Author Topic: A small "Do-All" rifle, (but not a scout)? (Read 3433 times)

mannyrock · « **on:** January 07, 2009, 05:57:54 AM »

Dear Guys,

I would like to get a small bolt action rifle, that would be a "Do-All" gun, and allow me to do the following things:

1. Informal target shooting to 100 yards.

2. Varmint rifle to 150 yards (groundhogs and up).

3. Plinking rifle, cans etc, to 100 yards.

4. Self-defense, shtf rifle, in a pinch, to 200 yards. (So, it must be a repeater, with detachable magazine.)

5. Large game (up to and including deer) in a pinch, to 100 yards.

6. Walk around, knock about rifle, just for fun.

Now, let me say that I do not expect this rifle to be excellent for any of the above duties, but hopefully very good, or good enough plus. In addition, I don't like the forward-scope-mounted scout-rifle configeration, so that is off the table for me.

The best thing I can think of is a CZ 527 Varmint rifle, in .223, with synthetic stock, and with the barrel cut and crowned to 20 inches. I would mount a leupold compact 2x6 scope. Some doubt factors I have are:

1. Can you buy replacement parts for this rifle, or is CZ down the tubes and basically liquidating? (I would just want a replacement firing pin, extractor, and several magazines.)

2. Will the CZ in .223 be OK with using the military round (5.56)? Or is there a high pressure problem?

3. I have considered a CZ in 7.62, but I'm not sure that they make it in a varmint rifle, and I'm not sure that this wouldn't just basically duplicate the capabilities of a good lever action 30-30.

Thanks for any thoughts, or alternatives.

Best Regards,

Mannyrock

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2009, 06:21:38 AM »

Don't over look the Remington Model Seven. It comes with a 20" barrel already and is usually quite accurate. It can be had in both .223 and .243 the two most likely candidates for the duty you plan for it. The Predator model can usually be had for between $625-$650 is full camo and the ones I have are very accurate right out of the box. I have them in .17 Fireball and .223. I can't think of a more appropriate choice for what you are looking for.

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #2 on:** January 07, 2009, 10:10:21 AM »

Sounds like you need a Model 7 like Greybeard said. Onliest thing is they ain't mag. fed. If a 223 is what you're looking for, you may even look about a Rem 799. They come in 223 and are "mini Mausers". Ruger makes a compact that is nice looking too.

HWD

sachel.45 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 07, 2009, 10:21:24 AM »

why not get the cz 527 carbine in .223?
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=15
it all ready comes with a short barrel you can add a syntheic stock. i dont know about the 5.56 but i would think not

Bart Solo · « **Reply #4 on:** January 07, 2009, 10:46:03 AM »

A .223 will do everything you require but hunt deer (in many states.) The 243 is probably a better choice. Actually the 6 mm Remington is better than the 243 but they are hard to come by. That said the old Remington 788 in 6 MM fills your needs to the tee.

UPDATE: What about a Tikka t3 lite stainless in either 223 or 243.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #5 on:** January 07, 2009, 10:58:33 AM »

Quote from: mannyrock on January 07, 2009, 05:57:54 AM

a small bolt action rifle, that would be a "Do-All" gun, and allow me to do the following things:

1. Informal target shooting to 100 yards.
2. Varmint rifle to 150 yards (groundhogs and up).
3. Plinking rifle, cans etc, to 100 yards.
4. Self-defense, shtf rifle, in a pinch, to 200 yards. (So, it must be a repeater, with detachable magazine.)
5. Large game (up to and including deer) in a pinch, to 100 yards.
6. Walk around, knock about rifle, just for fun.

If it weren't for the "small bolt action rifle" I'd say get an SKS... And if it weren't for the "it must be a repeater, with detachable magazine." I'd say get a M7 or an old Mark X Mini Mauser in 7.62x39.... $:-\$

But them 2 clauses are darn near mutually exclusive...

Get one of the Indian SMLE's in 7.62 and chop it up <shudder> to your liking... I think that's been done commercially before. $:-\$ You might might find one already reduced to carbine size.

charles p · « **Reply #6 on:** January 07, 2009, 11:03:36 AM »

You should buy about three rifles. A deer rifle, a varmint rifle, and a self defense rifle should cover your needs.

Tunaman · « **Reply #7 on:** January 07, 2009, 11:09:30 AM »

If it were not for the bolt requirement, I would say get an AR. With all of your requirements, however, I think that the CZ is about the most sensable choice but a Savage 25 or predator model would be good candidates as well.

I have s few rifles with detachable mags and I have to say that I am not a big fan. When given a choice, I will always choose a bolt gun with a fixed mag. That way I cant loose the mag or forget it some where etc. In a shtf situation, I would certainly grab a rifle with a fixed mag because they are mighty hard to load without the mag. Just my 2 cents.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #8 on:** January 07, 2009, 12:59:48 PM »

What about the Remington Pump in 223? Do not know the remington site address but am sure GB or one of the other guys here will be able to give it off the top of their head. Every time I do W3. remington.com I end up looking at electric shavers.
They make two models and both take AR Mags. Big mags for plinking and ranch, Slide action gives quick repeats and it a pretty accurate rifle.
Personally I like the CZ. But wanted to chime in with other options that have a detachable mag.
Also I am not a big fan of 223 for deer. have seen it done by guys that shoot a lot of deer and know where to stick the round. Heck they will use 22 Hornet. That could also be an option.
Ruger 77/22 H in 22 Hornet. Box of 50 46 grain JHP winchester rounds were about $40 bucks last box i bought for mine. Has a 6 round detachable mag. Light little rifle. I use mine for Javilina and down out to 200 yards. The Hornady 35 grain bullets make a mess of small game. www.ruger.com

targshooter · « **Reply #9 on:** January 07, 2009, 02:08:28 PM »

The detachable magazine points to two good bolt action rifles:
1] Browning A-bolt
2] CZ 550
If you could forego the detachable magazine, the Remington Model 7 in .260 Rem would be a great choice IMO. The youth version comes with BUIS.

squirrellluck · « **Reply #10 on:** January 07, 2009, 03:04:16 PM »

Brazilian Mauser, 7mm I think you can still find detachable mags for them. sporterize the stock and scope it. Makes a dandy knockabout. I love mine!

no guns here · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2009, 02:32:37 AM »

I'd be careful of the CZ in .223. If I remember correctly the twist rate is 1-12". Not an optimal twist rate for anything over a 55 grain bullet. I would love the CZ but have backed off of that in .223. I know they are really accurate but I'm sort of worried about the heavier bullets...

ngh

Graybeard · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2009, 03:43:27 AM »

http://www.Remington.com/

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2009, 01:57:27 PM »

If I were going by your list specifications, I would pick the CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62x39. I have one and it fills the bill for all you want. Light weight, magazine fed, enough power, light bullets for varmints, heavier for large game, cheap ammo for plinking. If it ever hits the fan, this is the one that I'll grab. The only down side is it's ungainly magazine. They should have just used a blind box magazine like everybody else.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2009, 05:04:10 PM »

m7 remington in 260 remington [or 308win /7.62 nato] in stainless SHTF may last during bad weather

forget the clip extra bullets are in your revolver
clips are for those that don't know enough to carry a revolver

mannyrock · « **Reply #15 on:** January 09, 2009, 07:42:30 AM »

Dear Guys,

Thanks for all of the great responses and ideas. Although the duties for the all-around rifle are simple and obvious, the range of suggestions I received is fascinating, running the gammet from an out of the box Remington Model 7 in .223, to a cut-down Ishapore Enfield in .308.

Given all of the parameters and research, I think the only rifles that seem to closely fit the bill are:

1. The Tikka T3, stainless, lightweight, in .223, but will need to cut the barrel back to 20 inches. A big advantage with this rifle is that you can obtain 6 round factory magazines for the rifle. (An unknown is whether the rifle will safely handle the 5.56 Nato, which would be your best supply of cheap and available ammo in any shtf situation.)

2. The CZ 527 rifle, in .223, but will need to cut back the barrel to 20 inches. (I know it comes in an 18" carbine, but I simply can't accurately shoot any rifle that is that short. They are butt-heavy, and bob all over the place, and don't "point". Another advantages of the CZ, is that it comes with 5 round detachable magazines in .223. (Again, an unknown is whether this rifle can handle the pressure of the 5.56 Nato. Both the Tikka T3 and the CZ 527 are "small rifles" when sold in the .223 caliber. I don't think they have the normal large receivers and stout barrels that you find on their .30-06 and magnums rifles.)

3. Runners up are: A good stout Remington 788 in .223 (again, cutting the barrel back). These rifles are built like tanks so I feel confident that they could handle the pressure of the 5.56 Nato. BUT, I believe that the magazines only hold 3 or 4 rounds, which is just not worth it. (For me, the whole point of a detachable mag is to be able to quickly load at least 5 rounds.)

I also like the idea of the CZ 527 in 7.62 russian, but again, the magazine only holds 4 rounds, so whats the point.

On paper, the new 7615 Remington Pump, with 10 round detachable mag, in .223, looks good. (As a matter of fact, some of them have 5.56mm stamped on the barrrels.) BUT, all reports are that these will short-stroke jam unless you really slam the slide back and forth with each and every shot, and I KNOW that I am prone to short-stroking, and that it is really easy for anyone to accidentally short-stroke a rifle when shooting from the prone position (which would be the most likely position in a shtf situation). Yes, these are very good rifles, but won't work for me.

Or, maybe I should just roll over, and give up, and find one of those new improved 1.5" moa Ruger Mini-14s in .223 that everyone is talking about, and buy several 10 round mags?

Thanks,

Mannyrock

sachel.45 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 09, 2009, 08:13:22 AM »

if you throw in the mini 14 you might as well just get an AR solves all of your problems

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #17 on:** January 09, 2009, 08:49:38 AM »

CZ does make a 527FS that has a 20". If the crud does hit the air curculator, it may not be a bad idea to have a back up set of sights. Flopping down into prone and rolling after the shot could damage a scope. With all the CZ's stocks can be easily swaped out for the American stock.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #18 on:** January 09, 2009, 09:43:29 AM »

Yes CZs can handle the 5.56 And I love mine. I have the varmit HS stocked version and it shoots 69 grain bullets great you can use the 75s but they won't fit in the mag so you have to single load them. BTW only the composit stock version has the 1-9 twist all the others are 1-12.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #19 on:** January 09, 2009, 03:43:32 PM »

the tikka is a long action....that bugs me with short rounds i like my 25-06 tho

has any one shot the new little savage in 223 and is it available in stainless

jimster · « **Reply #20 on:** January 09, 2009, 05:04:14 PM »

Since your mostly staying at 200 yrds max, and doing a lot of shooting at 100 yrds, you might even want a lower power scope and more compact, possibly detachable and have some open sights like a ghost ring or something to give you even more options with that short rifle. Just a thought.

Jim

charles p · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2009, 05:16:22 PM »

Remington Mod Seven, 7mm-08 caliber, plastic stock, Leupold 3X9 scope, Uncle Mike sling, Rem CoreLokt ammo in 140 Grain.

This configuration will handle most everything but rattlesnakes and grizzley bears. "I didn't call your mother-in-law a grizzley bear...."

ratherbefishin · « **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2009, 12:26:01 PM »

swede 6.5x55-it'll do everything you asked for-small and accurate enough for varminting-big enough for deer.I'd hesitate using a 223 for deer,note I said ''hesitate'' not ''wouldn't''-even a regular 22 lr is quite capable of killing a deer ''if'' you hit it right,but the swede will do the job without a lot of ''if''s.I also think they are about the best value on the market too[see my post under SWEDE's-TOUGH TO BEAT]For years I carried a nice Ruger #1 on nice days-for rainy days I left the Ruger in the gun cabinet and carried my swede-and shot most of my game.Eventually,I sold the Ruger,and picked up another swede in 9,3x57[well, 3 of them actually]

mannyrock · « **Reply #23 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:04:08 AM »

Dear Guys,

Thanks for all of the caliber suggestions. I have hunted with bothe the 7mm-08 and the 6.5 Swede, and I think they are probably the two most under-rated cartridges in America.

However, for me, they don't fit the do-all duties, as they are just too much gun for informal plinking, informal target shootings, etc., and the ammo is on the steep side, and lots of times, is not easy to find. And, call me crazy, I hate to handload. :-)

So, for me, I think the way things shake out, the .223 Remington or the .243 Winchester would end up being the best rounds. (The .22 Hornet is also tempting, but just not enough oomph.)

Also, don't laugh, but as for cartridges, the .357 Magnum also comes pretty close to fitting the bill. Coming out of a rifle, it has a good amount of steam out to 150 yards, is very accurate, and has plenty of power to kill a deer in a pinch out to 100 yards. Yea, it has a rainbow trajectory, but sighted in 4 inches high at 100 yards, it is pretty close to dead on at 150 yards. It is also cheap and plentiful. Problem is: It doesn't come in a bolt rifle, and the only viable option is a Marlin 1894 lever action. Nobody makes a drop in sythetic stock for the 1894, so you are left with some fairly fragile wood.

Thanks,

Mannyrock

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #24 on:** January 14, 2009, 06:12:57 AM »

You can always put hairy mat fiberglass over the wood stock and then add what ever paint you want.
with epoxy instead of polyester resin the stock would be a tank.

ratherbefishin · « **Reply #25 on:** January 14, 2009, 06:37:26 AM »

so-is the 6.5x55 swede not as popular in the US as it is in Canada?Ammunition is readily available over the counter here.I guess thats just one of the diferences between the two countries,just as the 303 is to Canada the 30 06 is to the US

JimFromTN · « **Reply #26 on:** January 14, 2009, 06:42:31 AM »

How about a mosin nagant m44 carbine? They are cheap and you can beat them to death. Keep a can or 2 of military ball around for plinking and a box or 2 of soft points for hunting and protection. It does not have the detachable mags but you can use stripper clips which would be faster loading than a civilian sporter with a detachable mag.

jmayton · « **Reply #27 on:** January 14, 2009, 06:47:33 AM »

I think I'll take one of everything that was mentioned. I like shooting all my rifles...bolt, break, semi-auto. All will kill varmints, medium game, and people if necessary....but if I was forced to have one, and only one, it'd be my AR. It's as accurate, more versatile, shorter, lighter, and more capable than anything else I own. I know, it's not a bolt, and it's only a .223, but with the right bullet, I wouldn't hesitate to take a deer with it inside 200yds. Plus, with the stock collapsed, it'll almost fit in a backpack.

mannyrock · « **Reply #28 on:** January 14, 2009, 12:01:23 PM »

Plinking and informal target shooting with an M44??? Man, you must be made of steel!!! That thing's got the power of a .30-06, hammering straight back with a straight stock and steel buttplate! I'm sure my girlfriend's nose and ears would be bleeding from the concusion after the 3rd shot. :-) (I would be too smart to try it myself!) No. I only weigh 150 pounds. I'll pass on the M44.

Yes, I agree that there is a very strong argument to be made for the AR, but I can't shoot without a good scope, and the only decent way to mount a scope on an AR is to have an A3 flat-top with picatinny rails and THAT type of AR now costs what? $1,200 or more?

(Gag, cough, sputter . . . .) I use to be rich, but not any more. :-)

Thanks for the ideas and fun though.

Regards, Mannyrock

jmayton · « **Reply #29 on:** January 14, 2009, 12:07:31 PM »

I've seen good M4 type AR's for under $1000. Me and a friend were at Cabela's and they had a Sabre (very nice) for $750. My Colt came to me used and it was $900. So they're out there, you just have to look. Here's mine with it's new Millett DMS 1-4X.

I also have a M44 Nagant that I love to shoot. I put a slip on recoil pad on it...but I still lovingly refer to it as "The Russian Hammer."