Author Topic: IF Civil War were to happen again... (Read 1724 times)

Foxxtrot · « **on:** January 02, 2009, 11:37:55 AM »

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123051100709638419.html

I don't believe the map this Russian has put together. I don't think we would have a map at all really. I am not sure what it would take to start the next Civil War. Assassination of political figures, drought, more socialization and increased unrest between the social classes, another terrorist attack and maybe a combination of four or five of such events would put Americans against one another. I am not sure how race would factor in, but it would. Do you think blacks and whites would collectively join together. Would other non majority race groups even have a chance of survival? I would think China and Russia would be willing to work together to knock us out for good with a combined nuclear strike. Would Federal troops split to fight one another if it came down to North vs South and what of the Western states?

Are there any books lately on the subject?

Nimrod71 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 02, 2009, 02:33:26 PM »

Good question Foxy. The next civil war will be between the have and have nots. As more people become educated and more become uneducated there will be a great divide in our society. The educated will advice in wealth and property, the uneducated will at best serve this upper class. Its a fact that uneducated people can not govern themselves. This leaves only the educated to rule the uneducated. This Axum goes back thousands of years. As in slavery dates here the only thing whites could not do to blacks was to educate them. The government knew way back then that education was the key to freedom and prosparity. In our state over 40% of students starting high school will not finish. That is a lot of uneducated people. The old saying if you don't learn from history you will repeat it. Yes I expect a major civil uprising, when I don't know, but it is coming. Our country was based on the belief in God, work and freedom from government intervention in our personal lives. Now 2009, God is being taken out of everything by the government, more and more people are welfare even those able to work, the government is chipping away our rights little my little. We no longer own anything, even our homes, if you don't believe it miss paying the taxes and see what happens. If things don't change it is coming, or maybe it is Jesus.

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #2 on:** January 02, 2009, 10:56:29 PM »

Your question, while having merit, coming from the ruskies is quite a reach IMHO. They have been saying we were going to implode ever since the 50's yet it was those same folks who blinked first on Oct. 13th out there in the Atlantic. I know cause I was there.

There are several ways it might happen but I would think that the loss of a city (terrorist attack) and the then use of "Homeland Security" and with it the loss of our civil liberties would be the most likely way to have a "Civil War".

As for a secession of one or more states, there are several groups advicating this move already, Alaska and Hawaii come to mind. As well as a few of the western states. The question then becomes just how do we handle them?

Gary G · « **Reply #3 on:** January 03, 2009, 02:06:02 PM »

IMO, if we do make a change in status quo, it will result by the destruction of our currency following a long bout with hyperinflation. Restlessness will occur in the major cities, martial law will be initiated, government will fail, because without our money they have no power. Many will cry for socialism by some other name) and many will cry for libertarianism, constitutionalism. At present we are a mixed economy (free-market + socialism, fascism). Other countries will stay out as they will have their own economic problems to deal with. What we end with is up for debate. We may see a big change at the end of Obama's administration if the people become educated to what is happening and our loss of rights.

Dee · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2009, 02:18:50 PM »

Ga.Windbreak, as we speak there is a group the has started a movement here in Texas to secede. I think given the political climate at the present in the COUNTRY, that it is a CAPITOL IDEA.

Nimrod71 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2009, 03:20:20 PM »

Before the last War Between the States, or I should say between the Union and Confederacy, nothing in the constitution stated that a state could not succeed from the Union. After the war, the Constitution was amended and no state can leave the Union. It is true it is all about money, and our money is not worth much now and getting to be worth less each day. When I was young you could purchase a new 1600 sq. ft. home for $15,000. A new Chev. p.u. sold for $2,800. You could buy an A-5 Browning for $125. A coke cost 6 cents. A box of 12 ga 2 3/4 High Brass shells cost $1.59. A visit to the doctor cost $5. Gas cost 25 cent a gallon. Milk was 50 cent a gallon. Getting in the movie cost 50 cent with popcorn a nickle and coke a nickle. I am only 57, how much lower can a dollar go?

SouthernByGrace · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2009, 06:02:20 PM »

Hate to disagree Nim, but the Constitution never has been amended to prevent any state from seceding, even after the War. Each individual Southern State was forced to include such language in their respective State Constitutions, but the US Constitution has Never been amended to reflect this, because it is a right already guaranteed to the States.

Respectfully,
SBG

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2009, 07:41:53 PM »

Quote from: Dee on January 03, 2009, 02:18:50 PM

Ga.Windbreak, as we speak there is a group the has started a movement here in Texas to secede. I think given the political climate at the present in the COUNTRY, that it is a CAPITOL IDEA.

I thought Texas might be one of those states but I wasn't sure, thanks Dee.

And Nimrod71 SBG has you there the Constitution has never been amended to stop that. Why? You don't wave a Red blanket in a Bulls face unless you want to get knocked on your kester. If they tried to amend it and lost; just what would that say about the Southern states leaving in the first place. The Federal gov. is in a no win position on secession. Thats why no one was EVER brought to trial as a Traitor and why they wanted to hang Lincoln's death on Davis; also why the Colonel from Andersonville was hanged. He was offered a chance to walk (several times including the very day he was hanged) if he would only say that Davis was a party to Lincoln's death but he wouldn't tell that lie so they hung him.

BBF · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2009, 05:54:38 AM »

Nimrod, while these prices may bring tears to the young reader, you did fail to put the wages paid in those days into the equation.

What made a big difference was the tax levels and the fact that most of the manufacturing was done within the country for goods sold. Borrowing was held to a minimum and any bank that would dare charge the rate they do now on their credit cards would have been run out of town.

Neither were billions of $$ sent overseas to influence regions in the world we would be better off to leave alone IMNHO

Back to the original topic. The first war had organized Govt. on both sides. The next one would not.

Nimrod71 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2009, 03:37:48 PM »

BB you are right we made some high wages back in those days. Net pay for a minimum wage worker for 40 hours was about $35. We made just about everything we used here. We had 8 textile factories here employing over 1,000 people. The main Oxford plant have over 300. Credit cards were only for the rich, unless you had a Sears card that was only good at Sears. Even there rate was less than 16%. Taxes were low, a person could live off minimum wage here if they managed their money and didn't have children. Things back then are just the reverse of we have now.

Foxxtrot · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2009, 03:56:40 PM »

I agree that the next one will be Mad Max Chaos of unorganized lynch mobs, gangs, and riots that will make 1968 Watts look like 5th Grade recess. When the cities run out of food, the rural folks had better be organized to lay down some lead to keep what food they have stored. I guess there won't be anything Civil about the next one. Not to mention 2/3 of Americans are obese now, I didn't see to many Civil War photos with fatties charging the hill with fixed bayonet.

Mohawk · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2009, 04:21:33 PM »

That map has to be one of the most hilarious things I've seen in my life.

The guy is former KGB! He is trained to do exactly this, disrupt the focus of the US and it's citizens and encourage disunity. Psy-ops, pure and simple. It's even embarrasing that the press is even entertaining everyone to even publish it.

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2009, 07:04:09 PM »

Have to agree there Mohawk. Its a crazy world we live in today.

BBF · « **Reply #13 on:** January 05, 2009, 10:55:37 AM »

Living in the sticks(rural) isn't going to do you a lot of good if the chaos last longer then a couple of days. Consider a loss of electrical power as the first thing to overcome. How long can you run on stand by power? Are you able to protect your live stock 24/7 360 deg. Could you stop a "dozer" from crushing into the side of your home with the blade held high enough to protect the operator?
Put yourself into the other shoes and see what you would do if you need to neutralize the defenders of a food/shelter source.

wncchester · « **Reply #14 on:** January 05, 2009, 02:27:39 PM »

" IF Civil War were to happen again... " this time it would actually have to be a civil war, not a mis-named setional war as it was in 1861-65. We got so dad-blamed many snow birds infiltrated here now there just at no way for it NOT be be a real civil war if we do and we really don't want that. We've been taking care of those silly carpet baggers so long I guess we are stuck with 'em forever now. Sad thing too.

Ga---do we REALLY have to stay on topic?!! Awh, man...

Nimrod71 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 05, 2009, 03:59:30 PM »

Now back to the New Civil War. Who will lead the secession movement, what state will be first? Do you think enough voters in a state would vote to leave the Union? As for the previous post about the amendments to the constitution, there is the 15Th then add the USA PATRIOT Act plus laws on sedition and treason, then throw in terrorism for good measure. Do you think the Government is going to stand by and hold the BATF, FBI, US Marshalls Service and Homeland Security at bay. There are federal laws against interfering with interstate commerce, who owns the federal highways in your state, why do you see the US on road signs. How about the mail, the U.S. Postal Service, they have there own police force, U.S. Postal Inspectors. Who will be the first to take over U.S. Military installations? Do you remember Ruby Ridge, Waco Texas? The Federal Government has called out the Military to back it up on several occasions in the past, remember when the U.S. Army took over the rail roads? Will the citizens vote to lose their welfare checks, social security checks, Medicare and Medicade. How about school and highway funding, who will make that up. There may be a Civil War but not in the terms as before, as posted above it will be one with no government, it will be mass of anarchist, hoodlums, drug addicts and criminals. This country will be plunged into the dark ages of city states where each has to protect his own.

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #16 on:** January 05, 2009, 09:53:42 PM »

Quote from: wncchester on January 05, 2009, 02:27:39 PM

" IF Civil War were to happen again... " this time it would actually have to be a civil war, not a mis-named setional war as it was in 1861-65. We got so dad-blamed many snow birds infiltrated here now there just at no way for it NOT be be a real civil war if we do and we really don't want that. We've been taking care of those silly carpet baggers so long I guess we are stuck with 'em forever now. Sad thing too.

Ga---do we REALLY have to stay on topic?!! Awh, man...

We do have a political forum, you know.?

SouthernByGrace · « **Reply #17 on:** January 06, 2009, 03:36:48 PM »

Nim, have you read the 2000 Confederate Constitution? Yes, the 2000 version. In the absence of an active government, it brings the 1861 version up to date with all that has happened in the world since then, and was even updated as late as 2005.

In the new Constitution, revival of the CSA gov't only requires 1 of the original Confederate States to ratify this version to become an active government once again. Remember, the CSA was NEVER dissolved, and a cease fire was never signed by either side at Appomattox, only a cessation of hostilities was informally recognized. It also formally recognizes Maryland as one of the original Confederate States as of 2000.

It provides for 3 different categories of Statehood;
A- The original Confederate States
B- Those who are invited to join.
C- Those who petition to join.

http://www.newconfederacy.com/confedcn.htm

SBG

Totenkopf · « **Reply #18 on:** January 06, 2009, 08:56:19 PM »

I don't know about this idea. In the Civil War the South had the means to have anything the North had. Even though the South had less of it all and put up a heck of a fight, still armament wise there was an even playing field.
In today's world I believe marshall law would be put in effect and it would be the military against the people. Any manufacturing plant that could make adequate weapons would probably be precision bombed. Military installations in the South would be reinforced with troops. This leaves small arms, the majority hunting rifles, shotguns and pistols against tanks, airplanes and missiles. Take into account the current spoiled mindset a lot of our people have today and I don't see it happening. Most folks today can't do without their fast food, cell phones, tv, a/c, automobiles....etc. These luxuries have turned into necessity for a lot of Americans. As far as if it were just federal level law enforcement, I don't believe they could handle a full succession like happened before. The military could decimate the South in days.
Now if it were a reflection of the election results where just the far north, east, west and Florida were the government and everywhere that was red were the Confederates and the soldiers in each area stuck with the people things could be different.

Foxxtrot · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2009, 05:00:34 AM »

What if the military leaders split within the Pentagon/Armed Forces, there are Southern Military Schools with leadership within top brass there. Would they not do the same as Lee? Who would they side with? There are so many facets of a complete failure of the United States Government and factions we have never thought of that would come into play. City folk would pay the worst...starvation and disease.

Dee · « **Reply #20 on:** January 08, 2009, 05:14:10 AM »

Totenkopf, I would agree with much of what you say regarding the American people. This is self evident simply by walking in a mall and sitting down in a busy walk area. You will see more fat kids than lean ones, and the adults are also fat butts as a whole.
HOWEVER! These fast food joints you speak of, along with cell phones, and automobiles under martial law, in all likely hood will NOT BE operating. At this point the fat folks are going to get a crash course on life.
As far as the military, they would no doubt SPLIT along loyalty lines. Some would NEVER fire on American citizens, and some would jump off a building on their head, if told to do so.
The scenarios are endless as to the out come and reaction but, one thing you CAN count on, is that when those city folks start getting hungry they will come shopping and will worry later about the consequences. Hell, they go shopping when the police beat up a drug dealer on camera.

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2009, 12:09:58 AM »

Dee I have to agree with you on just how the troops would react, both officer and noncom. The real buggaboos out there would be the Blackwater types as shown by how they acted in NO as well as in Iraq. You never know about the Mercs, anyone who goes to war for money, that covers all kinds. Good, bad, and indifferent.

Dee · « **Reply #22 on:** January 09, 2009, 12:56:01 AM »

Ga.W. I will agree on the ones whom fight for money.

Gary G · « **Reply #23 on:** January 09, 2009, 06:30:47 AM »

Well the eastern Europeans threw off their shackles of government control with little bloodshed. It was the "IDEA" of liberty in the minds of the people that won.

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #24 on:** January 09, 2009, 10:45:17 AM »

Quote from: Gary G on January 09, 2009, 06:30:47 AM

Well the eastern Europeans threw off their shackles of government control with little bloodshed. It was the "IDEA" of liberty in the minds of the people that won.

While that is true of today's version; when you look back on European history the fight for liberty has been long and very bloody. Some of our earliest immigrants in the 1800's came from these folks. Irish, Germans, Poles, and others fleeing from oppression. I feel it was a major reason that the Union army had no problem getting these people to join because of their longing for freedom themselves. Had they immigrated to the Southern states rather than in the north they would have felt compelted to join there also; I believe.

Also in pointing that out Gary G you've added to the idea that it is also very possible here without bloodshead. The fed is in such a bad state from a money standpoint if things go down hill any faster they wouldn't be able to mount a military response. Can't fight without money.