blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #20 on:** January 09, 2009, 01:57:59 AM »

mcwoodduck: I don't know how a 380 garnered more downrange energy than a properly loaded 38 Spl - and I am very glad your 'experience' did not leave you more permanently scarred - but I carry a standard pressure load for my 38 snubbie that makes those plates ring out loud when it smacks them whereas the 380 just makes it 'ding'.

I've been helping my buddy look for a pocket piece and this has not been a easy task. He's not the james bond type and doesn't think like one. He just wants something for his pants pocket that packs enough of a wallop at 'in your face' range to 'discourage' further aggression. Last night we looked at everything from snub nosed 22 magnums to Kel-Tec 380s, and of course the 'behind the counter' guys just added to the confusion. The Kel-Tec or the LCP would be just the ticket but brother, that little piece is something you really have to practice with - long, long trigger pull with a 'point and shoot' only application. I will have to get my old Beretta 70s out of wraps to let him fire some 380 and also some 38 from a snubbie to see how he feels about either caliber in a short, small package.

Superdown - I believe a 357 snubbie would be a total waste of $. I really don't care who sez whut about 357s in snubbies 'cuz if you can do just as well if not better (all things considered) with a 38 spl and standard pressure loads. My wrist can handle a box of 357s from my N-frame or even a M19, but put those loads in a snubbie and I won't be the one holding onto it.

We even looked at a Tomcat but $40 for a box of 'majic boolets' (silvertip hps) takes it right out of the range of 'frequent practice' which is necessary for one of those pocket pistols.

We will lokk more this weekend.................wish me luck...

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2009, 05:23:27 AM »

Mikey,
When ever I would win at the clubs tactical shoot, the next month I would shoot a small pocket pistol. For two reasons. the first is to give others a chance in the winners circle and to get better with my Det Special or the Sig P230. We have some steel plates that swing or fall and pull a string to swing out cardboard or other targets. Using factory ammo, we are allowed to use FMJ bullets, I was using the 130 grain FMJ 38 specials in the 100 pack white box, and out of the 380 I was using 90 grain FMJ out of the same 100 round white box.
The 2' detective special would make a great smack noise on the steel but it would not swing or fall. The same ammo a month or two earlier worked fine out of my 4" and 6" Smith guns. The 380 ammo would make less of a noise when it hit the steel but it would knock them over. My thinking is that the 38 ammo is generally loaded for a 4" barrel and below that you are burning powder out side of the Barrel. I have not brought out a chronograph to see how much slower the ammo is with the 2" gun over the 4" or stick a force gauge between two sheet of steel to see if the 380 actually hits harder. I am concerned with shooting 9mm out of the sub compacts and wonder if the standard 9X19 out of a sub compact is hitting harder than a 380 that is loaded with bullets designed for those speeds and barrel lengths.
either way you go you would be better off than without one. Heck I have a Walther TPH that is 3/4 the size of a PPK in 22LR that I used to carry with me when I would walk the dogs. We had Coyote and other dogs that would attack mine and the neighbors Labs. The TPH is the loudest little gun I have ever shot and with the 60 grain Aguilla rounds it will drop a Coyote and the loud noise made it so I did not have to shoot the Irish Wolf hound on the corner that had the neighbors meduim sized dog in it's mouth and was starting to shake it. Bang! into the dirt and dog fight over. The Coyotes and the Meth lab in the orange grove is why I was carrying the 38 the day I had a AD.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #22 on:** January 09, 2009, 05:46:59 AM »

Oh yea tell your friend that if you ask 5 guys what gun to carry. You will get 8 to 15 answers. All will be correct. There is not RIGHT answer. The best thing to do is find out what fits his hand and what will be the most consealable and still easy to get to and more importantly to get out. When I was looking for a carry gun I figured out I was going to be on a bike and that I was going to have a fanny pack. I went to the gun shop took the fanny pack off of the wall put it on and told the counter guy I was looking for a gun to go in it. I tried out a PPK/S ( really wanted the the PPK/S) the Sig P230 and S&W M60, M38 the body guard, and a M640? ( the one with out the hammer exposed). Everytime I reached into the holster to pull out the PPK/S the hammer hit me in the Web of my hand and hand to fumble with it to get it out, same with the S&W revolvers. Everytime I reached into the Fanny pack holster the Sig Jumped right into my hand and was ready to go. I bought the Sig because it fit me, not for any other resaon. Then I set out to break in the gun and then learn how to shoot it before I started to carry it.

superdown · « **Reply #23 on:** January 09, 2009, 06:03:06 AM »

good info guys, i guess when you said that the 380 had knoked the plates over and the 38 spl did not i was suprised and thought how can that be with a weaker round (on paper) could do that ?

Mikey · « **Reply #24 on:** January 10, 2009, 01:20:42 AM »

mcwoodduck - good question on the 9mm from compact pistols vs the 380 from what it was designed to be shot from. I guess the only way to tell is to chrono both loads.

You're right about 5 guys having 15 different answers. My buddy will just have to answer the question his own self. The best I can do is lay it allout in front of him and let him decide.

You are also correct about a load shooting differently from 2,4 and 6" bbls; found that out after ducking some ricochets from 158 gn 38 spls that came back at us after hitting the top of a 55 gallon drum set at a angle. Shot from a snubbie they would dimple the top or even break the metal but not penetrate - those are the ones that would come 'flup', 'flup', 'flupping' back at us. From a 4" M10 the same loads penetrated and from a 6" they penetrated more easily so it seemed...longer barrels help but that's why I went to heavier boolets.....

Brett · « **Reply #25 on:** January 10, 2009, 03:34:40 AM »

Theoretically even if all else was equal the pistol would produce more velocity than a revolver due to the cylinder to barrel gap of the revolver. It would be interesting to see a comparison between one of those revolvers that uses half moon clips and is chambered for an ACP round and a semi-auto pistol chambered for the same round with equal length barrels to see how much energy is squandered in the barrel gap of the revolver.

The best advise is keep shooting until the threat is neutralized whichever gun/cartridge you choose.

williamlayton · « **Reply #26 on:** January 10, 2009, 03:37:40 AM »

At ranges less than 7/10 yards the .380 should do as well as a .38 snubbie.
As well, is the most ambiguous phrase in the whole discussion.
The term "adequate", in most cases, may be a better term.
I won't argue for either/any as a best case choice for other than adequate.
Blessings

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #27 on:** January 12, 2009, 05:44:35 AM »

Brett,
I know that the Desert Eagle auto in 6" has a slower velocity than does my 6" S&W M29 with 44 mag loads.
Not sure if it is the gas needed to cycle that huge slide or because the 6" barrel on an auto has the case length less rifeling than does the revolver but the up to .015 gap in a revolver does not allow that much gas out.

Coonhound · « **Reply #28 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:00:35 PM »

I have a Bersa Thunder .380 that shoots like a dream. It looks a lot like the PPK but is a whole lot cheaper at about $225, depending on finish. Everyone who owns one has nothing but great things to say about the Bersa. You can also get it in 9mm. Take a look.

Brett · « **Reply #29 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:59:12 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on January 12, 2009, 05:44:35 AM

Brett,
I know that the Desert Eagle auto in 6" has a slower velocity than does my 6" S&W M29 with 44 mag loads.
Not sure if it is the gas needed to cycle that huge slide or because the 6" barrel on an auto has the case length less rifeling than does the revolver but the up to .015 gap in a revolver does not allow that much gas out.

Huh, go figger. Guess I lernt something new today.