Author Topic: COL question for 243 WIN (Read 790 times)

Jal5 · « **on:** January 03, 2009, 11:29:34 AM »

I am just starting to reload for the first time. Followed all directions and went fine until the final bullet seating & crimping. I am using RCBS dies, 3 die set H4350 powder and CCI lg. rifle primers. The bullet is Hornady BTSP 100gr #2453.

First bullet 2.622 COL and second bullet was 2.607 after adjusting the die...it should seat and crimp in one motion. The manual shows COL in the Hornady book at 2.630...should that be maximum length? What about if you seat the bullets so that the COL is less than that?

I am confused and not sure what I am doing wrong and did not finish seating the other 8 I planned to do. RCBS instructions show setting the die for seating first, then adjusting for crimping. I think I got it messed up in adjusting for crimp and wound up seating #2 deeper? Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

Joe

Val · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2009, 11:46:09 AM »

It's not necessary to crimp bottle nose bullets used in rifles. Just seat the bullet after it's properly sized to the desireable overall length. I usually seat to the reloading manuals recommended seating dept and then determine the most accurate powder and powder weight. Then I play with the overall cartridge length by .010" increments to determine the best accuracey. Often the accuracy is well under MOA at the manuals recommended overall length and I'll leave it as is.

blpenn66502 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 03, 2009, 12:04:27 PM »

Joe,

When I choose to crimp rifle rounds, I always do that as a separate step and I'd recommend that you do that as well.

I suspect that when you set up the crimp you didn't back off on the seater enough and ended up seating the second round deeper.

The maximum length is shown in the front of the listing - 2.710. The loads however are developed for the specified COL. Typically seating deeper will cause higher pressures and shallower, lower pressures. With starting loads I would not be concerned with your slightly shorter rounds.

You will also find that there can/will be variance in the COL as the tip of the bullet will not be uniform so even with everything set, you will see some variance.

Keep it close to COL and you'll be fine.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #3 on:** January 03, 2009, 12:08:31 PM »

That's right. You shouldn't need to crimp, you can, its not wrong, you just likely do not "need to". Seating shorter than the manuals recommended legnth is a problem. Esp if your at or near max as you have reduced the cases capacity and in effect raised the pressures. Longer than legnth is OK if your doing it for a known reason, like seating to be with in a certain legnth from the rifling or seating to a cannalure FOR crimping. Generally this will slightly lower pressures for a given load and not so problem attic.

Its best to crimp in a second step with the seating die.

One tip I'll give is you should make up a dummy case with bullet seated. Now make one for every different bullet you will use. keep them in the die box and use them to set up dies for loading that bullet next time. One thing, be sure you trim that bullet and seat then projectile to exact what you want and the manual calls for as ALL other bullets will be identical to that one.

CW

Jal5 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2009, 12:51:08 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on January 03, 2009, 12:08:31 PM

That's right. You shouldn't need to crimp, you can, its not wrong, you just likely do not "need to". Seating shorter than the manuals recommended legnth is a problem. Esp if your at or near max as you have reduced the cases capacity and in effect raised the pressures.

thats what I thought that seating shorter raises the pressure. but I am at the begining load for that cartridge...do I use the two already loaded and seated short or pull them? thanks for the tip about the dummy round too, that should help.

Even if the bullet does have a cannelure, you don't have to crimp it?

Joe

cwlongshot · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2009, 12:59:39 PM »

Quote from: Jal5 on January 03, 2009, 12:51:08 PM

Quote from: cwlongshot on January 03, 2009, 12:08:31 PM
That's right. You shouldn't need to crimp, you can, its not wrong, you just likely do not "need to". Seating shorter than the manuals recommended legnth is a problem. Esp if your at or near max as you have reduced the cases capacity and in effect raised the pressures.

that's what I thought that seating shorter raises the pressure. but I am at the beginning load for that cartridge...do I use the two already loaded and seated short or pull them? thanks for the tip about the dummy round too, that should help.

Even if the bullet does have a cannelure, you don't have to crimp it?

Joe

That is correct. Again you can there is no harm in doing so. Sometimes its actually advantageous to crimp, depending on powder. With the mag pistol rounds and ball powders. Its necessary as it keeps the powder burn more uniform and complete.

A for the two you have that are short. What do you have for a puller? Kinetic or collet or none? For the sake of consistancy I would pull and re-load.

CW

Jal5 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2009, 01:30:32 PM »

CW no puller right now, need to pick up one!

Joe

cwlongshot · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2009, 01:36:16 PM »

I recommend you start out with a "hammer" type called a kinetic bullet puller. They are relatively cheap and allow you to recover all components for use again.

CW

wncchester · « **Reply #8 on:** January 03, 2009, 02:03:49 PM »

"The manual shows COL in the Hornady book at 2.630...should that be maximum length? "

Understand your confusion, many folks have it. Actually, there is no "should" to it. The books length is simply what they used to develop the listed data.

There are three things about OAL that should always be observed. The loaded bullet should be retained in the neck, it should not fall into the case nor fall out of it. The bullet should not be jammed into the rifling when it's chambered. The cartridge should fit and feed from the magazine. Other that that, it's pretty much up to you.

Using the always mandated precaution of starting a new load with a less than book max charge. ONLY work up IF no pressure indications occur and you will automatically take care of any potential pressure differences you and the book makers may have, be it from differences in powder lots, primers, bullets, brass, rifle chambers or ... OAL.

I use the same bullet as you, it does deer good. I don't bother to crimp it and I don't seat at the crimp ring. I find that most factory rifles and hunting bullets, mine anyway, shoot best from maybe .030" to as much as .150" off the rifling.

Oh yeah. Do get an impact bullet puller. It's inexpensive enough and more versatile than the collet types. Suggest the RCBS, all of them things are tough but they do break sometimes and big green has a life-time warrantee. I like that for breakable stuff!

Jal5 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 03, 2009, 02:53:38 PM »

After readjusting the die a couple of times I was able to seat 6 rounds at 2.650 which is what the factory cartridges are using those components, so I think I got it finally. I will get a bullet puller tomorrow though. 4 rounds are at variable seating depths due to my adjustments, might as well start those over again. Thanks for the help.

Joe

Jal5 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2009, 04:00:55 PM »

I think I am getting the hang of this now. Seated a bunch more today, some at the same charge load and the other half at 0.4gr more, still well under the max. load. Now to get some time at the range this week.

thanks for the help!

Steve P · « **Reply #11 on:** January 07, 2009, 07:01:01 AM »

My rule of thumb......base of bullet even with bottom of the neck. NOT down into the shoulder or case area. This is where I kind of start. If the ammo will not chamber or will not fit into the magazine, I may have to seat it a little deep. Magazine and barrel rifling will make this determination for me.

If ammo easily fits magazine and chambers, you can work at seating the bullet shallower so closer to your rifling, but you want to make sure you have at LEAST 1/10" of bullet bearing surface being held by your case neck.

Seated depth of your bullets have a minute effect on pressures when using under max loads. You can shoot your four shots, without having to pull the bullets, and will likely see no difference in accuracy.

If you look at the tip of your Hornady bullets, you can likely see the exposed lead having a little different shape on each of the bullets. If the ogive of the bullet is not fitting perfectly with your RCBS seating stem, this exposed lead can give you different seating depths also. Unless you are trying to shoot teeny tiny groups, you will not notice this either.

LIke mentioned earlier, most of my die boxes have "dummy" rounds where I have used unprimed and empty brass and seated seperate brands of bullets to match my magazine or chamber. I just have to pull out one of these 'dummies' to adjust my seating die and away I go.

With .243, you could likely do your load work-up in 1.0 grain increments. When you find a sweet spot where 45 - 46 or 46-48 grains or whatever (just example numbers NOT load recommendations) then you can do .5 or .3 grain changes in charges to do a final dial-in on your load. It is suprising how many of my loads came out exactly on a whole grain load (45.0 or 48.0, etc.)

Good questions, but nothing to sweat over. Go out and shoot your reloads and come home and reload them again.

Steve

epanzella · « **Reply #12 on:** January 07, 2009, 10:34:30 AM »

The OAL listed in loading manuals is the reccommended max. What they are telling you is that if you don't go over this length, you can expect that round to chamber and function in any factory rifle in that caliber. While it is true that seating a bullet deeper raises pressure the diference is well within the safety margin you would have to leave while working up any new load.

Jal5 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 07, 2009, 01:06:26 PM »

I bought the quinetics bullet puller- really deformed the soft tip of those Hornady SPBT bullets though! I think I will order the collet type puller maybe Hornady cam-lok, they didn't have any in town so that will be online order.

Reloaded the cases I had seated too deep plus a few more, so now I have two batches- 9 of the start load and 9 of the start+0.4 gr. If the weather gets decent I will try them over the weekend and see how I do. I will definitely make up a dummy round using this bullet too.

Joe

gdolby · « **Reply #14 on:** January 07, 2009, 04:17:18 PM »

good day to all. put some coton or a chunk of foam in your hammer head. will keep from deforming your bullet tips as bad.......Bill

Jal5 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2009, 05:22:05 AM »

Bill I had the same idea will probably use a small piece of foam.

Joe

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2009, 11:00:36 AM »

Use the cotton. It's much easier to replace. If getting longer bullets out, it compacts easier also.

HWD

sr sawyer · « **Reply #17 on:** January 10, 2009, 09:19:17 PM »

This is a little late, but if I seat bullets too deep one or two light raps with kinetic puller will move it out far enough so you can just run back through the seating die to achieve correct length without completely dismantling the load.

harrys · « **Reply #18 on:** January 17, 2009, 01:46:18 AM »

I like to keep mine just off the rifling so the bullet doesn't have to jump ,, i find i get better accuracy with loads tht way, and be sure they still cycle through ur action. I also use .5 increments till i get a tight group. Just because u like a powder doesn't mean ur gun does try different powders also.Every gun is different in what it likes.Always load for accuracy speed means nothing if it doesn't shoot good groups.

Autorim · « **Reply #19 on:** January 17, 2009, 06:20:56 AM »

I use the magazine length and the amount of freebore to determine COL. I load most of my rifles to have about .020 inch of bullet jump before touching the rifling leade. You need to be careful about loading too long.

If the bullet fits the rifling leade too tightly, it is entirely possible to chamber a cartridge, attempt extraction and remove the case only, leaving the bullet lodged in the barrel and a rifle full of powder.

Bullet tip deformation may be unsightly, but has no measurable effect on practical accuracy. The bullet base is the critical element.

You can buy various tools from Sinclair to measure rifling freebore and other critical measurements. You can also load a dummy round with no primer and no powder. Insert a case fired in that rifle into you sizing die just enough to size the case to hold bullet. Seat a bullet long and load it in the rifle so that as you push it into the chamber it will wedge into the rifling leade and push the bullet back into the case. It is best to have a rifle that does not have a plunger type elector.

Slowly extract the case and hope the bullet stays in the case. You must have a cleaning rod handy to bump the bullet out in case it doesn't. If you are successful you will have a dummy round with an OAL with the bullet jammed into the rifling. Adjust you seater to seat .023- .035 shorter.

Or just load to and OAL that is sure to feed and chamber every time.