Author Topic: .338 federal? (getting into reloading) (Read 1964 times)

jammer308 · « **on:** January 10, 2009, 04:19:24 PM »

Well my curiosity keeps getting the best of me, and now I just gotta now about this round. What do you think, does it have a following to keep it around? I also wonder about twist and bullets with this round. What would the ideal twist be if I was to have a barrel re-bored and chambered for it? And what would the ideal barrel length be? Seems like it would be a good choice for shorter carbine length rifle, which I tend to like, a lot. also what pressure does it run at? Any and all opinions welcome.

And facts too.

Anyone do any testing with this round?

Lone Star · « **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2009, 04:10:52 AM »

The .308-based .338 Federal is a nice little cartridge for a lightweight carbine. With a larger bore than its .308 parent it should work very well in an 18.5"-20" barrel - the .308 certainly does. If you want to shoot 250s then a 1:10" twist is needed. 200s could probably be shot with a slower rate, but IMO use a 10". My .338-06 loaded to .338 Fed velocities shoots all bullet weights very well with its 1:10" bore. No idea about any following, but given the less than stellar history of the very similar .358 WCF, I would doubt that the .338 Federal will ever make the top-twenty list. BTW, SAAMI pressure is 62,000 psi.

.

jammer308 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 11, 2009, 09:51:31 AM »

Thank you Lonestar. So it would seem that I'll need to re-load for it if I went that route. is it a good choice for re-loading as far as availability/cost of bullets? I don't yet reload, and I'm getting more and more interested in it. I love my .308's and and would have no quarrel purchasing another rifle in 30.06, but the .338 fed seems nice in that you get 30.06 performance or better, but a bigger hole, with less recoil. I can use .308 brass right? How about .243 brass? And is it possible to shorten 30.06 brass and re-size for this caliber? Sorry if it's a dumb question, I'm brand new to re-loading.

ps. Where's the best supplier of bullets to be found?

surveyor47 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2009, 03:48:22 AM »

Why don't you start reloading with your 308 & 30-06? They use the same bullets, primers and similar powders. A good single stage press kit such as the RCBS Rockchucker would get you started. The 308 & 30-06 combination allows you to minimize the variety of components, which is important when it comes to controlling cost. Both work well with dumb bullets such as the Hornady Interlock or Remington Corelock, which drastically decreases cost.

The Lyman data indicates that the 338 Federal is a bit of an oddball, requiring relatively fast powders for best performance. That pressure limit is really way up there in magnum territory. a lot higher than the 30-06. With a pressure limit that high, how much case life are you going to get? My guess is that case life would be 3 to 4 firings. Several writers have indicated that premium bullets are needed in this round. The more I look at this round, the better the 358 Winchester looks. I considered both rounds, but once I tried the 45-70, I dropped both the 338 Federal & 358 Winchester from consideration. The 308, 30-06 & 45-70 combination covers most anything that walks the continent. A good 270 Winchester or 280 Remington would round out that setup, but really isn't necessary.

If you want a 338 caliber rifle without severe recoil, the 338-06 ought to get very serious consideration.

jumpsteady · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:50:32 AM »

In collaboration with Sako Rifles, Federal Cartridge's engineers and ballistctans have developed the .338 Federal, which necks up the proven .308 Winchester case to accept a .338 caliber bullet. This design, which is the first to bear the name 'Federal' on the headstamp, is intended to provide big-bore wallop with moderate recoil for today's light weight, short bolt-action rifles. It is a commercial version of the .338-08 wildcat.

The .338 Federal bears more than a passing resemblance to the .358 Winchester cartridge, which was introduced in 1955. Like the .358 Win, the .338 Federal offers excellent performance on big game without magnum recoil. Its muzzle energy exceeds the 30-06 with a similar weight bullet. equalling the muzzle energy of the 7mm Remington Magnum. Its muzzle velocity ranges to approximately 200 feet per second greater than its parent .308 Winchester with similar weight bullets. Owners of custom .338-08 rifles should not use factory .338 Federal ammo, many custom .338-08 chambers are slightly shorter than .338 Federal cases. It is recommended that bullets no larger than 225 grains be used because of the reduced powder capacity due to the longer bullet. Maximum pressure has been established at 62,000 psi. Maximum overall cartridge length is about 2.820'. Most powders that work for the .308 Winchester also work great for the .338 Federal. The rate of twist is 1 in 10", which is comparable to all other factory .338 chamberings

I have one in a ruger m77. I have used w748, imr4895, and TAC in my reloads and have had good results. All I have used is the 180 grain Nosler Accu-bond, but I am going to try some 225 Accu-bonds this spring when the weather warms up. I like this chambering and if I had an Encore I would have a barrel chambered for this. My contender just won't take it.

Jumpsteady

Lone Star · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:25:09 PM »

Quote

...So it would seem that I'll need to re-load for it if I went that route. is it a good choice for re-loading as far as availability/cost of bullets? I can use .308 brass right? How about .243 brass? And is it possible to shorten 30.06 brass and re-size for this caliber?

You don't have to reload, factory ammo should work just fine. I see no reason why the .338 Federal would not be a peach to reload for - no different than the .308 or any other similar cartridge, just different load data. You could use .308 brass, I would not recommend .243 as the necks would get pretty thin. It is "possible" to shorten .30-06 brass, but the trouble involved is not worth it unless you really enjoyed the case manipulations. You'd need to turn the necks before you could load those cases, more equipment cost. Best to get the right brass in the first place.

.

surveyor47 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:15:07 PM »

And what about the availability of 308 Winchester brass? Right now it's pretty scarce. If you watch the Midway USA website www.midwayusa.com you will find that it's on backorder, as it has been for most of the year. In the last year, I have only been able to purchase 200 pieces, before the supply was gone. 30-06 brass has been much easier to come by.

The reason that the 338 Federal works is that they have boosted pressure 10,000 cup in excess of the 308 Winchester. It is in essence a non-belted magnum, but provides non-magnum ballistics. This is why it is an oddball. High pressure, relatively low velocity, sometimes below the design velocity of available bullets, thus requiring careful bullet selection. I wouldn't recommend this cartridge to a beginner reloader due to high pressure and probable short case life. There is a a lot more to it than a difference in loading data. 338 Federal brass isn't even listed on the Midway website. So you are going to have to purchase extremely expensive loaded rounds or convert 308 Winchester brass, which is scarce. By comparison, 358 Winchester brass is usually available in seasonal runs.

By comparison, the 358 Winchester operates at 308 Winchester pressures and works fine with most available 35 caliber rifle bullets. This round should be a no brainer to reload.

I was seriously considering purchasing a 338 Federal until I saw the reloading data. I really think that a 338-06 or 35 Whelen is a much better proposition in a bolt action. What is it a that a 338 Federal can do that a 180 grain or 200 grain 30-06 cannot?

jammer308 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2009, 01:56:41 PM »

Thanks to all of you. You all have me thinking now.

I still like the .338 federal, but maybe I should start reloading with the .308. I do already have brass for it. Then I'll have something to use for .338 federal when I get to know more of what I'm doing. I do not own a 30.06 yet. but now see a definate need for one, and "want" too.

What is the most available brass out there at the current time? Where do you all buy your brass and bullets? Thanks again. jammer

ps. Lonestar, thanks for answering the .243/30.06 brass question. I wasn't intending on setting out and using it, but wanted to know if it was "possible" in a pinch. That nailed it for me. Thanks a million.

surveyor47 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2009, 06:50:28 PM »

30-06 and 270 Winchester are the 2 most common.

I pick up lots of 30-06 brass at the range and its free.

www.midwayusa.com

surveyor47 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2009, 07:17:03 PM »

Recommended bullets, primers and powders. Reference Hornady Reloading Manual & Lyman Reloading Manual 49th Edition

308 Winchester Powders:
WW748
BLC2
IMR4064

308 Winchester Bullets
Hornady 150 grain Interlock Spire Point #3031
Hornady 165 grain Interlock Spire Point
Remington 150 or 165 grain CoreLock

308 Winchester Primers
Winchester WLR Large Rifle Primers
Remington 9 1/2 Large Rifle Primers

30-06 Preferred Powders
IMR4064 for 150 and 165 grain bullets
IMR4350 for 180 grain bullets
IMR4895 for 150 grain bullets

30-06 Primers
Winchester WLR Large Rifle Primers
Remington 9 1/2 Large Rifle Primers

30-06 Bullets
Hornady 150 grain Interlock Spire Point #3031
Hornady 165 grain Interlock Spire Point
Hornady 180 grain Interlock Spire Point
Hornady 200 and 220 grain bulelts for N. American animals larger than elk
Remington 150 or 165 grain or 180 grain CoreLock

Notice that the components are nearly identical except for 180 grain bullets, which may not develop sufficent velocity in a short 308 Winchester barrel. Owning a 30-06 in addition to a 308 Winchester costs little more than the price of a rifle and differing bullets.

The similarity in the 30 caliber family largely ceases at the 300 Winchester Magnum, which usually but not always requires a magnum primer, different bullets (more heavily constructed starting with the 180 grain) and different powders. About the only thing in common is the bullet diameter.

General Formula:
30-06 = 300 Winchester Magnum at 100 yards
308 Winchester = 300 Winchester Magnum at 150 yards
30-30= 300 Winchester Magnum at 300 yards

surveyor47 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2009, 06:06:38 AM »

Following the logic that a 308 Winchester is about equivalent to a 300 Winchester Magnum at 150 yards:

The 300 Winchester Magnum requires bullets heavier and usually stronger construction than a 308 Winchester in order not to explode at short range or fail to expand at long range. The 308 Winchester similarly requires bullets lighter and differently constructed in order to open up properly with its range.

Given the fact that most 338 cal bullets are intended for the 338 Winchester Magnum and similar rounds, one can anticipate that many are not going to work well out of a 308 Winchester based cartridge. In order to get optimum performance out of the 338 Federal, bullets will have to be very carefully selected and perhaps even designed to work out of the 338 Federal.

It is not impossible to get the 338 Federal to work well, just more difficult than the 358 Winchester.

Lone Star · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2009, 08:35:26 AM »

Quote

Given the fact that most 338 cal bullets are intended for the 338 Winchester Magnum and similar rounds, one can anticipate that many are not going to work well out of a 308 Winchester based cartridge.

While anticip............................................ation can be fun, it does not always match reality. Those of us who use the .338-06 and .338 Federal on game seem to have no trouble with bullet performance. IME the Nosler 180BT and the Speer 200SP both exhibit great performance with as low as a 2500 fps muzzle velocity. I can't speak to the heavier bullets and they may be too hard - but the above 2 will meet 90% of the requirements for this cartridge.

.

surveyor47 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 14, 2009, 09:54:43 AM »

Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition lists both of the bullets you mentioned as suitable for 338 Federal. The 180 grain accubond shows a maximum muzzle velocity of 2755 FPS. The Speer 200 grain shows a maximum muzzle velocity of 2583 FPS.

It would make sence that the 338-06 should be an easier round to reload, since it is only about 100-150 FPS behind the 338 Winchester Magnum. The 338-06 makes a whole lot more sence to me than the 338 Federal, in some ways preferable to the 35 Whelen. My concern about the 338 Federal is that it is so far behind the 338 Winchester Magnum that bullet selection is critical. If you are using 180 grain bullets in the 338 Federal, what is the application that a 30-06 cannot accomplish with longer effective range? The 338-06 would seem to offer greater stopping power on larger than deer game than a 30-06, particularly at short to medium range, with less recoil than a 338 Magnum.

surveyor47 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 14, 2009, 10:50:32 AM »

How many firings are you actually getting out of 338 Federals?

Are you using factory brass or are you converting 308 Winchester brass?

Are you getting hard extraction?

Is muzzle blast and noise similar to a magnum or a standard rifle cartridge?

Have you noticed any difference in effectiveness on game between the 338 Federal and the 30-06?

jammer308 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 14, 2009, 12:45:57 PM »

O.k. so like I said this all brand new to me, so all I have is a 1983 Hodgen manual #24. Is that still good info? An old timer passed away last summer and I got some old hunting/shooting books and magazines from his family. I thought it would be really cool to put some of his stuff to good use. But if it's outdated I guess I gotta get a new book.

Can you guys give a me a list of things I need to buy to get started in .308/30.06? I saw that Lee was advertising a new starter kit in some magazine not too long ago. Looked like it was a good buy at $128.00 or so. But it had a regular scale, not a digital. I'm thinking I'll need a digital to get the best accuracy though.

ps. I added to the title of this thread in case someone else is searching reloading info. The info all you guys have given is just too good not to share. Thanks again. jammer

onesonek · « **Reply #15 on:** January 14, 2009, 01:08:20 PM »

While the .338 Fed. doesn't trip my trigger, I see it as a pretty good round for the most part, and
even better handloaded. I personally wouldn't have any qualms in loading with the 225 gr Accubond and using it on everthing in the "lower 48". I think it would do well on Elk out to 250 yds no problem and 300 if need be.
If I were reluctant to buy factory rounds to obtain brass for reloading,,,,,well right now the least costly Rem. and Win. brass is hard to get. The Hornady, Lapua, are still easy to find. I would l might look at necking down the .358 winny myself as an option. I don't think that going down .020" is going to gain enough thinkness in the neck to worry about in the greater share of factory chambers. If it does, well turning while adding expense isnt that great of cost, and can have it benefits in the accuracy dept.
If you wanted to just use for deer, then I might look at the lighter weights, but would stay with the premium bullet under 200 grs.
My 2nd choice would be 210 gr. N. Partition. But any of the less costly 200 grainers would suffice nicely on deer sized game.
I wouldn't worry so much about the lack of bullet performance unless you start pushing into magnum cartridge ranges, past the 300 yd mark. But for the most part the round will point blank range out to 225-275 yds which is about as far as I care to shoot at big game anyhow. I much more enjoy the getting closer part of hunting.

Dave

onesonek · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2009, 01:19:02 PM »

Quote from: jammer308 on January 14, 2009, 12:45:57 PM

O.k. so like I said this all brand new to me, so all I have is a 1983 Hodgen manual #24. Is that still good info? An old timer passed away last summer and I got some old hunting/shooting books and magazines from his family. I thought it would be really cool to put some of his stuff to good use. But if it's outdated I guess I gotta get a new book.

Can you guys give a me a list of things I need to buy to get started in .308/30.06? I saw that Lee was advertising a new starter kit in some magazine not too long ago. Looked like it was a good buy at $128.00 or so. But it had a regular scale, not a digital. I'm thinking I'll need a digital to get the best accuracy though.

ps. I added to the title of this thread in case someone else is searching reloading info. The info all you guys have given is just too good not to share. Thanks again. jammer

Those starter kits are ok for the most part. I don't necessarily think the digitals scales are any more accurate than a good beam scale. Actually I think the oposite is more likely true. Most scales are accurate to within .1 gr. ( correction made), with a balance you can read between the lines. Whereas with a digital you can not. jmho

If you could link that starter kit, I/ we could give you a better idea, of what it might be missing. And or if better to go another way, even if it is slightly more costly. I think prices of the future are going to go much higher, so no time like the present. I hope I'm wrong, but not willing to bet against myself on this one.

Dave

Lone Star · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:07:10 PM »

Quote

Most scales are accurate to within .01 gr., with a balance you can read between the lines. Whereas with a digital you can not....

Several problems here. First, reloading scales are marked in 0.1 grain graduations, not 0.01. Second, it is industry standard in measuring devices that an instrument's accuracy is no better than the smallest interval of graduation. Thus both scales have the same accuracy - within 0.1 grains of the actual weight. You are fooling yourself if you think that half way between the marks allows you to accurately measure down to 0.05 grains. But then again why would you want to?

.

onesonek · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:18:37 PM »

Oooops,,,I meant .1 grain,,,,,I'll disagree with your second part, and thats why I trickle the last 1/2 grain or so of those I'm looking for peak accuracy... The consistency of how I do it is just one of those things I can attribute, most of my loads are having an extreme spread of velocity in the single digits.
You can't get that consistency with digital readout that +/- .1,, I didnt say I could read .05 .03 or whatever, the point was you can visually see zero and can also see the difference between one kernal/flake of powder, is what I meant, if i didnt explain it right ,,,my mistake.

surveyor47 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2009, 05:30:36 PM »

This RCBS kit ought to be aboujt what you need.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=646599

NO, the 1983 Hodgdon Manual is NOT up to date. Lots of things have changed. NEVER NEVER take loads from a magazine without verifying it with an up to date manual.

A great website for data is is www.hodgdon.com

jammer308 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 15, 2009, 01:43:01 PM »

The rock chucker looks good, andcomes with speer manual. Nice touch. But the Lee is about $150 less. What do you guys think, are there any other kits like these to compare? Which one and why? Tax time is getting close. 2 new guns AND a reloader this year....

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1232065824.4471=/html/catalog/anivers.html

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 17, 2009, 11:02:58 AM »

How about the .338 Marlin Express? A little fatter(not near as much as in WSM), a little shorter(looks like a 300Savage on steroids)... virtually same performance...AND.... a rimmed case. Just a thought...have no experience with either, but it looks good to me. Yea, brass is propriortory but nothing is harder to get now than .308 brass. Marlin is commited to making the rifles, so I'd think it would stick around. I really love rimmed cases!!! Just a thought. GOOD SHOOTIN', Walt

jammer308 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 17, 2009, 03:32:21 PM »

Thanks Walt. I hadn't even thought of it, but will look into it.

I'm going to stick with my .308 for now though, and look for a 30.06 barrel for my encore in the future. (I've still got a .243 project in the works) I've been reading the re-loading forums a bit and got the ABC's of Reloading 3rd Edition from the same fella who passed away I got the 1983 Hodgen manual. These should be good to familiarize myself more with re-loading, and I'll get the recommended Lyman manual next payday.

Once again thanks for all the help everyone. jammer

surveyor47 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 18, 2009, 07:05:00 AM »

My default reloading manuals are the Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Ed and current Hornady Reloading Manual. Those are the 2 must haves and of the two, the Lyman is the best by far. In 35 years of reloading, I have never had a bad load from Lyman.

surveyor47 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2009, 02:10:37 AM »

A good source for Encore barrels is Mid South Shooters Supply www.midsouthshooterssupply.com

One thing to consider for the future is a 26 inch medium taper heavy barrel with sights in 30-06 from T/Cs custom shop. You can purchase Williams Firesight (front sight) and Williams Foolproop (Target Madel) rear sight and have a fantastic open sight rifle. I have a 45-70 barrel set up like that and it is my inexpensive version of a Quigley Sharps. Every shooter who has fired it wants one.

Even without sights, the 26 inch barrel has some real advantages over the 24" carbine barrel. The gun just seems better balanced and steadier. It is still light enogh for hunting.

onesonek · « **Reply #25 on:** January 19, 2009, 03:47:37 AM »

Quote from: jammer308 on January 17, 2009, 03:32:21 PM

Thanks Walt. I hadn't even thought of it, but will look into it. I'm going to stick with my .308 for now though, and look for a 30.06 barrel for my encore in the future. (I've still got a .243 project in the works) I've been reading the re-loading forums a bit and got the ABC's of Reloading 3rd Edition from the same fella who passed away I got the 1983 Hodgen manual. These should be good to familiarize myself more with re-loading, and I'll get the recommended Lyman manual next payday.

Once again thanks for all the help everyone. jammer

Lost track of this a while,,,, Ok if you're going with the .308 and as mentioned brass for it is tough to get. What I would do and did do, is go with the .307 brass. Uses the same .308 dies,, only difference is a rim, and the brass is a little thicker of which I haven't had a problem in getting.. Wtih the another extractor in your stock, you can swtich to .308 brass. They can't use the same load however. With the .307 being thicker heavier, it has slightly less capacity than the .308 brass. The load books lower velocitieswith the .307 when compared to the .308, but that's due to the use in weaker lever actions. It may not equal the .308 in the Encore, but close enough for normal ranges.
Just another option and the one I would do if I were you.

Dave

jammer308 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 19, 2009, 06:10:14 AM »

I totally agree with the open sights surveyor. All of my guns have to have them. I won't have a gun otherwise. The first thing I do with any gun is dial in the open sights. I shoot plenty good at normal hunting ranges (129 lasered yards at the farm) and most of the time prefer them. Slug gun, muzzleloader, rifle doesn't matter. I like the option of a scope though, because it's nice for checking the true accuracy potential with the guns/ammo. The only barrel that wears a scope full time is my 15" .308. But it does have the front sight and I'm wanting to get the peep rib for it so it also has the option for regular sights. Gotta have em.

onesonek, That's one reason why I'm liking the .308 family of cartridges so much. Not that i'm going to go to all the trouble of modifying cases for it, but it sure is nice to know that if I need to, I can. Thanks for the tip.

surveyor47 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 19, 2009, 06:27:26 AM »

The E Arthur Brown peep sight/scope mount might interest you. The setup I mentioned is open sight only, which is how I have set up most of my 24" carbine barrels. The mount below allows for peep sight as well, but I still prefer a micrometer click adjustable peep sight.

http://www.eabco.com/Muzzleloader03.htm

jammer308 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 19, 2009, 01:28:25 PM »

Yup, that's the one I was talking about.

I'm not sure how I'll like the peep, but I've got to give it a try. Seems about the only way I can have back-up sights on a scoped encore handgun?

surveyor47 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 19, 2009, 06:29:01 PM »

I know this setup works on a rifle; however, you will need a higher front sight than the original. I tried this on a 30-06 and had to install a higher front sight to get her on target at 50 yards.

I am not real familiar with the Encore handgun. I have seen Contenders with peep sights, but not of the EABCO variety. More along the lines of a Williams Foolproof. I think that with the handgun its sort of one or the other.