one rifle?

[galster69]

If we all spent as much time learning survival techniques (like starting a fire without modern techniques, trapping, navigation, concealment, food preparation and preservation) as we did talking about what guns work and don't work we'd be much better off.  I see a few people here that sound like they know what they're doing and would be prepared but I'm sure most of us would benefit more from learning the techniques than trying to figure out which gun to carry.  After all, the gun would most likely be used MUCH less than the knowledge of survival techniques.  Just my .02 worth.

[Dixie Dude]

I've done and tried all of the above, but guns are more exciting and interesting.  I prefer flint and steel for fire starting or pull a bullet and fire the primer into the empty powder placed on fire starting material.  I have canned, dried veggies, and made jerkey.  I know how to use a bow, and make traps and snares.  I have a paperback book in a plastic bag in my backpack of eatable plants and medicinal plants.  Guns are much more exciting. 

[Swampman]

IMO a marksman isn't handicapped with a boltgun or a single shot.  Learn to shoot not spray.

[mechanic]

IMO a marksman isn't handicapped with a boltgun or a single shot.  Learn to shoot not spray.

There were some folks who came into this country when it was a wilderness, were surrounded often by men hostile to them, not to mention hostile animals, and they survived with muzzle loaders and a small knap sack of gear.  Most of us, myself included would probably be in trouble.....

Ben

[don heath]

Dixie dude...my main point was...a good bolt action with a variable scope (say 1,5-6) is as useful in defence as a semi auto and a lot more conservative of ammo.

If you cannot get a machine gun, then
a) a good pistol or revolver for normal trouble
b) A good 12g shotgun for trouble out to 100m or so
c) A decent bolt action rifle with great scope (scope actually nearly as important as the rifle type and cal) for 50-500m

IF you are planning on walking or riding a bycycle far, you will have to loose one of the above and ammo weight becomes a real issue...1000 rnds of boxed 7.62 ball weighs 68,3lbs...223 is about half the weight but even so...it is not uncommon to go through two magazines in one brief 30 second firefight (when the bad guys break and run)...that is not many 'brief engagements' out of 30lbs of 5.56 ammo.

I know I cannot walk far carrying more than a very basic kit and 230rnds of 7,62. I used to be able to walk all day carryin a weeks food, the BREN and 25lbs off ammo in mags...but that was 20 years and two bullet wounds ago!

[Game_Stalker]

A few years ago, I picked up a Winnie 94AE in .44Mag. For a fun plinker round & bunny blasting, I worked up a load of 7.9gr of Alliant #7 behind a 200gr lead slug. Recoil was negligible, accuracy was good out to 50+yds & it cost me all of $0.09 each to produce. None too shabby, methinks.

I still kick myself for gettin rid of it.  

[Pat/Rick]

12 ga. .30-30. .22.  Everything else is window dressing. Those would be my bare minimum

[Rolandedwinjohnson]

I am curious, do I choose my "one rifle" to go with my "one pistol" or do I have multiple pistols to go with my only one rifle, or do I have no pistols at all, or do I just ignore the existence of pistols?

These options color the choice of a "one rifle".

When I was in Coeur d'Alene I met an old timer who's father came to town on horse with the wife in a covered wagon pulled by a pair of oxen.  His armament was:
On him - a 45 cal handgun with several reloads on the gun belt
On his horse - a 22 rimfire rifle
In the wagon- a 12 bore shotgun.

His reasoning was that with the hand gun on horse back he could take deer and elk and discuss things with the bad guys they met along the way,  with the 22 he generally kept the family provided with small game for dinner, and with the 12 bore he could provide a little of everything.  He didn't get a higher powered rifle until he settled down and found the need to "reach out and touch someone".

[Casull]

12 ga. .30-30. .22.

Good.

12 ga., 30-06, .22.

Better.

[teamnelson]

I am curious, do I choose my "one rifle" to go with my "one pistol" or do I have multiple pistols to go with my only one rifle, or do I have no pistols at all, or do I just ignore the existence of pistols?

I think that's yours to discuss. Lots of folks can't imagine a future without a rifle, and see a pistol as a luxury item. I am the reverse - a pistol is a requirement for me, and a rifle is gravy so as you say, it colors the choice. What would your line of reasoning be?

[SHOOTALL]

The handgun in this day being easy to hide makes sense !

[don heath]

Team Nelson is 100% right...the handgun is the survival tool. A rifle or shotgun is extra help. You cannot sleep in condition 'orange', and in fact there are many things that you cannot do with a rifle in your hands..which is when bad people with brains choose to attack.

I may have told this story on the forum before...One night I was driving back to the station at sengwa when I got a puncture in the front wheel... I got out and was immediately uncomfortable..so , I scanned the bush with my mag-lite and propped my rifle up on the mud flap as a jacked the truck up and started to change the wheel. All of a sudden all the hair on my back tood up (which about doubles my size ) so I stopped, grabbed the rifle and mag-light and made a careful scan of the bush...nothing I scanned a little closer...and 2 yards away- well inside the area I had first checked when I stopped was a lioness crouched in the grass. She didn't move when I politely told her to move along - by shouting and firing 3 rounds over her head- so I climbed back into the cab. There were two options. a) She was alone, in which case she was almost certainly a man eater in the making or she was with a pride...in which case where were the others? After an hour, hunger got the better of me and I got out and finshed changing the wheel while she sat and watched me. 

Anyway, because you only need/use a handgun when trouble has caught you napping or got in close, you actually need something with some power. I like a .357

[Couger]

Gotta say I was surprised Don, when you told me a lion or lioness isn't nearly as big (average) as I thought they were.  I thought an average female was 375+ lbs and a male >>  450-500lbs.  Plus I'm surprised a .357 is enough gun in many of your situations.

But I'm glad this thread is still going,
despite that some might think its beating some kind of dead horse ..... 

If I had to trek across the USA, but not need to worry about "bamster fedcoats" doing another Waco or Ruby Ridge assault on me and mine, I could be very happy with a universal boltgun .30/06 or .308Winnie to  easily handle ANYTHING in CONUS.  Altho its well pointed out for size and weight a .22LR is pretty 'universal'and much more DISCRETE.

Plus I still 'learn things' even when I've read old stories or anecdotes more than once.  I prefer a .40S&W when planning to deal with 2-legged vermin, altho the 9mm is still more popular and widespread.

When I read Don's posts about the African Continent, and also remember what South America and Australia have to contend with in and out of the modern city,  I THANK GOD I was born in a [fairly safe and well-blessed) country like the USA!  Most of the time a serious situation I might read about might involve a car jacking, or a black bear getting too close into someone's yard or even their home (Lake Tahoe most recently).

Unless I had to make food with a smallish .22 in a survivasl situation I would most likely probably cause myself to be in (my own fault!),  "some kind of accident" is the biggest threat I think my family and I have to worry about.  And having a healthy "situational awareness" and habit of being in CONDITION YELLOW I also think goes a long ways staying out of [stoopid] trouble!

[Casull]

Anyway, because you only need/use a handgun when trouble has caught you napping or got in close, you actually need something with some power. I like a .357

I sure don't think I would want to face an African lion with something as small as a .357.

[Couger]

I suspect being a crack shot and having calm nerves goes a long way in making a .357 'effective.'  But I agree with you Casull (I'm not an accomplished pistoleer!).   

[teamnelson]

To be a man in the Masai tribe you have to kill a lion, only then can you marry, own property, vote, etc. They do this with a spear; happens all the time. And as one of my Masai friends once explained to me, its not thrown from a distance - its up close and personal.

If this post-apocalyptic world we drag our one rifle into is going to be anything, its going to be up close and personal. No sleep, likely sick & hungry, probably at least a headache and bubbleguts - never mind limited duty due to a sprain or break, and keyed up on fear. Each round expended becomes more valuable the fewer you have. Lets leave out the weapon - how accurate do you suppose YOU will be much past 100 yds in those conditions, if that far? I anticipate more encounters inside 10yds (typical combat range) than further.

Some other things to consider: Is your rifle set up for ambidextrous operation? Can you fire it ambidextrously? Do you have backup irons for the optics? Can you remove the optics without tools, or do you carry the appropriate tool with you? Are the irons sighted in, most likely to 50yds? Have you practiced slow fire on your semi, feeding one round at a time into the chamber through the port? I don't think you can ORM your choices too much.

[Couger]

'Nelson, you share many good ideas and things to ponder.  And I appreciate Don's posts about life outside of CONUS (continental U.S.) too.

If you were going to try to help ed-ju-mi-cate a greenhorn from all-theory to at least some practical and, hands-on field-craft, what "books" would you start with and recommend?

(not that I'm "that" green and don't already have a library of sorts - but I believe in fundamentals as well as advanced lessons and materials, in case I do need to share with a newbee nephew, neighbor's son or mother-in-law)

I do have my dad's 1955 Boy Scout handbook, as well as his U.S.Navy [official]  text book he used in his first of several Navy (aviator) survival courses.

Are there any particular favorite "how to" survival books you fellas especially like and would recommend?  THANKS!   

[tacklebury]

what "books" would you start with and recommend?

Tom Brown's Field Guide to Wilderness Survival
Tom Brown's Field Guide to Living with the Earth
Tom Brown's Field Guide to Edible and Medicinal Plants

To lazy I guess to go pull them out of my survival pack, but I've read and re-read and practiced many of his recommendations.  Very solid books with decent visuals also.  They have been bumping around with me in my survival pack for nie unto 24 years.  One molded a little, but it's still legible at least. 

[don heath]

Books?

Shifts and expedients of camp life and travel.  Bains & Lord
Robinon crusoe (just reading it to my daughter...the practicalities of making do with very little as practiced by Alexander Selkirk -the real crusoe- are fairly faithfully documented in the novel)
When all hell Breaks loose- Cody Lundin - alot in that book that I learned the hard way for myself in the last 10 years of enconomic and social collapse in Zimbabwe.

I have Tom Browns  field Guide to wilderness survival - Not particularly impressed- all of the traps, water collecting and shelter etc are direct plagarisms of 'don't die in the Bundu' The 1960's Rhodesian Army book. In fact if you took out every thing that was in 'don't die in the bundu' you wouldn't have much of a book. ..also most of the concepts laid out in DDitB were based on preliminary work by C squadron SAS on wilderness survival- when real war came in the 1970's most of the book was found to be impractical. The Parks Instructors who also trained the selous scouts  in bush survival had all the traps and dead falls set up for us to look at ...and then told us to forget them in the real world, chuck the book and here's the real deal...

[teamnelson]

Couger, I think the older boy scout manuals are great. I add what to do when there's no doctor, what to do when there's no dentist, wild boar on the kitchen floor ... all part of a missionary's library. And for tactical thinking - I'd recommend Tigers Way. Some folks prefer others, I incline to "guerilla" or asymmetrical doctrine for warfighting as it favors the weaker. The key to using the books effectively is teach the content to someone else in a practical setting. Seriously, read a chapter then teach your family, and you will know it far better than just having read them.

And I put everything to the test as best I can. Take it to the field, not just the range.

[SHOOTALL]

To be a man in the Masai tribe you have to kill a lion, only then can you marry, own property, vote, etc. They do this with a spear; happens all the time. And as one of my Masai friends once explained to me, its not thrown from a distance - its up close and personal.

If this post-apocalyptic world we drag our one rifle into is going to be anything, its going to be up close and personal. No sleep, likely sick & hungry, probably at least a headache and bubbleguts - never mind limited duty due to a sprain or break, and keyed up on fear. Each round expended becomes more valuable the fewer you have. Lets leave out the weapon - how accurate do you suppose YOU will be much past 100 yds in those conditions, if that far? I anticipate more encounters inside 10yds (typical combat range) than further.

Some other things to consider: Is your rifle set up for ambidextrous operation? Can you fire it ambidextrously? Do you have backup irons for the optics? Can you remove the optics without tools, or do you carry the appropriate tool with you? Are the irons sighted in, most likely to 50yds? Have you practiced slow fire on your semi, feeding one round at a time into the chamber through the port? I don't think you can ORM your choices too much.

You make a good case for a shotgun , or maybe a combo gun 

[don heath]

Couple of points...a .357 is not 'adequate for lion' ...but nor is a .44 really and all that really counts when he is on top of you is a hit to the CNS, so far better a .357 on the hip and a .454 in the truck. I actually carried a M58 (.41 mag) for my whole parks career and only switched over to .44 when the 329 became available.

I know first hand how dificult it is to hit a moving man in rough country and open brush at 50 yards...even when you can break clays at the 16 yard line with a rifle it suddenly becomes a whole lot more difficult with adrenaline pumping and noise and incomming fire. 

And here is the problem for the survivalist. The handgun is given - and it needs to be something effective, but after that...for people, from a fixed position, I want a rifle, preferably in .308 or bigger but will settle for .223.

If I am in the open or town and moving, I want my shotgun, but the second you are run to earth...I want my rifle back! And it is hard to carry both rifle and shotgun when on foot. Easy enough on a bike but on foot? The weight adds up too quickly especially shotgun ammo. 

[mannyrock]

 
  If you can stand the weight:  a .357 magnum revolver with a 4 inch barrel in stainless, plus a Marlin lever action in .357 magnum with two packs of spare parts.

   Is the round too weak in a rifle??  At 200 yards, coming out of a rifle, the round still has more foot pounds of power than a .38 special fired at point blank range.

  Another viable option:  a .357 mag revolver, plus a lightweight bolt action .223, with synthetic stock, steel  mounts and a first rate 3 power scope.  Add to this a chamber insert, to fire .22 lr from the rifle, and you are done.
 
 Just my thoughts.

[teamnelson]

  If you can stand the weight:  a .357 magnum revolver with a 4 inch barrel in stainless, plus a Marlin lever action in .357 magnum with two packs of spare parts.

   Is the round too weak in a rifle??  At 200 yards, coming out of a rifle, the round still has more foot pounds of power than a .38 special fired at point blank range.

  Another viable option:  a .357 mag revolver, plus a lightweight bolt action .223, with synthetic stock, steel  mounts and a first rate 3 power scope.  Add to this a chamber insert, to fire .22 lr from the rifle, and you are done.
 
 Just my thoughts.

Good options! (since that's how I'm set up  )

[Swampman]

A handgun is useless weight.

[teamnelson]

A handgun is useless weight.

... until you don't have one. And I can think of about 100 ways I might lose my long gun in the swamp. But to each his own 

[gypsyman]

Swampman, kinda hard to wait on customers in the carry-out business, carrying a long gun. Probably would spook the customers some too. But, a Model 27 with a 3 1/2'' barrel, or a security-six with a 2 3/4'', stuck in the back pocket, with your shirt pulled out, gives a nice feeling of security. Never had to use one, but just the sight of one, changed a couple attitude's years back. gypsyman

[tacklebury]

Books?   Shifts and expedients of camp life and travel.  Bains & Lord
Robinon crusoe (just reading it to my daughter...the practicalities of making do with very little as practiced by Alexander Selkirk -the real crusoe- are fairly faithfully documented in the novel) When all hell Breaks loose- Cody Lundin - alot in that book that I learned the hard way for myself in the last 10 years of enconomic and social collapse in Zimbabwe.

...chuck the book and here's the real deal...

I have no idea where he got the information, but it's good information nonetheless.  I've tested many of the things in these books in real situations too.  Also, his plant book is for N.America, which makes more sense than Rhodesia for me, since I live in N. America and the plants are different.  I have read many other authors also, but in Tom's 3 books I get good info and can use it as a reference and do.  I've read Robinson Crusoe in several versions also.  Excellent book, but relying on that in N. America, except possibly some of the deep south, will gain you very little.  I also reference my own experience as an Army Infantry soldier and my training in wilderness survival.  I also have a copy of the Army's guide to improvised munitions and a few others in my portable library.  The books also protect some Frensal lenses, which are more easily broken, thus serving double duty. 

[45-70.gov]

A handgun is useless weight.

if you can't shoot one.....hahaha

[SHOOTALL]

A handgun is useless weight.

if you can't shoot one.....hahaha

Once read an article from a man that did security work all over the world. He always used 2 Browning HP's as ammo was aval. world wide . The exception was South America where 2 44 mag revolvers were with him always. He used machine guns and rifles but he always had the handguns on him . The 44's were because he was in many jungle camps and had at times had to leave post haste with only what he had on him. I would say the weight of the handgun is comforting