Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!

[Evil Dog]

On one of the other boards somebody mentioned that a toilet paper tube just happened to be the right at golfball bore size.  Tried one in my half scale Napoleon and sure enough it just fits !!!  Since I am lathe turning wood sabots for my solid shot rounds it wouldn't be all that much trouble to cut a "step" in one end of the sabot to just fit inside the toilet paper tube.  Fifty five .440" round ball weigh right at a pound and should make for a rather respectable cannister round.  I'm really interested to see what they will do at say 50 and 75 yards.  Would probably cut a styrofoam plug for the muzzle end of the tube and possible 3 or 4 lengthwise slots to make it a giant shot cup.

Hmm... how about a pound of #7 1/2 shot for use at the local trap range?  PULL !!!

[navygunner]

MMMMMMMMMMM!!!! Now that is Evil  Post pics of the results

geo

[Terry C.]

Years ago I shot some experimental 'grapeshot' rounds out of my ¼-scale Napoleon.

Twelve .490 round balls roughly duplicate the weight of a single 1.125" lead ball.

They were stacked in four layers of three, and wrapped with two layers of heavy duty aluminum foil with a wad between the powder packet and the payload.

The results were spectacular in effect at close range, but I believe I would've gotten better long range patterning if I'd been more meticulous in the construction.

The diameter of the stand was too small, it was loose in the bore. If I'd used bigger balls, the payload would've been too heavy.

I've always wanted to construct a proper stand of grape, with a center rod and plates that fit the bore, but I just haven't gotten around to it.


Maybe we should have a group project? All based on commonly used period ammo of course, nothing modern, exotic, or hazardous.

Hmm... how about a pound of #7 1/2 shot

BBs would be more realistic. ¼" ball bearings (wrist-rocket ammo) would be even closer to scale.

[Artilleryman]

Evil, Sounds like you are going to go through a lot of TP.  I don't think that you need to cut any slots, but it might be interesting to see if there was any difference in group size slotted and unslotted.

Terry, I have tried 12 pdr grape with the metal plates and the older style quilted type, and my impression is that the quilted type held a tighter group. 

[Terry C.]

The problem with mine was that the stack with four layers of three .490 balls each, was very loose in the bore. Four in a layer was too big. Upon firing, it probably collapsed and tore the wrapping as soon as pressure built up behind it. Not having a base, just some wadded muslin, behind the stack didn't help.

It didn't jam, which is good, but it did deform the balls. I recovered a couple and they were dinged up pretty bad, too much to have been from impact with a water-filled gallon jug. These were commercial soft lead balls, now I have a mold and could cast WW balls for grapeshot.

At about 15 yards, I think over half the balls missed the jug. But the few that did connect made a mess of it! Back then I was using FFg and much stiffer (borderline insane) powder charges with projectiles.

I need something that will support the balls until they pass down the barrel. Either plates (I would probably use plywood, not metal) or a proper quilted stand with a base.

If quilted, what would you suggest for covering?

[Artilleryman]

I believe the only real function of the covering, wire or cord, and center peg is to hold the balls in place so that it can be easily run down the bore.    The bottom plate gives a more efficient push from the powder charge.  So for GB size I guess any sturdy, light weight cloth would probably work well. 

I think that the switch to metal plates and rings was done to make the rounds last longer in storage or in handling.  It should be noted that for land use grape shot was considered obsolete by the time of the Civil War and was replaced by canister.  Having shot both from a 12pdr I agree with that assessment.   Having said that I made up an eight inch stand of grape that consists of metal plates and rings along with nine 6 pdr balls (no gun to shoot it from) and believe that it would be very effective in a close range broadside against a wooden ship.

[Terry C.]

So for GB size I guess any sturdy, light weight cloth would probably work well.

Mine would be less than GB, actual bore diameter is 1.156". Maximum payload diameter would be 1.127".

Total weight of nine balls, wheelweight alloy, is approx. 2052 grains. Depending on the weight of the spindle/base and cloth, I may need to back down to nine balls (1539 grains WW). A pure lead round ball at minimum windage weighs 2156 grains.

Some of the images of grapeshot I've found on the web had nine balls in three layers, most had more.

[Rickk]

I shot on a gun crew at an AAA shoot two years ago. One of the events was a grapeshot around at 50 yards. Our crew won. The entire pattern was only about a foot in diameter at 50 yards.

The gun typically used lead tipped, concrete filled juice cans.

For the grapeshot load, the juice can was filled with lead balls and then poured full of molten parafin wax as a filler. The can itself was then cut on the outside with four almost full length slits, looking something like a standard shotgun wad. All the crews were using juice cans filled with shot, but he was the only one adding the wax. The other guns were lucky to get even a few holes in the 4x4' target.

The owner of the gun told us that the can opens up reliably at about 40 yards.

It might be interesting to fill the TP tube with parafin after loading.

Rick

[Artilleryman]

I would be interested in hearing about the canister results of rounds that contain a parafin wax filler. 

[Terry C.]

Didn't the originals have a sawdust filler packed in the canister with the balls?

[thelionspaw]

Yes! Saw dust.

[Artilleryman]

I make mine up with sawdust.  People have commented on the faint yellow color in the powder smoke.   My 12 pdr gets over 20 hits in an eight man infantry front at 110-120 yards out of 27 canister balls provided that there is hard flat ground in front of the infantry line.

[Terry C.]

You skip them?

[Artilleryman]

That is how they were used tactically.  The concept is that if you center the pattern too high then you miss with the rounds that go high.  If you shoot low the rounds that hit the hard flat ground bounce usually no higher than the muzzle of the gun which results in more hits.  Having said this you don't always have hard flat ground.  Even so it is still better to aim low with the chance of getting a hit that you would not get if you aim too high.  I have found that small diameter canister balls do not skip as well as the larger ones.  The small ones seem to skid along the ground.

I did this for a History Channel program that they showed in slow motion.  It was interesting to see the rounds arriving on target.  Some got there immediately, some a little later, and one arrived by itself after all the other rounds had hit.  Of course in actual time the separation from first to last round is in milliseconds.

[seacoastartillery]

      If we want to really do something unusual we take a couple canister rounds for my 4" 1797 mortar to the prairie in the springtime when there are hundreds of temporary small ponds formed by snow melt and thunderstorms.  Our canister rounds are very simple to make.  We cast 69 cal. round balls 4 times a year and dump them in a 5 gal bucket.  Just grab about 160 or 170 of these and load up an old cardboard oil can, 3.85" dia., to the top with them.  We used to dumpster dive for these cans, but now we pay 3.00 bucks each for them at collector meets!  A piece of tough, triple-wall, corregated box cardboard, circle-cut over the top keeps the balls in there during transport and loading.  We crimp the metal edge ring over the cardboard in four places.

     Fired with 5 oz. of 1Fg BP at 2 deg. elevation, the dense cloud of balls goes out to impact at 300 yards.  We try to catch the second half of one of these little ponds.  The sound is like the ripping of heavy canvas.  Water spouts of 15 to 20 feet pop up, then dark mud at the far edge makes ten foot spouts, then 5 foot spouts of cake mud and finally a few dry dust puffs.  The beaten zone is about 40 feet wide by 150 feet long.  It's one of those sights that you will never forget.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

     

[Artilleryman]

Sounds like a lot of fun.  Do the oil can collectors know what you are doing?  I make mine as described in the ordnance manuals.

[Terry C.]

The oilcan made me think of another item that bears investigation.

Cardboard/foil grease tubes.

I'll be back at work tomorrow, I'll measure the OD on a tube of grease.

     Fired with 5 oz. of 1Fg BP at 2 deg. elevation, the dense cloud of balls goes out to impact at 300 yards.

I wanted to go back and look at your mortar bed to see how you get it down as low as 2°. When I searched out the BINGO thread, where I knew you had posted photos of your mortar and bed, almost all of the pictures were gone. 


I cast up a few wheelweight .490 balls yesterday, to play around with the grapeshot stand. At ¼-scale, this is the equivalent of a ball 1.96" in diameter.

A little research indicates that nine balls were use in CW-era 12# grapeshot (bolted, not quilted, I haven't found any references to quilted grape being issued during the CW, although it probably was). I haven't found any reference to ball diameter.

I also found references to the standard 12# canister as using 27 balls 1.46"-1.49" in diameter. This contradicts what I previously believed, that the balls were smaller and there were a lot more of them.

More research is in order.

BTW: Where's Evil Dog? I hope I didn't chase him out of his own thread...

[thelionspaw]

I used to get carpet roll cardboard tubes when I was shipping ice spearfishing decoys. They may be a little heavier than you want and I don't know the diameter but it seems to me to be about what you may want. Carpet stores dump them. Take a look.

rc

[Rickk]

Mike and Tracy,

I can't measure one right now because my wife brought my empties back for the 5 cent deposit but a Foster's Lager can is roughly oil can sized. Yes, it also costs about $3 bucks, but easier to find and more enjoyable to empty.

I'll have to measure one next time I have one.

It might be an interesting sticky for people to post diameters of all sorts of common cylindrical containers.

Rick

[Evil Dog]

No Terry,  I haven't been chased away.  I just haven't made any more progress in the past few days.  I think that I am still inclined to use 54 or 55 of the .440" balls in the toilet paper tube.  It wouldn't be all that much of a problem to lathe down a wood sabot plug for the base of it and cut a styrofoam plug for the nose.  I'm thinking sawdust for a filler as I have plenty of that under the table saw right now.  Somebody had also mentioned using melted parafin as a filler.  That might increase the weight more than I would care to though, would prefer to keep it right at 1 pound for the projectile weight.  It is going to be another week or so before I can get back to this project though.  This coming weekend I will be taking part in a live fire event and have to finish up making tent poles if I plan on having a tent to sleep in.

[Artilleryman]

A little research indicates that nine balls were use in CW-era 12# grapeshot (bolted, not quilted, I haven't found any references to quilted grape being issued during the CW, although it probably was). I haven't found any reference to ball diameter.

By the time of the Civil War grape shot was considered obsolete for field artillery.  Canister was considered more effective.  I would imagine that any grapeshot that was in storage was probably used early in the war. 

[Double D]

Mike and Tracy,

It might be an interesting sticky for people to post diameters of all sorts of common cylindrical containers.

Rick

No more sticky's, besides if you look you will find that information in CW's references sticky.  Post the dimensions here and he will add them to the post.

[KABAR2]

      If we want to really do something unusual we take a couple canister rounds for my 4" 1797 mortar to the prairie in the springtime when there are hundreds of temporary small ponds formed by snow melt and thunderstorms.  Our canister rounds are very simple to make.  We cast 69 cal. round balls 4 times a year and dump them in a 5 gal bucket.  Just grab about 160 or 170 of these and load up an old cardboard oil can, 3.85" dia., to the top with them.  We used to dumpster dive for these cans, but now we pay 3.00 bucks each for them at collector meets!  A piece of tough, triple-wall, corregated box cardboard, circle-cut over the top keeps the balls in there during transport and loading.  We crimp the metal edge ring over the cardboard in four places.

     Fired with 5 oz. of 1Fg BP at 2 deg. elevation, the dense cloud of balls goes out to impact at 300 yards.  We try to catch the second half of one of these little ponds.  The sound is like the ripping of heavy canvas.  Water spouts of 15 to 20 feet pop up, then dark mud at the far edge makes ten foot spouts, then 5 foot spouts of cake mud and finally a few dry dust puffs.  The beaten zone is about 40 feet wide by 150 feet long.  It's one of those sights that you will never forget.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

     

T&M

 Have you ever considered making a gun carriage for your mortar tube? during the American Revolution when the colonials were short on howitzers they would sometimes mount a mortar tube
in a crude gun carriage making a moritzer  might be an interesting experiment to see what kind of range you would get with it.

Allen <>< 

[seacoastartillery]

     Terry, Allen, Rick  we just dig a hole for the front of the mortar bed and pile the dirt in the back.  Works great!  Will have to get some of that Aussie beer to test it out, I mean the can, for cannister, of course.  As for the range of that mortar, I wouldn't want to admit that I ever overloaded it, but I hear tell that they could get almost a mile with that size, but why bother?  You would have no accuracy what-so-ever at that range!  No more building projects, Allen, until next year at least.  Artilleryman, at two shots every five years or so, I don't think we are reducing the oil can collections too much.  If we had a beautiful full scale 12 pdr. like you have, we would load our cannister rounds exactly according to 19th century specs.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

[Terry C.]

This coming weekend I will be taking part in a live fire event and have to finish up making tent poles if I plan on having a tent to sleep in.

What is this "sleep" of which you speak? 

 

[Artilleryman]

Here are two websites that sell mailing tubes that might work for some of the cannons mentioned here.  Unfortunately these sites only carry sizes in 1/2" increments from 1 1/2 inches.


http://www.packagingprice.com/forms/product_listing.cfm?CategoryID=10090&desc=Mailing+Tubes+With+End+Caps

http://www.papermart.com/templates/08-0-10.htm

[Terry C.]

On a hunch, I checked Skylighter.

They sell cardboard fireworks tubes 7" long x 1.69" OD. But they're about a buck and a quarter each and they only sell them in bundles of 50.

At 3/32" thick, it's probably too heavy for GB canister, anyway.

[Evil Dog]

Guess maybe I will have to be a little more liberal with the TP.... need more tubes.

[Artilleryman]

Another thought is to custom make your own tubes.  It's more work, but at least you would have exactly the size that you wanted.   

[jeeper1]

Less work than making your own tubes is building up the OD of smaller tubes. I do that frequently when preparing pyro rounds for my 37mm launchers.