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Author Topic: IMR 4759 in ML  (Read 2318 times)

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Offline HuntHard

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IMR 4759 in ML
« on: January 05, 2009, 08:57:34 AM »
Has anyone tried smokless IMR 4759 in there inline? I hear it is the ticket I have heard of ppl shooting 4227 and that is a no no. But I have heard that 4759 doesn't make near the pressure that 4227 does and it is so much cleaner than black powder. Any ideas would be nice. I mean shooting it in an encore or other inline not the savage.
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Offline Keith Lewis

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2009, 12:39:44 PM »
I think you will likely get few results from this. Any smokeless powder in a rifle not designed for smokeless is just asking for trouble. Besides being potentially dangerous it definately would cancel out any warantee claim from damage. I know there are people that suggest this but there are also people that take drugs and drink too much.
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Offline alsaqr

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2009, 01:22:42 PM »
Quote
I mean shooting it in an encore or other inline not the savage.


An Encore is not constructed to fire smokeless powder and TC warns against it.  Do it at your own risk.   
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Offline Semisane

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2009, 05:25:30 PM »
Hey HuntHard, I've often wondered the same thing myself - as I'm sure others have.

But its a 

 

I suspect there are a few smokeless powders that "could" be used in modern in-lines with the proper controls.  But manufacturers would be crazy to talk about it.  I've seen enough questions and confusion about powder and pellets on these forums to understand why.  Add in a little confusion over volume vs. weight and the worms really start coming out of the can.  For example, an accidental double charge of Pyrodex or Triple Seven will make a BIG boom and may hurt your shoulder or give you scope nose, but it's not likely to blow up your gun.  A double charge of smokeless may well do so. 

If you go to Hodgdon's reloading data center ( http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp ) and select Rifle in the "Load Type" box and select 45-70 Government (Trapdoor Rifles)* in the "Cartridge" box, you will find a lot of low pressure smokeless loads.  I'd guess the trapdoor rifle is a lot weaker than modern in-line muzzle loaders and that some - if not all - of those "starting loads" would be OK in an in-line.   But I wouldn't try any of them without a LONG string between me and the trigger.   Then too, beyond pressure there's the issue of the different way black powder and its subs build pressure, as opposed to the way smokeless does - the "pressure curve".  I don't know what it is or how it would come into play, but I know it's there.   :-\  Even the Savage rifle is limited to certain powders.

Anyway, I would love to see the manufactures put some loading data out there.  But they never will.
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Offline Hammerspur

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2009, 11:47:58 PM »
I saw this question last night but held off on stepping in until now.

I too suppose that it is practically possible with a good strong modern inline...IF an appropriate powder is chosen and all charges are scale weighed.

I checked the burn rate of 4759 in the chart on this page: http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

Seems in the ballpark for what I've read about true smokeless muzzleloaders.

The old standard formula for loading smokeless in black powder cartridge rifles (most of which are probably not as strong as today's inlines) is IMR 4198 @ 40% of black powder load.

Like Semisane, I might want to keep that long string handy too!   :-\
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Offline Hairtrigger

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 12:50:54 AM »
Quote from: Hammerspur on January 05, 2009, 11:47:58 PM
I The old standard formula for loading smokeless in black powder cartridge rifles (most of which are probably not as strong as today's inlines) is IMR 4198 @ 40% of black powder load.

 

Interesting ... 4198 is in the middle of the burn rate chart.
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Offline Keith Lewis

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2009, 08:44:24 AM »
I use Accurate 8700 in my 40-65 Rolling Block but it was a 7X57 action with a brand new Badger barrel. It performs very close to black powder including filling the case to the top just like black powder and in that cartridge gun it will also make some fouling in the barrel but nothing like black powder. I have several muzzleloaders including a White Thunderbolt which I have heard rumors of those shooting smokeless; but with the selection of real muzzleloading powders available I just cannot talk myself into taking that kind of chance. Even if you managed to get the rifle to shoot once with a long string and no damage what is the chance that the second or third shot will create a disaster???? Just not worth the chance!!!!! If you really want to shoot smokeless then get a rifle designed specifically for it.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2009, 08:59:46 AM »
I'd do exactly whatever the manual that comes with the rifle says.  I once saw a Ruger Super Black that had over 200 really heavy charges of Bulls Eye fired in it.  To it's credit, it held up just fine until it blew all to pieces.
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Offline TRM-1

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2009, 12:25:51 PM »
If you want to shoot smokeless with a encore get a smokeless barrel.      www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com
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Offline 12ptdroptine

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2009, 02:09:21 PM »
There is a reason these manufacturer's warn against use of smokeless powder. It might be more than your gun you blow up...Like was said earlier..they might function just fine ..until the stress finally cause's failure. Then what..and who might be the one shooting it when it doe's? Your child? friend? It isnt worth the risk. I did some research and bought a smokeless one. There are barrel mfg's out there. Be Safe Drop
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2009, 02:53:00 PM »
Has anyone here actually seen a recommended compressed load of 4759 in any reloading manual???

I doubt it.

That's what you're doing by seating a projectile on the powder in a muzzleloader.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2009, 02:16:16 AM »
You want to shoot smokeless, BUY A SAVAGE.
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Offline AlbanyCO

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2009, 06:46:37 PM »
Shrapnel hurts.
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Offline Hammerspur

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2009, 12:25:51 AM »
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Offline TRM-1

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2009, 11:33:31 AM »
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2009, 02:28:20 AM »
A great danger exists when messing around with IMR 4759. That danger is IMR 4756.

That one little number at the end of both often seems to be ignored and the rest of it all that is looked at. These two are NOT the same powder and do not have the same burn rate. Data for them often gets confused some times even in reputable loading manuals.

For that reason it is very important no matter the application to be 100% certain which powder the data is really for and that it is the powder you actually have in hand.

Then too some times folks use powders that are totally inappropriate for the task at hand such as using smokeless powder in rifles designed for use with BLACK POWDER only.
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Offline Doug B.

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2009, 03:44:55 AM »
I will play it safe and use the powder that was intended for my H & R in-line. My wife and kids still need a husband/dad. 
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Offline Lane

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Re: IMR 4759 in ML
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2009, 08:12:12 AM »
Quote from: HuntHard on January 05, 2009, 08:57:34 AM
Has anyone tried smokless IMR 4759 in there inline? I hear it is the ticket I have heard of ppl shooting 4227 and that is a no no. But I have heard that 4759 doesn't make near the pressure that 4227 does and it is so much cleaner than black powder. Any ideas would be nice. I mean shooting it in an encore or other inline not the savage.

With the advent of BlackHorn 209, there is no need to chance smokeless powder in your muzzleloader ;)

http://blackhorn209.com/

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