Author Topic: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?  (Read 5841 times)

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Offline teddy12b

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What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« on: January 09, 2009, 09:40:43 AM »
Assuming that another ban is on the way and that we can no longer buy any semi-auto rifles, what would be your next choice for your self defense gun?  A bolt action, pump, or a lever gun?  Something else?

I'm just trying to think further down the road, because if a guy wanted to buy another hunting rifle I'm speculating that now would be the time to buy it.  If a ban goes through on semi-auto's and they are no longer available then people will buy the next best thing, and the prices will get as rediculous as the AR-15's are right now.  I own a lever action, bolt action, and have thought about a pump rifle.  I guess I'd have to lean towards whatever has a detachable magazine, but what if that's not an option then what?

Just curious about what you all think about what's the best alternative to a semi auto rifle? 

Offline skifastchad

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 11:14:03 AM »
I already have an early remington 760 gamemaster 30-06 pump rifle, and I like it so much that I'm thinking about getting the new 7615 tactical.  Its based on the proven remington pump system, but it has a special short action for .223 and it takes AR style magazines. 

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 03:00:02 AM »
a guy could buy a browning blr in 223.
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Offline Default

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 03:11:00 AM »
I believe it is remington that is making a pump action 223 rifle that uses the AR/M-16 mags ;)
 
   worth thinking about

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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 03:25:04 AM »
I have seen 10 round mags for the Remington 760 / 7600.  Higher capacity may be available.  If detachable magazines become an issue, there is a lot to be said for a tube fed lever action with a low power scope.  8 to 10, or so rounds, accurate, powerful, very "nonthreatening" looking.  Heck, I would feel pretty well armed with an accurate, tube fed .22 Lr bolt action or lever, with a good scope.  Making a good hit is a lot better then spraying a lot of lead....

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Offline FLNT4EVR

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 03:46:42 AM »
My choice would be a pump gun.
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Offline BBF

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2009, 06:41:50 AM »
I don't think pumps were ever used by the military however they are used by LEO's so they could be banned . Oh well, right now the new team is going to have their hands full with the economy and there is no way this is going to get fixed in a long while. Get ready for the southern border to be opened all the way.
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Offline Totenkopf

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2009, 09:43:32 AM »
It's been a while but I went through a class on scout rifles. I was amazed with the accuracy and speed you could get out of a bolt with scout scope mount. For home defense it's hard to beat the old 12 gauge pump. Many aftermarket hop ups are available. These guys provided some good help, so I'll try not to duplicate. A standard lever marlin or winchester is still very popular in the South West.
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 03:44:03 PM »
a  single well placed shot is what  i THINK  is the answer to most problems
i  think the bolt  is the most reliable so  therefore  the best choice

just not as exciting  as daydreaming  of blazing away

i  was  thinking along those limes a few  months ago   and got a marlin XLR  in  45-70government
gave some thought and still considering  the rem pump 223  [already have a pile of clips and ammo]

i don't think it will penetrate body armor  if  the rioters ware any   but will knock it down
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

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Offline phalanx

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 05:13:45 PM »
45/70 , yes you are right ,the 45/70 in an 1886 rifle is a killer.
Body Armor is useless ,the blunt trauma is severe ,and the round is the most feared by LE.
My brother in law is Texas DPS ,and he went to a school about this stuff.
They made a point to show the damage a 300gr JHP did to a test dummy ,he said it was not good.

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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2009, 05:48:09 AM »
and  stainless  and laminated  wood  is  so  pretty

if  you  don't  like  MY  assault rifle  you  hate John Wayne

pump guns  are  like  autos....just  good for  killing  people..... every  one  knows  that
lever  guns  are  for  cowboys  and  other  wholesome people
just  designed  to  keep the  wolfs at  bay  or to euthanize  a horse  with a broke  leg
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline mannyrock

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2009, 07:10:10 AM »
    Interesting post.
   
   The Remington 7615 with detachable magazine looks good on paper.  However, if you read lots of accounts on the internet, you will find experienced folks telling you that they are easy to jam unless you really slam the slide back and forth with every shot.  In a high stress situation, plus moving, rolling, running etc., it would be very very easy to accidentally pump it without the required gusto, and end up with a jammed weapon in your hands.  It would be particularly easy to jam if you were shooting from prone, and trying to pump and fire.

  Hard to beat the Marlin 1894 lever action, in  .357 mag, with hollowpoints, for a 150 yard action gun on soft targets.  It has a 10 round capacity, top-off ability, more than 550 ft pounds at 100 yards, and still around 350 ft pounds at 200 yards. It is a very unassuming looking rifle, almost like a child's gun. and with a 2.5 power scope, ore even a ghost ring, it is amazingly quick on target.  I believe that you can get a complete synthetic stock for it, and I think it is even legal in the CITY OF NEW YORK!!!!  Think that 350 ft pounds is not enough power to hit something with at 200 yards?  Just imagine someone shooting an assailant at point blank range with a 4 inch revolver, loaded with .38P+ soft points!!     But, if you still feel undergunned with the .357 magnum, then just get a Marlin .30-30.  Holds seven rounds if you count the one in the chamber.

      Of course, levers are hard to operate from prone position too.  But, a smooth Marlin is not prone to jamming, even at a medium slow lever speed.

    As an all-around choice, it is hard to beat a short bolt action, provided it has a detachable magazine that can hold 5 or more rounds.  But, it is pretty danged hard to find one!  The closest thing currently made are:

              The Tikka T3 lightweight, in .223, for which you can get factory made 6 round magazines.  Spare magazines are about $70 though.   And, since it has only an ejection port, you can't load a round without the magazine!  (And, it is a 1/12 twist, so forget shooting decent heavy weight bullets)

               Or, an old Remington 788 bolt (with barrel shortened) in .223 (which I believe holds 5).  But, spare magazines are hard to find.  (Again, has the 1/12 twist) 

              Or, a new CZ 527 carbine, in .223, which comes with 5 round magazines.  But, I have heard that the magazine juts out of the bottom exactly at the balance point of the rifle, which makes it pretty hard/unhandy to carry with one hand.  (And, again, it has the 1/12 twist.)

               Or, get a standard Remington Model 700 BDL in .223, and then fit it with a Badger Detachable Mag system (with one 10 round mag) for the price of, gulp,  $260.  And, although spare 10 rounds Badger mags are avaliable, at a very high price, I have heard that they are always on back order and Midway and very hard to get.

     So, there you have it. Those are about all of your choices.  (You could get a 1970s era Savage 99C lever action, in .243, with a detachable mag, but spare mags are almost impossible to find.)  Or, you could get a BLR with a detachable mag, in almost any caliber (except .223?), but I think the magazines only hold 4 rounds.

       If you are going with a bolt action, then having a detachable mag that only holds 4 rounds or less seems like a big waste of time to me.   I would rather have a closed bottom rifle, that holds 5.

  Just my thoughts.  Any others?

Mannyrock




   




Offline phalanx

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2009, 03:42:08 PM »
But when you start hitting the lever action Rifles and the SAA weapons ,you finally hit a nerve with those Duck hunters who don't care if you lose your AR or not.
Then you will see some people scrambling for their rights big time.
Whats next ,Bass fishing ????  Bow hunting??? oh yes Fienstine at this moment has a Problem with Bows ,these new Assault Bows like a Matthews ?
And i believe these new troops in our military would have no problem shooting into crowds of civilians if they are ordered to.
I saw one two years ago in a gun store ,he was a Sargent straight out of Iraq ,and he went to a gun store with his brother in law.
When he saw the amount of ARs ,AKs ,and other black rifles his face went cold.
You could tell what he was thinking ,and he was silent the rest of his time on leave.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline Hairtrigger

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2009, 03:47:49 PM »
I have both a BRL in 223 and a 7615.
The 7615 is my choice...
The BLR is more accurate

Offline mannyrock

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2009, 03:56:08 PM »

    Correction by me on the ballistics of a .357 magnum round, 157 grain bullet, coming out of a Marlin 1894 lever action rifle.  It is about 1,250 ft.pounds at the muzzle,  600 ft pounds at 100 yards, and 350 at 200. yards.

Mannyrock

Offline Mikey

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2009, 02:52:27 AM »
I would opt for the lever action.  As 45-70 indicates, the lever gives people a different impression of the owner.  Black rifles are bad, lever actions are good from that perspective, so is the bolt action which is also considered a sporter.

Either the bolt or the lever is more than adequate for personal defense or hunting to fill the freezer and feed the family.  Most people do not think of a lever actionas a assault rifle but they have been used in that capability before.

Almost any caliber will do but remember those who have been elected to office will try and ban any military ammo or ammo used by military and police - this means 223, 308, 7.62x39, 9mm, 45 auto, etc.  If you have firearms in these calibers stock up on ammo now.

Levers are fast and rifle calibers hit very hard.  Understand that auto rifles with magazines may also cause you to 'rock' one way or the other to reload - same as a lever might cause you to 'rock' to rechamber.  Levers can be loaded fast, too and can spit out a lot of ammo. 

If you are dealing with 'armored' assailants, that is, those wearing some sort of body armor, most hunting rounds and lever rounds will defeat the armor.  It may not penetrate but the blunt force trauma is enough to eliminate the threat.

Most hunting rifles are good to 200m or better, most levers are good to 2-300 yds depending on how well you know your rifle, ammo and its trajectories.  You can adequately defend yourself and your home with a good scoped lever action and in that regard there is absolutely nothing wrong with the old 30-30 for that.  And the 30-30 is more than adequate for most game in the US.  JMTCW. 

Offline teddy12b

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2009, 03:09:23 AM »
I've actually been looking online for another 30-30.  A used marlin can be found pretty easily for under $200 on the online auctions. 

Offline Hairtrigger

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2009, 09:43:10 AM »
I have owned a Rem 7615 long enough to dispute the jamming arguement. I am even shooting reloads that were neck sized and first shot in my AR-15.
The 7615 is built on a Rem 20ga 870 receiver... wonder if that is where  the jamming idea came from, guys that short stroke their 870's and get a shell caught under the bolt.

Offline mannyrock

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2009, 01:35:51 PM »

  Yes Hairtrigger, nobody is saying that the Rem 7615 just jams by itself; they are just saying that it is easy to short-stroke a weapon in alot of situations, and of course, the rifle will jam on a short stroke.

Mannyrock,

Offline Ahshucks

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2009, 02:14:39 AM »
The jamming on the pump can occur just as a dirty firearm or underloaded shell can in an semiauto.  You need to train on the pump action until you don't have to think about the action anymore ... it's sitting right in your hand ... treat it hard it's not a plastic toy.
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Offline LEO

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2009, 05:04:52 PM »
The 30-30 lever action has a lot going for it.  Plenty accurate for the task at hand, light weight, fast handling, low recoil, low muzzle flash/blast, lower noise signature than a lot of centerfire rifle rounds, fast follow up shots, good stopping power, can be topped off with the rifle still in battery, and fully ambedextrious.  Ammo is very available and the rifles are fairly durable, easily maintained, and inexpensive and as has been pointed out by other posters the rifles are veiwed in a more favorable light than the AR/AK type rifles.

Offline BBF

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2009, 06:48:48 AM »
You can "short stroke" a lever as well as a bolt action.The Lever may or may not jam, but it will go "click".
I short strokes a 444  once at the outset of a morning hunt. By the time I got the lever and bolt out using a skinning knife to remove the lever screw I was at least 5 or more minutes late  to get to my position. Lady Luck does favor fools at times, I got Mr. Bullwinkle that morning because I was late. !!
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Offline targshooter

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2009, 03:19:59 AM »
The NRA American Rifleman magazine had an article concerning speed and accuracy of subsequent shots in the various rifle types. I cannot recall the exact issue, but I believe it was in the past three years or so. They found the pump action to be almost as good or equal to the semi-auto in their study IIRC. The obvious advantage of a properly functioning semi-auto system (rifle, ammo and magazines) is the minimization of the human error factor (such as short stroking).

Offline bilmac

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2009, 05:10:40 AM »
Something to consider is that legislation will probably include rifles with detachable magazines.

Offline torpedoman

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2009, 03:40:30 PM »
Full auto ,if your going to be a criminal anyway you may as well go big time.
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Offline mirage1988

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2009, 07:25:35 PM »
When they come to your door- It is way too late!  Like santa- they know when you are sleeping- they know when you are awake- shock and awe- you think the Iraqis were the first to see it? WRONG! Every PD in this country that has a SWAT team has been doing it for years! I caught another guy yesterday, tking pictures of my house, didn't have a reason. SWAT has been to the house next door twice this year. We might get the first one or two, if they are standing close enough, but WE NEED TO STOP THEM BEFORE THEY START KICKING DOORS IN!

Offline teddy12b

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2009, 02:42:38 AM »
When they come to your door- It is way too late!  Like santa- they know when you are sleeping- they know when you are awake- shock and awe- you think the Iraqis were the first to see it? WRONG! Every PD in this country that has a SWAT team has been doing it for years! I caught another guy yesterday, tking pictures of my house, didn't have a reason. SWAT has been to the house next door twice this year. We might get the first one or two, if they are standing close enough, but WE NEED TO STOP THEM BEFORE THEY START KICKING DOORS IN!

What does that have to do with asking "what's the next best alternative to a semi-auto".  I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm getting tired of reading that kind of crap.

Offline mirage1988

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2009, 05:48:27 AM »
Teddy, sorry about the rant-
If they get their way, all guns will be banned. With that said, a pump, with practice is almost as fast as a semi-auto.

Offline bilmac

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2009, 05:52:39 AM »
There are very few pumps I know of that are as nice to handle as a lever. Also you can pull the bolt on a Marlin and clean it from the correct end.

Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: What's your next best alternative to a Semi- Auto?
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2009, 07:17:33 AM »
I love my lever guns, The .30-30 and .357s will handle anything in the lower 48 just fine. But I am gonna add a Rem 7615 to my safe, I think it has a place right with my others. 

A 20 gauge 870 basically in .223 with AR mags and ability to shoot mil surp or cheap russian ammo plus any other .223/5.56  ammo you can come up with. Whats not to like. 8)
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