Author Topic: the guide 45-70 or 457.... (Read 4293 times)

U.S. Soldier · « **on:** January 06, 2009, 08:06:09 PM »

im thinking about getting one of the guide guns and was wondering how much the stainless guide guns ran new?? i woulod also like to put a synthetic camo stock on it, do they make after market synthetics for these rifles? and last but not least, what do you know about the 457??? ive heard that you can shoot 45-70 in the 457, and that the 457's power rivals the 458... other than that ive never even heard or seen it...

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 06, 2009, 08:18:40 PM »

The SS 1895GS sells for about $575-$600.

Tim

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_323/products_id/41204

U.S. Soldier · « **Reply #2 on:** January 06, 2009, 09:51:43 PM »

and where the heck can i find synthetic replacement stocks that will fit the guide gun??? would love to get a camo, but black will do....

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #3 on:** January 07, 2009, 02:21:55 AM »

believe me if your a handloader the loads you can find for a 4570 are all your going to want in that gun.

Chas. · « **Reply #4 on:** January 09, 2009, 04:01:54 AM »

457 is new to me too. It's also new to Google as there's no reference to a 457 rifle cartridge.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** January 09, 2009, 05:23:10 AM »

Try 457 WWG or 457 Wild West Guns Magnum, even Hodgdon shows data for it, but all it is is a 45-70 loaded long with a bit more powder.

Tim

http://www.wildwestguns.com/ammunition.html

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 11, 2009, 01:41:47 AM »

My opinion is stick with the 45-70, ammo, brass are more available. And the 45-70 can be loaded to more than most guys want to shoot.

Don't know much or hear much on synthetic stocks for the guide gun, but if you just want a more durable stock material, then just get a can of spray on bedliner. It works very well and leaves a nice hard finish, that will repell water and hold up in some of the harshest environment.

S.B. · « **Reply #7 on:** January 11, 2009, 05:37:24 PM »

Won't the .457 shoot both rounds? Join this forum and ask your questions here. http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php?board=56.0
Steve

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:33:09 AM »

The 457 Wild West Guns Magnum is a superfluous cartridge. It is 1/10 inch longer than the 45-70. You can achieve the same performance by modifying the Marlin 1895 action to cycle a 2.67" round and loading the 45-70 to that length. In the Wild West conversion they have to do this modification besides run a reamer down the chamber. For the 45-70 one can just do the modification and seat bullets out farther. Because most bullet cannelures for 45-70 bullets are intended for around a 2.55" cartridge length one should use a Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp independent of case length and cannelure position. The 350 grain Speer would seat to the cannelure and offer about a 2.665" cartridge length.

The 457 WWG Magnum is slightly more powerful than a 45-70 at its specified 2.55" length. The 45-70 equals the 457 WWG Magnum if bullets are seated to the same overall cartridge length. Neither the 457 WWG Magnum nor 45-70 comes close to the power of the 458 Winchester Magnum.

S.B. · « **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2009, 08:05:20 AM »

There is no lever gun that will hold the pressure generated by the .458 Winchester Magnum?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2009, 08:40:33 AM »

I think the BLR would be one that may work if it will cycle.

Tim

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #11 on:** January 12, 2009, 08:57:55 AM »

45-70 Government 73.6 grains water relative case capacity
458 Winchester Magnum 93.1 grains water relative case capacity

No way the 45-70 can approach the power of the 458 WM.

I would hate to see what would happen to those pot metal parts in a Browning BLR if chambered in a 458 Winchester Magnum.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:31:23 AM »

The BLR is factory chambered in a couple short mags with case heads of .555" with SAAMI MAPS well over 60kpsi, do the math.

Recoil in such a light rifle would be another matter tho!!

Tim

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=003B&cat_id=034&type_id=006

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=161

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=35

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

Bolt Thrust

Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

S.B. · « **Reply #13 on:** January 12, 2009, 11:54:01 AM »

Quote from: U.S. Soldier on January 06, 2009, 09:51:43 PM

and where the heck can i find synthetic replacement stocks that will fit the guide gun??? would love to get a camo, but black will do....

Fleebay?
Steve

S.B. · « **Reply #14 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:14:36 PM »

EsoxLucius, I've seen in your posts the word superfluous used before, so, I looked it up and the first meaning in my dictionary is "Too Much", how can it be too much when many in the hunting world use calibers such as (your example) .458 Winchester African Magnums? The .457 was designed and chambered in Alaska, where brown bears are common and present all over, especially near running water. What's your reasoning for calling this cartridge superfluous?
Steve

efremtags · « **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:04:26 PM »

There is little practical gain that a 457 will gain over the 45/70 as mentioned allowing for longer OAL. While the 45/70 can be shot from a 457 chamber, it is similar to shooting 38 in a 357, you can't interchange without thourough cleaning between chamberings of the 2 rounds. The crud ring the shorter round will create will effect chambering of the longer round.

457 brass is only made by 1 vendor with the correct hea stamp, and is much more expensive than good 45/70 brass. There is only 1 loaded ammo manuf I am aware of.

There is a lot of hype around some of these rounds. I have and love my 45/70, but have no illusions that it is the overwhelming behemoth that many tout it to be.

458WM was touted by many as marginal stopper in Africa, thus creation of 458lott and similar rounds. I am not sure how a cartridge designed for 2/3 the pressure and case capacity can match the 458, let alone claim power factor of these rounds. If you need a stopper, you need to drive 500gr 215oFPS (NE standard).

Superfluous as an adjective means serving no useful purpose, which describes the conversion well enough.

S.B. · « **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:39:00 PM »

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/superfluous

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2009, 05:40:19 PM »

Quote from: S.B. on January 12, 2009, 12:14:36 PM

EsoxLucius, I've seen in your posts the word superfluous used before, so, I looked it up and the first meaning in my dictionary is "Too Much", how can it be too much when many in the hunting world use calibers such as (your example) .458 Winchester African Magnums? The .457 was designed and chambered in Alaska, where brown bears are common and present all over, especially near running water. What's your reasoning for calling this cartridge superfluous?
Steve

Jackfish is quite capable of answering for himself, and would undoubtedly do a better job than I. Nevertheless, I share his indifferent opinion of the .457 WWM.

The WWG web site shows a power comparison which includes a .457 pushing a 350g bullet to 2200fps for 3760fpe. Whoopee. Buffalo Bore sells a 350g load running 2150fps for 3592fpe. I’ve had my .45-70 350g, 2183fps/3703fpe North Fork loads pressure tested and they came in between Buffalo Bore and the old PMC loads in terms of pressure. Frankly, if Buffalo Bore’s 3592fpe isn’t up to the task I wouldn’t want to bet my life on a .457 WWM’s 3760fpe.

The .457 WWM has a “cool” factor, if you’re into that sort of thing, but I prefer using inexpensive and readily available standard .45-70 brass. Giving up a few fps is of no concern to me with this cartridge and in fact I shoot mostly low-power loads except for hunting purposes. My 350g North Fork loads were more than adequate for a buck mule deer at 197 lasered yards and a 6x6 bull elk at 213 yards. Can’t imagine a .457 WWM would have added anything to the party except more recoil and a lot of additional expense.

Don’t know that a 350g would be my choice in Big Bear country. Might go with my “Rhino Blaster” 460g hardcast loads at 1812fps. They only run 3280fpe but they penetrate like there is no tomorrow. Again, if they won’t do the job, the extra edge provided by the .457 WWM is so thin that I wouldn’t want to bet my life on it.

S.B. · « **Reply #18 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:07:06 PM »

Wait a moment, I never questioned the differences between the 45/70 and the Wild West Guns .457 just his adjective used to describe this caliber and once or twice tried to interject some humor into the discussion? This like so many other threads here on Graybeards has gone south.
Steve

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2009, 03:39:25 AM »

Quote from: S.B. on January 12, 2009, 06:07:06 PM

Wait a moment, I never questioned the differences between the 45/70 and the Wild West Guns .457 just his adjective used to describe this caliber and once or twice tried to interject some humor into the discussion? This like so many other threads here on Graybeards has gone south.
Steve

If you ask a question, don't complain if you get an answer. When you questioned the use of the word “superfluous” to describe the .457 WWM you invited comparison to the .45-70 Gov’t as a means of answering the question.

Some of the common meanings for "superfluous" include "pointless", “unnecessary" and “redundant”. I simply answered your question with my reasons why I think the .457 WWM offers little advantage in the real world – in other words, why I think it meets the criteria for “superfluous”. It doesn’t matter to me if others feel differently but I choose not to spend my money for so little advantage. If one really wants a step up from a well-loaded .45-70, then WWG’s .50 Alaskan is a better choice. As is a .458 Win Mag.

That is my opinion and you are welcome to a different one.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #20 on:** January 13, 2009, 03:43:23 AM »

Quote from: S.B. on January 12, 2009, 12:14:36 PM

EsoxLucius, I've seen in your posts the word superfluous used before, so, I looked it up and the first meaning in my dictionary is "Too Much", how can it be too much when many in the hunting world use calibers such as (your example) .458 Winchester African Magnums? The .457 was designed and chambered in Alaska, where brown bears are common and present all over, especially near running water. What's your reasoning for calling this cartridge superfluous?
Steve

Didn't you read my previous post? The reasoning is all there.

Another meaning of superfluous is unnecessary or uncalled for.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #21 on:** January 13, 2009, 03:52:34 AM »

quickdtoo, I think the recoil generated by the 458 WM would be the undoing of a BLR. The BLR is offered in the 325 WSM. However, there is quite a bit of difference between a rifle pushing a 200 grain bullet generating 3900 fpe at the muzzle and one pushing a 500 grain bullet generating 5000 fpe; like more than twice the recoil energy.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2009, 05:54:23 AM »

I agree there, I think it would be the undoing of a lot of shooters too after just one shot!!

Tim

S.B. · « **Reply #23 on:** January 22, 2009, 06:23:31 PM »

Quote from: efremtags on January 12, 2009, 01:04:26 PM

There is little practical gain that a 457 will gain over the 45/70 as mentioned allowing for longer OAL. While the 45/70 can be shot from a 457 chamber, it is similar to shooting 38 in a 357, you can't interchange without thourough cleaning between chamberings of the 2 rounds. The crud ring the shorter round will create will effect chambering of the longer round.

457 brass is only made by 1 vendor with the correct hea stamp, and is much more expensive than good 45/70 brass. There is only 1 loaded ammo manuf I am aware of.

There is a lot of hype around some of these rounds. I have and love my 45/70, but have no illusions that it is the overwhelming behemoth that many tout it to be.

458WM was touted by many as marginal stopper in Africa, thus creation of 458lott and similar rounds. I am not sure how a cartridge designed for 2/3 the pressure and case capacity can match the 458, let alone claim power factor of these rounds. If you need a stopper, you need to drive 500gr 215oFPS (NE standard).

Superfluous as an adjective means serving no useful purpose, which describes the conversion well enough.

Don't we still have personal choice in America? Shouldn't a hunter be able to choose any caliber he wants? Even a .375 H&H for squirrel?

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #24 on:** January 24, 2009, 06:45:23 AM »

Yeah, Americans have a choice to be stupid and spend their money on things that aren't worth it. Go ahead and get one if you think its so great. But I think there is enough evidence to show it ain't worth much.

deernhog · « **Reply #25 on:** January 24, 2009, 11:32:08 AM »

SB what experience do you have with either of the rounds on any game at anytime. I have reloaded the 45-70 and hunted with mine at many different levels. The difference the .457 would have over the Buff bore or others loaded to the upper limits even at the upper limit prices would not be justified in buying and feeding the .457 to me.

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #26 on:** February 02, 2009, 06:52:16 PM »

SB, you would do yourself well not to indulge Jack and Coyote. Dont feed the.....

S.B. · « **Reply #27 on:** February 03, 2009, 03:33:23 AM »

Seems like my critics have left the topic of this post and decided to pile on me instead? No problem, I can handle it. Just makes me wonder if someone at GBO doesn't instigate this?
Steve

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #28 on:** February 03, 2009, 02:22:58 PM »

Quote from: S.B. on February 03, 2009, 03:33:23 AM

Seems like my critics have left the topic of this post and decided to pile on me instead? No problem, I can handle it. Just makes me wonder if someone at GBO doesn't instigate this?
Steve

As I said before...

Quote

If you ask a question, don't complain if you get an answer. When you questioned the use of the word “superfluous” to describe the .457 WWM you invited comparison to the .45-70 Gov’t as a means of answering the question.

Keith L · « **Reply #29 on:** February 03, 2009, 03:00:25 PM »

OK guys. I think we beat the hair off of this one. Lets find something else to talk about. It is starting to get personal and I will have to lock the topic if this continues.