Golfball bore cannister rounds !!!

[Evil Dog]

TP tubes are already the right outside diameter for my particular cannon, it's just a question of length.  Will have a better idea when I actually make up the first round.

[Rickk]

A 25.4 ounce can of Foster's  is 3.30 diameter by about 6" long, and good to the last drop. 

Rick

[Terry C.]

I checked the grease tubes. The tube averages about 2.1" in diameter.

Too big for a GB bore, too small for a 2¼".

[Evil Dog]

Dropped fifty-five .440" round balls into a TP tube... filled it up just about half way.  I was hoping to maybe get 2 rounds out of each tube but it doesn't look like it is going to work out that way.  Still have to fit a sabot to the back end plus a styrofoam plug to the front.  No way to get 2 rounds out of each tube after that.

[Victor3]

I would be interested in hearing about the canister results of rounds that contain a parafin wax filler. 

 A friend of mine (CW reenactor, now passed away) had some he made with the old small diameter aluminum Coors cans years ago. I asked him how he made them.

 He said that after much experimentation he found that using parafin mixed with as much crushed walnut shell (case polishing media) as it would hold, yet still pour seemed to work best for him. He filled the bottom 1/3 of the can with beeswax and put a cardboard disk on top of it. Then the top portion of the can was layered with balls and parafin/walnut shell slurry. He left about 1/2" of the can unfilled. After it hardened, he made 4 slits in the can from the rim to about 1/2 way down, and put a couple of wraps of masking tape about 1" from the top.

 I don't know that the walnut shell does any magic; he probably just used it instead of sawdust because he had it on hand.

[Artilleryman]

Victor what type of results did your re-enactor friend get?  I would guess that the various methods using wax would tend to keep the pattern fairly tight.  In a combat type situation probably too tight, but in modern competition where the number of hits on a relatively small target is important these wax filled rounds sound like they would do the trick.  I have wondered what the close range (under 100 yards)  pattern of double 12 pdr canister would be?   This would of course be a dangerous overload so I guess I will never know.

[seacoastartillery]

     For those of you contemplating the use of paraffin as a binder for your canister projectiles, I will convey to you an experience I had with paraffin used in this capacity and you can make up your minds as to it’s effectiveness.  I found that melted paraffin, once hardened, is a very powerful binding agent.  In fact, it is used in Military “Door Entry Shotshells” as a binder for the powdered steel which actually breaks the door-lock or hinge aimed at.  Such a mass of tightly bound steel powder will fly a long distance if not broken up by a solid object.  So, really small shot will probably not work too well, because the “inertia at rest” of such light weight shot will not be much greater than the mass of the wax binder.  Without some definite amount of differential in the ability to move forward, between the shot and the wax mass, at the moment of firing, the mass of wax-bound projectiles will fly forward as a single unit.  Not good.

     I proved in 1969 that even # 8 bird shot is too light when I was in a small cabin on a lake in Vermont doing some fishing and reloading.  I bought a 12 Ga. Lee Loader, the inexpensive, pound on it with a hammer, type.  I was too ignorant to know that ONLY paper hulls could be crimped on that equipment!  So, I wailed away on those poor plastic shotshells to no avail.  The cabin had no equipment, but did have a couple old kerosene lanterns and lots of candles for times when the power went out.  A light bulb appeared over my head…………..WAX……..drip wax into the shotshell after the #8 shot goes in, and those little pellets won't dribble out.
Dripping was way to slow, so I heated up 3 candles in an old enameled steel cup and I was in business!  50 in two hours, not bad.  When we tossed a few clay birds later that afternoon, everyone there thought I had lost my touch.  I couldn’t hit anything!!  Well, you all know what happened, and I learned when I patterned one of those loads on an old, decayed boat hull at 30 to 40 yards.  One 12 Ga. Hole and only 15 to 20,  #8 shot holes appeared.  Mystery solved!

     So, if you are sure you want to try a paraffin binder, make sure that your shot size is large enough to insure that a bit of shot set-back will occur as the canister load is fired, to partially fracture the tight wax bond around your shot.  Maybe # 4 buckshot is large enough at .24” dia., maybe 00 buck at .33” dia.  I think you will have no problem with .40 or .50 cal. and larger, but in a golf ball sized bore the temptation to get more holes in the attacking infantry may lead to smaller shot sizes being used.  Only empirical test results will tell us for sure.  Actual observations of experiments will be necessary to tell where the “Wax, Wad-of-Shot” becomes an effective, “Long Range, Tight Group, Cannister Round”.  More “Range Time” is necessary; where do we sign up??

Regards,

Mike and Tracy
 

[Artilleryman]

Seacoast your experience is what I thought might happen.  I agree with you that test results will let us know for sure. 

For me I want to duplicate what was done during the Civil War period.  This helps me understand the historical narrative better.  Several years ago I was reading where a battery commander was telling his gunners to aim low (cannister).  I didn't understand why until I fired my first cannister round at a large sand hill at a sand pit.  As soon as I saw the pattern all over the hill side I understood the reason for aiming low.  I didn't understand why they didn't use smaller shot until I tried that and found that most of the rounds slid along the ground.  That is why testing loads will let us know what happens.

[Ex 49'er]

Has anyone tried to make a beehive round in a bp cannon? Probably not worth the trouble. Probably scatter like crazy.

[Victor3]

Victor what type of results did your re-enactor friend get? 

 He said that they gave him tight patterns and that the balls/wax/walnut shell conglomerate broke apart well and separated from the can/beeswax sabot. That's about all I remember after 20 years. I don't know what range he was shooting them out to.

 I do remember that when looking at the open end, it seemed to be more walnut shell than wax; it looked like just enough wax was in the mixture to bind the stuff together. Crushed walnut shell being spongy stuff I imagine that when fired, the balls would squish to the rear, breaking up the filler somewhat in the process.

[Artilleryman]

Victor, Do I understand correctly that the sabot was only beeswax?  If that is the case I can understand the cannister coming apart. 

[Victor3]

 The aluminum can - with beeswax poured into the bottom of it - was the sabot.

[RocklockI]

 ..Yea ,yea ...and.. blah ,blah....jamm...jamarrooo "........Only empirical test results will tell us for sure.  Actual observations of experiments will be necessary to tell where the “Wax, Wad-of-Shot” becomes an effective, “Long Range, Tight Group, Cannister Round”.  More “Range Time” is necessary; where do we sign up??
Regards,

Mike and Tracy '  '


 How bout.......My house Tuesday 9:00am..   .

[Terry C.]

Actual observations of experiments will be necessary to tell where the “Wax, Wad-of-Shot” becomes an effective, “Long Range, Tight Group, Cannister Round”. 

And on that note, I should have a 5 pound box of 000 buckshot pellets within the next few days.

According to my calculations, the 000 buckshot pellet is very near ¼-scale equivalent of the shot used in the 12-pounder canister with 27 balls. They're not perfect, but they're close enough and the buckshot pellets are a lot cheaper than lead rifle balls.

As a binder/filler I plan to use paraffin and grits. We always have grits. I'll pack in as much grits as I can fit in the crevasses during assembly, and then pour in the melted wax.

I haven't found a suitable tube yet and will probably have to roll my own. I've scored the tube in the plans, I may or may not do that to the finished canister. It will depend how tough the finished tube is.

The base/sabot is a ½" thick wood plug. The plan is to use tiny wire nails to secure the plug in the tube. I have some steel ones, I want to find some in copper. If I have to use the steel ones I will probably put a wrap of tape around the base to protect the bore.

The end of the canister will be crimped over a heavy cardboard disk.




And so it begins...

[Artilleryman]

Terry what are you going to use to "roll your own"?  I was thinking maybe you could cut the ends off a soda can, cut it lengthwise, and roll it to the diameter that you need.  The metal would crimp over the end nicely. 

[Terry C.]

The aluminum cans are high on my list of possible materials.

I probably won't have the shot before this weekend, so
I'll have a little time to cut some plugs and try to form some tubes.

[Div Arty]

Terry C.    You may want to think about stepping the sabot up to the size of the tube and then nailing.

[Terry C.]

Do you mean something like this:



I originally went with the fully covered base because it would be quick and easy to make.

For this, I may need a thicker plug for the sabot. No parts have been made yet, so the design of the canister is still somewhat flexible.


I'm going to make at least six of these in the first batch (more if it goes well), so I need to have most of the kinks worked out before I get started.

By my estimate, there should be enough 000 shot in a 5 pound box box to make over 75 rounds. I hope I don't need to make quite that many.

[Artilleryman]

I put a step in mine, but I am using heavier sheetmetal.  If you don't know already the top tier of balls doesn't have a ball in the center. 

You can never have enough cannister.

[GGaskill]

If you don't know already the top tier of balls doesn't have a ball in the center. 

That's how you get 27 balls with 4 layers.

[Terry C.]

That's how you get 27 balls with 4 layers.

Yes, I figured out early on that I couldn't get a center ball in the top tier.

The outer rings of balls are staggered and nestle into each other, whereas the center balls are directly on top of each other.

It's not obvious from my drawing, but if you look closely you can see the inner column in the cutaway and how they don't line up with the outer rings of balls.

Twenty-seven 000 pellets in each load, plus grits, plus wax. That's the plan.

[seacoastartillery]

     When we went out cannon shooting yesterday, RocklockI fired a field expedient canister charge from his smooth bore, GB bore Dia. 1/3 scale Confederate Parrott.  Rounds such as these would have been made up by the defenders of a frontier fort during the French and Indian War in the 1750s and 1760s.  Mike, Gary and I were pleased with this load's performance at 75 ft., but we all realize that a better pattern could be expected from a 27 ball canister round which has been carefully made.  A few photos follow:

Regards,

Tracy and Mike


The canister round next to a solid shot round; both have carefully made sabots made of machined poplar, an authentic sabot wood.




Gary loads the canister round using Seacoast's spare safety rammer.




Canister is on the way!




     Gary wanted to use that big cow pie as an aiming point.  He asked, "How can I stick this on our target backing?"  I quipped, "How did you stick a stamp on an envelope before self-stick stamps came along?"  Oh boy did I ever get a dirty look!  Mike jabbed a few sticks through it and problem solved.  The load contained lead balls, steel shot, 9mm bullets and pieces of chain gathered from the chain cutting area at the local Home Depot. 

[Evil Dog]

Was that a clean piece of cardboard before the cannister round?  If so, there are sure a lot of holes in it now.  Hopefully I will be able to go play before too much longer.... looking to be a couple more weeks though.

[Terry C.]

The load contained lead balls, steel shot, 9mm bullets and pieces of chain gathered from the chain cutting area at the local Home Depot.

.. and a partridge in a pear treeeeeeee!


How's the weather there?


Looks warm.




Dammit.

[seacoastartillery]

     Evil Dog,   Yes, that was a clean piece of cardboard except for a cookie-cutter hole along the right edge down at 4 O'clock from the pie.  We believe that was from a previous near miss from a solid shot and was caused by it's sabot which remained whole as all of them did when the "solid shot" was a golf ball.  Those small holes were from #4 buckshot, I believe, at about .24 cal. each. 

     Terry,  live animals are not used by us in any way and, like I said elsewhere, "Bird Shot" is too light to be used effectively!!   About the weather, it's so nice here, that it honestly defies description.  60 deg. F. with a light breeze of 3 to 5 mph.  It's the kind of weather that people who live in Cut Bank, Montana can only dream about!  Today it was even nicer at 65 deg. and 5 to 7 mph!  Thank you so much for those excellent diagrams of canister rounds properly made.  First class job!  We hope to make a few like that soon.  Mike and I will make a few for Gary to try out.  We are thinking about a steel can, cut and re-rolled to a smaller dia., like 1.650", with a thickness of the re-soldered can right at .056".  We will allow .044" windage and .030" clearance among the balls in a 27 ball canister load.  This leaves .540" for each ball, (1.620" dia.) divided by 3 (no. of balls in a row across the can)= .540".  Gee, what size rifle round ball is commonly available near this size?  .54 Caliber RBs are available almost everywhere!  We will slot the can in four places so it opens like a plastic shot shell wad.Glad we know someone with a nice Dominic-made smoothbore cannon!

T&M

[RocklockI]

While walking thru the hardware store a few days ago looking for inexpensive "shot" I saw the tray of bits and pieces of chain clippings . 5-10 lb for nothing  . They looked at me a little odd .

That canister load was made up chain bits on the bottom about 1/4 full ,w/ assorted old RBs up to .75 cal.

mostly #4 buck and fired .36 ,50 & 54 balls . The charge was 400 2F,  the shot pattern in the dirt beyond the target was impressive . a .75 took off the lower left edge of "Patty" all other holes came from the same shot .

This wax filled canister idea that may stick together reminds me of a story an Iraq shotgunner told me.
They would cut the hull of a Bird load just below the shot cup so that it would be held together by a few tiny pieces of plastic it had to be placed in the chamber singly .

Followed by more conventionl rds .

Upon firing the entire front of the shell goes down range as a solid untill it hits something exploding in all directions .

Gary

[Terry C.]

After a couple of failed experiments, I figured out a way to get a piece of soda can formed into a canister tube.

Now that I have the process and the tooling, it shouldn't be too hard to make up a few more.



The piece is cut oversized, then wrapped around the wood mandrel and trimmed to overlap about ¼". Then, using the mandrel and copper pipe coupling, the ends are squared up (still well over the finished length) and cuts are made about ¼" into what would be the crimped end. I eyeballed them and didn't count them until I was finished. I ended up with ten cuts in this one.

Then the mandrel and copper cap are used to roll the crimp onto the tube. I originally tried to crimp a tube without the cuts, but couldn't make that work.



The coupling is about the right length for a finished tube with a little left to trim, so it was used once again to cut the tube to length.

Exact finished length will be determined after filling.



These are the same copper couplings I use for ball gauges, So a canister constructed using this as an outer form is guaranteed to fit the bore.



For now I just have this cinched with some cellophane tape. The seam of the tube will be glued and a disk (probably cardboard) will be glued into the end.

Now to repeat this a dozen or so times, after I collect some cans. We drink very little soda and I had to dig through the garbage just to find a couple of empties. Most of what I found, I wasted in the learning process.

The buckshot will be delivered on Tuesday.



Next, I need some wood plugs for sabots...

[Terry C.]

I'm going to be experimenting with fillers.

I plan to make some with just grits (to simulate sawdust), and others with the grits/paraffin mix. And I may try some other fillers and/or binders as well.

I may even construct some "9-ball" rounds (roughly equivalent to grapeshot) using my .490 cast balls, and some "turketshoot" rounds using standard BBs.

But these will be secondary to the testing of the scaled-down standard 12-pounder canister, using twenty-seven 000 buckshot pellets, with and without the paraffin binder.

[Artilleryman]

Terry, Very innovative way of making up you can for the cannister round.  Thanks for sharing.

[Terry C.]

Thanks.

These will be filled from the rear, the front end will already be sealed, and then the base/sabot attached.

Once I have the pellets, I can stack them into a tube and get a measurement for the finished length. For now I'm making them a little longer than I'll need, I'll trim them all prior to assembly.

If I was in a REAL hurry, I have some 3" 12ga 000 in my ammo stash. But I really don't want to cut up a bunch of expensive new buckshot (I'd need three shells to make one canister). Whenever I've cut up shells before, they were either very old, or very cheap, or oddballs I had no use for.

I'll just wait for the box of pellets to get here.