Author Topic: Unpredictable accuracy (Read 2537 times)

yorketransport · « **on:** January 04, 2009, 04:45:06 PM »

I had a few of my Contender barrels out today and they just wouldn't shoot well. These are proven loads in barrels that have shown excellent accuracy in the past. In one case the groups were more like patterns. Others had shown groups double what I expect from them. To prove that it wasn't just me, I had a friend who has proven to be an excellent shot with a Contender try as well. He had the same results.

All the screws were torqued to the same specs as usual, scope mounts tight, same cleaning procedure as usual, and the rest was solid. The only thing I could think of was that the forend was somehow causing the problem. It's a Pachmyr forend with the hanger, so I'm not sure what I can do to help it. Are there any suggestions?

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2009, 07:10:36 AM »

Were these barrels and loads all on the same frame? Looking for something common to all instances. You've already eliminated the shooter. Walt

Grumulkin · « **Reply #2 on:** January 05, 2009, 08:28:38 AM »

Perhaps you could provide more information on the cartridges involved, barrel lengths, groups shot, etc.

If you stored your barrels with oil in the bore and didn't remove it before shooting, that will throw the first shots off by quite a bit. Also, some barrels shoot to a very different point of impact with a clean vs a fouled barrel.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** January 05, 2009, 11:36:00 AM »

While certainly not the only or necessarily the main reason that unpredictable nature of the TC platform is one reason I no longer own any of them. I messed around with them for a lot of years at times getting super tiny groups and at other times getting unacceptable large groups. My frustration level continued to grow. Then just when I needed that legendary TC customer service the most from them they refused to even try to cooperate with me. It was the final straw. I sold them all and every piece of Contender/Encore related gear I owned.

At times I'm tempted to get back into them but each time I am tempted I just remember the frustrations they gave me and the temptation passes.

DRM · « **Reply #4 on:** January 05, 2009, 01:23:23 PM »

Do you have anything else contacting the barrel. I had an issue with a barrel band used as a sling attachment. They will move just slightly under recoil and will change the harmonics of the barrel. I might shooting the barrel without any forend. Try resting the gun on a narrow bag contacting the gun just in front of trigger guard. See if that gets you a better group.

Steve P · « **Reply #5 on:** January 05, 2009, 02:11:25 PM »

Quote from: yorketransport on January 04, 2009, 04:45:06 PM

I had a few of my Contender barrels out today and they just wouldn't shoot well. These are proven loads in barrels that have shown excellent accuracy in the past. In one case the groups were more like patterns. Others had shown groups double what I expect from them. To prove that it wasn't just me, I had a friend who has proven to be an excellent shot with a Contender try as well. He had the same results.

All the screws were torqued to the same specs as usual, scope mounts tight, same cleaning procedure as usual, and the rest was solid. The only thing I could think of was that the forend was somehow causing the problem. It's a Pachmyr forend with the hanger, so I'm not sure what I can do to help it. Are there any suggestions?

Like proven loads in same exact barrel that would not shoot? Or a proven .30-30 load that worked in one barrel but would not work in another? My buddy and I both ordered 357 Max barrels. Came from same dealer in same shipping box. Barrels ended up being very close in accuracy, but load was .5 grain of powder different between the barrels. My buddies 6.5 TCU loads will not even fit in my 6.5 TCU barrel.

NO two T/C barrels are exactly the same. Each have their own little quirks. You have to tailor your load to a specific barrel. They can be close, but close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.

If you have a specific load, that worked excellent in a given barrel, and today that given barrel did not like the load, you have a problem with frame, fore end, or weather (temperature/humidity).

Good luck in your quest.

Steve

GameHauler · « **Reply #6 on:** January 05, 2009, 02:13:20 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on January 05, 2009, 11:36:00 AM

While certainly not the only or necessarily the main reason that unpredictable nature of the TC platform is one reason I no longer own any of them. I messed around with them for a lot of years at times getting super tiny groups and at other times getting unacceptable large groups. My frustration level continued to grow. Then just when I needed that legendary TC customer service the most from them they refused to even try to cooperate with me. It was the final straw. I sold them all and every piece of Contender/Encore related gear I owned.

At times I'm tempted to get back into them but each time I am tempted I just remember the frustrations they gave me and the temptation passes.

$:-\$

You do not own a TC

$:-\$

This is my Main stay TC site.
I have downloaded many of your TC post and just can not believe it

There is no doubt in my mind that you are a man of attitude and fortitude.
May I NEVER cross you

Did I say

Mike

Keith L · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2009, 02:38:05 PM »

"NO two T/C barrels are exactly the same. Each have their own little quirks. You have to tailor your load to a specific barrel. They can be close, but close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades."

Not only TC barrels. Each gun is unique. We have half a dozen 700 BDLs in 7MM-08 in the family, and all shoot a different load.

Lone Star · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2009, 02:51:13 PM »

Quote

I had a few of my Contender barrels out today and they just wouldn't shoot well. These are proven loads in barrels that have shown excellent accuracy in the past. In one case the groups were more like patterns. Others had shown groups double what I expect from them...The only thing I could think of was that the forend was somehow causing the problem. It's a Pachmyr forend with the hanger...

Frustrating for certain. Assuming that the good loads were fired in the same barrels and you know about clean barrels, etc, perhaps it was the temperature at the range. It is mid-winter, and if the loads were developed at 90F but fired yesterday at 10F, you can expect different results due to less robust ignition and different powder burning characteristics. Still, I used to shoot silhouette at -25F and at +75F and I never noticed a large difference in grouping.

Based on my over 30 years of experience with Contenders, I cannot believe that the Pachy forend would cause much of a problem in accuracy, particularly with bull barrels. Was that forend on when the barrels shot well? You have eliminated almost everything with the weapon, the load and the shooter, the next to consider is the external environment....

.

chazgin · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2009, 03:38:53 PM »

You didn't mention the calibers. It is possible that you stretched the frame with max loads and your round pin holes are now oval. This would certainly lead to shots all over the paper.

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2009, 05:59:39 PM »

I have owned many of them and started with them close to as far back as Ladobe did but yes I have abandoned them. I've had a huge amount of experience with them hunting, plinking and target shooting both in formal registered matches and in informal money matches.

I just sold them all and walked away. I have the experience to talk about them but it's sure all a few years old now.

Quote from: GameHauler on January 05, 2009, 02:13:20 PM

Quote from: Graybeard on January 05, 2009, 11:36:00 AM
While certainly not the only or necessarily the main reason that unpredictable nature of the TC platform is one reason I no longer own any of them. I messed around with them for a lot of years at times getting super tiny groups and at other times getting unacceptable large groups. My frustration level continued to grow. Then just when I needed that legendary TC customer service the most from them they refused to even try to cooperate with me. It was the final straw. I sold them all and every piece of Contender/Encore related gear I owned.

At times I'm tempted to get back into them but each time I am tempted I just remember the frustrations they gave me and the temptation passes.

$:-\$
You do not own a TC $:-\$
This is my Main stay TC site.
I have downloaded many of your TC post and just can not believe it
There is no doubt in my mind that you are a man of attitude and fortitude.
May I NEVER cross you

Did I say

Mike

Quote

Based on my over 30 years of experience with Contenders, I cannot believe that the Pachy forend would cause much of a problem in accuracy, particularly with bull barrels.

I certainly agree with that. I got some of my best ever groups with the Pachmayr fore end on my barrels. I came to consider it an accuracy enhancer. My smallest group ever with a TC was 0.27" CTC with my old original 7-30 barrel that began life as a 21" rifle barrel. It was cut back to 14-3/8" by a local gunsmith. I had him leave that extra just in case it needed to be done over. It didn't.

It had a Pachmayr fore end and grip when that group was shot and that frame and barrel had the most loose fit or any I ever owned the pin would fall out of it's own weight but it sure did shoot.

Dezynco · « **Reply #11 on:** January 06, 2009, 02:00:43 AM »

The only thing I can imagine is that you scope has gone South. Try removing it and shooting with the open sights, or replace it with another scope.

I don't mean to argue, but my TC's are all pretty consistent. Usually my "Go To" gun for accuracy as well as consistency, regardless of which barrel I pin on. Maybe me and a couple of zillion other folks are just lucky......

Dezynco · « **Reply #12 on:** January 06, 2009, 02:10:24 AM »

Oh, I see that you tried several different barrels! The only thing I can think of that something is wrong with the frame. If it's locking up correctly, check to see if the hammer spring has gotten weak....

I know it may sound like a stretch, but I'll relay this bit of info to you from my Black Powder Cartridge experience. If you're not getting good, consistent ignition, the accuracy will suffer. This is not as much of a problem with smokeless powders, but it can make all the difference in the world with a Sharps or Rolling Block with black powder. It's not that you get a stronger or weaker "spark", it's just that the hammer blow varies from one shot to the next.

In a Sharps-style rifle, the gun will go off with a broken firing pin also. However, the accuracy will go to heck. So....you might check for a broken firing pin also. My Encore would go off every time, but the groups were all over the place. Then per chance I let the hammer snap on an empty chamber by accident and noticed that the barrel wouldn't open. What I discovered is that the firing pin had broken. The gun would go "bang", without fail.

Hope this helps.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2009, 11:12:35 AM »

My T/C Contender and Encores have been consistent and dependable but I guess T/C and others that have sold me barrels and frames know to only sell me the good ones. I don't use hanger bars, float the forearms, torque the forearm screws, etc. and all of my barrels except one are T/C barrels. In addition, for the few times I've had a problem with a T/C product, T/C has only been helpful and courteous to me.

blhof · « **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2009, 01:26:17 PM »

Did you add a hammer extension? Did that with my tack driver and both accuracy and consistant ignition went south. I have since met 2 others at the range with Contenders and extensions and upon talking found they had problems since the addition. Upon removal, their problems ceased.

DanChamberlain · « **Reply #15 on:** January 07, 2009, 11:22:48 AM »

I've only owned 4 Contenders and maybe six different calibers. They have always been consistent for me. Of course, I had to be consistent with them.

Dan

yorketransport · « **Reply #16 on:** January 07, 2009, 05:59:18 PM »

Alright, lets see if I can get through this. All the barrels were mounted on the same frame that I've had for about 2 years. The barrels in question are a .35 Rem Hunter barrel with a Bushnell Elite 3200 2-6x scope, a 10" 7mm TCU bull barrel with a Nikon 2x scope, a 10" .45 Win Mag with a 3x Burris scope, and a 15" TC custom shop 45-70. All are shooting loads that have been worked up for that particular barrel and scope combo on the same frame, with the same forend. All of the loads are mid-weight charges from Hodgdon's load data. The 45-70 loads are Trapdoor level loads using 45gr of Varget and a 405gr cast bullet. Powders and bullets are all from the same lots as previous loads.

I think that Lone Star and Steve P may have a good point about the weather conditions. The loads were all worked up at about 50 degand raining, and it was an unusually cold and dry, for around here, at 30deg that morning.

I have been considering getting one of Georgia Jim's pillar bedded forends. Maybe that will be my next step. For that matter, Maybe my friend and I were both having an off day. We have done that before. I won't have a chance to go back out for a few weeks, so I guess I'll see then if I'm doing any better.

Thanks for all the info so far everyone.

Andrew

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2009, 02:10:34 AM »

Temperature conditions and variability are a good point. I'm somewhat surprised that no none has asked about how the ammo has been stored- under what conditions of temperature and humidity, and for how long.

jhalcott · « **Reply #18 on:** January 08, 2009, 10:13:32 AM »

Ken ,that was MY first thought. I had loaded several hundred 22-250 one winter. They were tack drivers at 35 degrees, but at 90+ in the summer they were terrible.Too hot for that gun also. I kept a 100 round box of 6MM in the jeep for 3 to 4 months, bouncing around on the floor. When accuracy fell way off I checked a couple. The 4350 powder looked more like ball powder than stick! Another little thing MIGHT be IF you and your bud had been to a batchelor party the night before. Late nights and a few adult beverages can WRECK your eyes and nerves for a day or two!

Keith L · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2009, 10:29:12 AM »

And if you are approaching maturity like some of us then even an extra cup of coffee can do it.

Tommyt · « **Reply #20 on:** January 09, 2009, 03:53:02 AM »

Quote from: Keith L on January 08, 2009, 10:29:12 AM

And if you are approaching maturity like some of us then even an extra cup of coffee can do it.

Here Here

Steve P · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2009, 09:19:17 AM »

Quote from: Keith L on January 08, 2009, 10:29:12 AM

And if you are approaching maturity like some of us then even an extra cup of coffee can do it.

Not me. That extra cup of coffee helps me shake enough to aim at two targets at the same time....

Steve

yorketransport · « **Reply #22 on:** January 09, 2009, 06:26:21 PM »

The ammo was loaded back in July using the last of those lots of components. They have all been stored in my garage, where my reloading bench is. The temperature is held at about 50deg in there, but I imagine that the humidity does vary quite a bit.

As far as the other "outside" factors, I steer clear of caffine and other adult beverages, and I spent the night home with the kids. Come to think of it, I can't vouch for what my buddy did the night before. Maybe I was just having an off day and he was recovering from a wild night. I'll have to ask him.

Hammer47 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 10, 2009, 12:04:48 PM »

If you are shooting hot weather accuracy loads in cold weather the accuracy will surely go south especially if the loads are on the light side to begin with.

454-hunter · « **Reply #24 on:** January 10, 2009, 02:39:22 PM »

I am defi?a?tly voinb to lea? towards operator error. Why well I am no scientist but tne odds of two or three taylor made loads and two or three scopes and undamaged barrels all being bad are astronomical .Now i aint saying this to p... anybody off but a poor crvtsma? blames his tools.

Also i would suggest you to wait for a good day take your rest (which by th way was not mentioned) and try loading fresh but identi al loads and bring the old loads and keep them seperate then fire three shoot vrpups using the old then the fresh loads and then write ba k and tell me what happens.
stan

yorketransport · « **Reply #25 on:** January 10, 2009, 06:07:31 PM »

454-hunter, the rest I use is a Caldwell Rock Deluxe with my forearms resting on a sand bag so that the grip doesn't make contact with the bench during recoil.

Quote

Why well I am no scientist but tne odds of two or three taylor made loads and two or three scopes and undamaged barrels all being bad are astronomical

I agree. This is the reason that I originally suspected the forend, or possibly the frame. These are the constants in the equation. I would load up a fresh batch of ammo, but the lot #s would not be the same, so the test wouldn't really be fair or accurate and just add another variable. Trying different barrels and a different shooter told me that while not imposible, it was less likely that it was me or the barrel having problems.

I actually think I figured out what the problem was. The day I went out, I forgot to bring my leather shooting glove. Instead I put on a pair of light weight fleece gloves to keep my hands warm. I know that with my BFR, changing gloves makes a significant differance in point of impact, so it seems reasonable that it could change the overall group as well. This combined with unusual weather conditions would probably be enough to throw the groups. By the time I get a chance to go back out, the weather should be back to the usual 50 and raining. I guess I can do a fair follow up then.

sr sawyer · « **Reply #26 on:** January 16, 2009, 03:17:09 PM »

Read years ago when I first got into the Contender that for best accuracy you should orient the hinge pin and install the same way each time you change barrels. Consistency is equal to accuracy. I'm not as consistent as I once was and seems some other parts have followed suit.

Keith L · « **Reply #27 on:** January 16, 2009, 03:41:27 PM »

Quote from: sr sawyer on January 16, 2009, 03:17:09 PM

Read years ago when I first got into the Contender that for best accuracy you should orient the hinge pin and install the same way each time you change barrels. Consistency is equal to accuracy. I'm not as consistent as I once was and seems some other parts have followed suit.

If the holes in the barrel hinge and frame are round as they are on all of mine, and if the pin is round as all of mine are, you can orient the pin until the cows come home and nothing will change. If they are not round the whole works should go back to TC and get fixed.

There is an industry that has built up around snake oil to fix TC "problems." When I first got into Contenders I tried all of them, and am now back to original configuration. I still use O rings to float the barrels because it can't hurt and is cheap, but no funny pins, no fancy hanger bars, no torque wenches. And it all works well.

sr sawyer · « **Reply #28 on:** January 16, 2009, 04:19:29 PM »

Never eluded to out of round holes. Just stated that I read a long time time ago that the pin orientation might give a slight advantage to accuracy especially when changing barrels back and forth. Stands to reason, .00001 can make difference. Bought my first in 1980, a 10" .30 herrett and still have it. A real deer slayer. Hornet and 218 Bee plus 7-30 waters and several others including rifle length. When I got into the contenders information was what you found in the monthly magazine. Just passing along old info.

Keith L · « **Reply #29 on:** January 16, 2009, 07:24:40 PM »

There was a brand new Contender owner out here a while ago that read some genius' opinion that tension on forearm screws was so critical that you had to re-sight in each barrel when you changed them because even with a torque wrench you could never get it back to the same tension. He had never shot his Contender, but cut the ears off of his forend so he could change barrels and not have to touch the screws.

The difference that .00001 makes in concentricity at the hinge will have less impact on POI than how tightly you are holding the grip. The big difference with most of these tricks is psychological. If the shooter thinks they will help then they will. Shooting requires concentration, and at times a good attitude about what we have for gear is enough to do the trick.