Author Topic: golfball mortar loading  (Read 1929 times)

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Offline barebower

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golfball mortar loading
« on: January 09, 2009, 10:06:03 PM »
Hi all,

I posted here before that i wanted to make a dahlgren seacost gun and was given some plans by someone(thanks a lot!).
As i want to build the dahlgren 20" long i had to order a deep drill for the lathe at work.
In the mean time i started on a GB mortar golfball size with a 1.715 bore size and a sub chamber 3/4 x 1".
Pics will follow later on.
I have some questions though about the loading.
  I want to shoot short ranges so the powder chamber will not be full is this no problem as i always learned to have no air between load and projectile.
  Question 2 is do you use any wadding between the golfball and the charge?
  Question 3 is about the vent hole,as the chamber will not be full where does it enter the chamber and should it be angled?(i will use 3mm visco fuse)
The barrel is mainly finished exept for the vent hole and the trunnion has to be attached(barrel is milled out to accept it)with 2 screws.
I rather ask these questions before proceeding the work,

Kind regards,

Andy



Offline Victor3

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 11:53:12 PM »
 I wouldn't worry about the air space. Pressure with a golf ball in a mortar is minimal. No wadding required.

 I'd put the vent at the bottom of the chamber, and at 90 degrees to it (no angle). If the chamber has a drill point angle at the bottom, I'd aim for the vent to hit the shoulder where the diameter meets the angle.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 01:48:42 AM »
I have no preference on the angle of the touch hole except for where it's going to blow the residue.  Smallest sizes of fuse are self-consuming.

Watch, of course, the transition when drilling into the powder chamber - well known for breaking bits when entering the powder chamber.

AND you need to make a choice of whether or not to put in a liner in the fuse hole.

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Offline Rickk

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 04:50:20 AM »
If you drill in for the fuse hole at a 90 degree angle, and you use aluminum foil bagged powder charges, you have to deal with making sure that the hole points to the right location no matter the charge size. If you drill too close to the rear, it may miss the back of the powder bag. If you drill too far forward and are shooting small charges, it may miss the front of the powder bag.  Be aware that a short charge loaded with a round ball projectile may not sit perfectly flat when loaded.

On my mortar, which has no powder chamber, I drilled in at a slight angle that starts closer to the muzzle and enters the chamber pointing to the lower third of the bottom of the bore. It enters far enough forward that it won't miss the rear of the bagbag, and since it points toward the bottom of the bore it will hit that bag no matter how small it is.

Such an angle is prefered on a mortar due to the 45 degree angle that the mortar sits at.

On a horizontally mounted gun, you can face the angle either forward or rearward a few degrees to accomplish the same goal. I believe that traditionally they enter closer to the rear and angle forward upon chamber entry. I think the angle was there for the same reason as had when drilling my mortar. An angle that starte from the rear and enters the bore right at the base of the chamber, angling towards the muzzle, could utilize a steeper angle than the mere 4 degrees that I chose for my mortar. More angle going from rear to muzzle, and entering very near the base of the chamber would guarantee powder bag puncture no matter how long or short the bag was. A hole that entered from the rear of the chamber on the same axis as the bore would be the ideal angle from the perspective of ignition.   

However,  Like CW says, consider where it is pointing the residue. A hole that is ideal from the perspective of ignition would be far from ideal from the perspective of bystander safety. Some sort of compomise is mostly likely in order.

On my carronade I drilled in at a 90 degree angle. I forget exactly, but I think the center if the hole was something like .200 from the rear of the chamber. Unlike a mortar, there is no need to use light charges to adjust range so I am not afraid of ever having a charge so short that I will miss the front of the powder bag. On the mortar, which has no powder chamber, my charges are full bore diameter. Light charges  (100 Yard shooting) are really, really short. Even with the angled fuse hole Ignition is sometimes a bit flaky if I reduce charges much below what will land a lead ball at 100 yards. A 7 inch long, concrete filled piece of muffle pipe weighs half as much as a lead ball and I can't get reliable ignition at anything less than a 200 yard load.

Another factor is projectile shape. If you are using a round ball you won't have this problem, but if you are using a cylindrical projectile and the charge is light, the base of the projectile might be so far rearward that the hole is blocked by the projectile base. I found that our when shooting my concrete filled muffle pipe rounds. I guess that would give an advantage to a hole that starts very close to the bottom of the chamber and enters angling somewhat towards the muzzle.

Rick

Offline barebower

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 05:28:26 AM »
Interesting matter on the angled hole... i will consider it
I want to pour the powder load straight into the chamber though (with all safety precautions taken) wich leaves me little choise as to drill the hole close to the bottom of the chamber for the fuse to be in the powder with light loads.As i have read here on the forum i would need to start with about 24 grains of ff powder.That is why i asked about the air gap between the powder and golfball as the chamber will not be full.
The mortar i am building will look alot like the one Terry C has build although i don't want to copy his completely and will make some minor changes on the sled.
I turned mine out of 304 SS bar stock of 4 inches.
With the right cutting tools and cooling 304 let iself cut fairly well although it gives a shiny finish.
I want to glassblast the barrel and give it a rub with a cloth with stove black wich gives it a dark grey appearance.
As i said i will post pics later on.
Any more opinions on the air gap and wadding?
Excuse me if my spelling is not ok now and then as i am from Belgium...


Andy

Offline GGaskill

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 05:32:19 AM »
Your spelling is a lot better than some of the natives here.
GG
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2009, 06:41:39 AM »
My Southbend cohorn is bored 2.25" it has a chamber . I do not use powder bags and just pour it in down the tube .

No wadding ,I wouldnt worry about filling the chamber .

I recently started shooting pool balls from it . 25grs of 2F will pop a poolball @25-30 yds

At the risk of sounding like a broken record Fox Ind. will sell you 42.8mm /1.686" steel balls for 1.50 each w/ no minimum , talk to Ken . I'm sure the Thunk on the ground to be much more satisfying

The most dangorus thing about spectating is to make sure nobody is directly is behind the fuse hole as ejected flamming fuse is hot .
rocklockI

ETA if you are in Beigum Fox is not an option......But the balls they sell are made for coal mining and crushing coal maybe there are some over there ?
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline CannonKrazy

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2009, 07:05:27 AM »
Something you might consider for wading but isn't necessary. I use the paper cup cake holders.I load the powder and then put the golfball into the paper cup cake. It serves no other purpose other than to keep the balls from becoming black with powder burns. If you intend to reuse the balls this helps preserve them.

Offline Double D

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 07:37:39 AM »
Your spelling is a lot better than some of the natives here.


Who you calling native  ;D ;D ;D

Offline irishman

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 07:54:39 AM »
All very good and some new info above. I would like to suggest that you take the time to set the stop on your drill to prevent drilling into the bottom of the chamber.

                                        Michael

Offline GGaskill

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2009, 10:02:36 AM »
Who you calling native ;D ;D ;D

If you think your spelling is bad, you should look at some of the other GBO fora.   ;D
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2009, 10:28:54 AM »
....
Excuse me if my spelling is not ok now and then as i am from Belgium...
Andy

I purposefully made one of the board principles as that of not complaining about spelling.   ;D  It may in fact get in the way of communicating - like when (true story) the employment agency was asked to place a person of experience as a "whorehouse manager".  (He meant to have written "warehouse manager".)  So if it can be figured out I don't complain; but I do raz DD on his typing now and then.

SO, keep the questions coming!  They are the heart and sole of this board!

Rickk - great summery on purposes of angle!



Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline waynef

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2009, 02:57:42 PM »
Barebower,

No wading is needed.
No need to worry about the gap in the powder chamber with light loads. Adjusting the powder charge is how the range or distance is obtained. My powder chamber is abt the same size as urs.
My GB mortar will consistently drop the ball at 100yrds + or - 5' with 24gr FF Goex. I clean between each shot.
I also wash my Golf Balls with soap and water when I get home and use them again & again.

Wayne

Offline Double D

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2009, 03:07:51 PM »
The airspace problem comes into play with a sealed bore such as in a muzzle loading rifle or cartridge gun. In cannons and mortars the projectile has windage.  This not only is an aid in loading in a fouled bore, but it also allows pressure to escape around the projectile.

Offline barebower

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2009, 12:01:48 AM »
Hi all,

Thank you very much for your answers,all is clear to me now....
I will drill a 3mm hole at a 90 degee angle close to the bottom of the chamber.
Can't wait to try it out but i want to finnish the carriage first and have to find the right wood for it.
What i really like about the golfball mortar is that one can shoot live rounds at a short range and that they are not to loud.

Andy

Offline Rickk

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2009, 04:52:00 AM »
before you pick the hole diameter, measure the fuse you are planning on using and add a bit for clearance, or at least drill a test hole in a piece of scrap and see if you are happey with it.

3mm may be a bit tight for 1/8 inch "cannon fuse".

On the other hand, there is 2mm and 1/16 " fuse almost as readily available as the more common 1/8 inch "cannon fuse".

Rick

Offline barebower

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2009, 06:14:37 AM »
I have got 3mm visco fuse that  measures 2,8 mm,that is why i want to start with 3 mm.
Making the hole larger later on is no problem...

Andy

Offline Terry C.

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2009, 06:25:20 AM »
On bores and chambers smaller than 1" diameter, I prefer to use the smaller fuse. This lets me drill a smaller vent and still have good clearance.

Being in Belgium may present a problem, though. You can't use what you can't get. My supplier will not ship outside the USA.

Here's a link to the small fuse I buy, maybe with some details you can find a vendor:

1.8mm Visco at CannonFuse.com


Common practice dictates "one and one-half times fuse diameter" for the vent drill. That would give you a vent of 4.2mm. 4mm would be close enough to follow this rule of thumb (which I have always found to be a little on the generous side).

You may find that you can suffice just as well with the 3mm vent, but be prepared to clean the vent thoroughly between shots. And a good chamfer the mouth of the vent will help.

I'm with you on the "better to drill it out later than drill it too big now" school of thought.

Offline Double D

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2009, 06:42:03 AM »
There is a rule of thumb for vent holes 1 1/2 calibers. 3 mm fuse needs a 4.5 mm hole.

If you make the vent too tight you wil have problems getting the fuse in the hole, especially after firing. You will have to scrap the vent hole to bare metal each and every time after firing.  This isn't a bad idea but it also contributes to wallowing of the vent hole.  Also a smaller vent hole will increase vent pressure and increase vent erosion and throw burning fuse embers further.

Offline barebower

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2009, 07:15:59 PM »
I know i should have a vent hole 1,5 the fuse size(i readed it here on the forum.. ;D,but i want to start smaller as i am afraid of the pressure loss with small loads...and i concidered giving the hole a good champfer and maybe mill out a small cup and tig weld it behind the hole.Then the powder sits on the hole at a 45 degree angle.
Then i can always use swiss powder and linstock to ignite the mortar
Thank you all for the answers,i have been reading alot here but there is still soo much too learn about cannons.
Also i like what my father always used to say...measure twice,cut once....
Or...inform yourself well before starting.

Andy

Offline Double D

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2009, 07:54:48 PM »
You are going to have to have a pretty small charge to have a significant loss of pressure via the vent. 

If you take a look at  K.I.S.S. mortar you find a powder chamber almost identical to the one you reference with the proper vent.  That mortar was built to shoot 30 yards with 24 grains of FG.  It also shot 300 yards with 50 grains

You aren't going to loose pressure via the vent.

You are also going to find it a bit difficult to charge a vent in a mortar with loose powder.

Offline Victor3

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2009, 08:33:01 PM »
You are going to have to have a pretty small charge to have a significant loss of pressure via the vent. 

If you take a look at  K.I.S.S. mortar you find a powder chamber almost identical to the one you reference with the proper vent.  That mortar was built to shoot 30 yards with 24 grains of FG.  It also shot 300 yards with 50 grains

You aren't going to loose pressure via the vent.

 I think what you're saying here is that with a small charge, you will have more of a percentage loss of pressure as opposed to the same vent diameter using a heavier charge.

 Correct?
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Double D

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2009, 03:35:20 AM »
Nope not saying that at all.

I'm saying that it will take a very small charge, to suffer a significant loss of pressure via the vent.

You will of course loose some pressure via the vent, the larger the vent of course the greater the loss.  But the loss from a 1 caliber to a 1 1/2 vent will not be great enough to warrant a smaller vent.  If any thing the smaller vent is going to cause problems. 

THe smaller vent will have higher velocity ejecta when fired.  The smaller diameter vent will be more difficult to clean between shots. I also believe the smaller vent because of the high velocity gases will suffer sooner the effects of erosion.  Erosion will misshape and make rough the vent hole.  This will make it more diffucult to properly clean the vent and this increases the chance of it holding a burning ember.


Offline barebower

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2009, 05:56:23 AM »
Hi all,

Today i finished the coehorn barrel and trunnion.
As you can see i made a few changes on the design....i took square bar stock for the trunnion and rounded both ends on the lathe.
This made it also easier to attach to the barrel as i only had to mill a straight slot to accept it.
Also i milled out a small slot right in front of where the vent hole comes.
All that is left to do on the barrel is to drill the holes to accept the trunnion and to drill the vent hole(4mm).
Will keep you updated when i start on the carriage,

Kind regards,

Andy

Offline Terry C.

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2009, 01:09:37 PM »
That's one fine lookin' mortar!

Stainless too (I'm jealous)!

Since you're going to use a sled base, the square trunnion bar is not a problem, and it gives the mortar a unique appearance.

What is the diameter of the trunnions?

Offline barebower

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2009, 06:46:43 PM »
Terry,

The trunnion bar is 30mmx170mm.
The dia. of the barrel is 78 and 90mm.
The rounded end is a bit smaller as this was a scrap piece that was lying at work already rounded on the cnc lathe.
This came in very handy offcourse.... :)

Andy

Offline Ex 49'er

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2009, 09:51:46 PM »
That there is one great looking mortar. It has a very unique and distinctive look. I like the dimple where the vent will be.
Have fun launching balls when it is finished.
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline barebower

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2009, 08:14:58 PM »
Sorry for the coke can but it shoots golfballs....it used it only for scale as i have no goex can over here.
I got some winddry maple yesterday from a friend and want to make the carriage from that.

Andy

Offline dan610324

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2009, 04:30:15 AM »
how is the laws in belgium about owning and shooting cannons ??
here in sweden its still free to own a muzzle loading cannon as long as you  dont fire it with an bullet .
if you do so without the proper permit you will end up in jail .
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline barebower

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Re: golfball mortar loading
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2009, 08:48:13 PM »
It is the same here,although the laws change all the time here lately,you have to read the updates all the time too know what is allowed and what not...confusing.
As for the carriage,the wood i was given is cracking so i can't use it.
I started the carriage in ertalon.....i had a black 30mm plate at work and thought whynot...
It is offcourse not a classic material but very easy to clean now as all is ertalon and stainless steel and to me it looks good.
I can clean my mortar with the steam cleaner now.... ;D
Will keep you all curieus untill this afternoon,then i will post some pictures when it is finished.

Andy