Author Topic: one rifle? (Read 17707 times)

Swampman · « **Reply #60 on:** February 06, 2009, 10:46:10 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on February 06, 2009, 09:55:38 AM

How long do military weapons need to work? how often do they get serviced ?

The M4/M-16A2 rifle must be serviced at least daily to keep it running.

In a SHTF situation you won't be able to turn your broken semi-auto, in and be issued a new one at the expense of Uncle Sam. IMO Uncle Sam might be the one you're trying to avoid.

The .308 kicks too much, and the ammo is bulky/heavy.

Lately I've been thinking about the Remington 799 in .223, with a couple of .22LR adapters. I wish it had open sights even though I never use sights.

teamnelson · « **Reply #61 on:** February 06, 2009, 12:54:25 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on February 06, 2009, 10:46:10 AM

IMO Uncle Sam might be the one you're trying to avoid.

+1. after two Marine infantry tours in Iraq, I just traded off an armalite m15. Granted its a seller's market right now, but I wouldn't want my loved ones relying on that platform in an emergency.

jmayton · « **Reply #62 on:** February 08, 2009, 10:02:54 AM »

Sounds like you guys have had bad luck with the AR platform. I have a Colt LE6920 and it runs dry, oiled, clean, dirty...doesn't matter. It runs. It's light...it's accurate. If I was forced to have only one gun, that'd be it, so it's what I would take in a survival situation. But that's me and I'd be ok with something else....just not if the Colt was available. BTW, I'm not trashing any other brand of AR, I just happen to have a Colt and I know it works...I have a friend with two DPMS' and they run just fine too.

ironglow · « **Reply #63 on:** February 08, 2009, 11:47:29 AM »

Teamnelson;
I am surprised to hear you had any negative experiences with your M16. Perhaps you should have looked to your unit armorer rather than to condemn the M16.
My grandson (Marine sgt, MOS armorer) has completed 2 deployments in Iraq with a Special Ops unit, and is a vocal proponent of the M16A2 series. He gained a reputation with machine guns particularly, but still considered the M16A2 as one of the 2 or 3 premier infantry weapons..far ahead of the AKs. Today, he is one of the 3 or 4 NCOs that run the armory at Parris Island..18,000 M16s, and he still likes the marque. First deployment, he did not operate out of a repair shop, but fixed weapons on the run and often under fire
While in the sandbox, for house-to-house activities he preferred the M16A4 or the Mossberg 500..in the more open areas it was the M16A2.
He does say that keeping the weapon clean is important, since it is more precision made than the AKs; but the trade off is an accurate weapon, instead of the AK's "spray & pray" accuracy. The main reason sand doesn't clog the AKs quite so quickly is the very sloppy tolerances involved.
Since he was one of two men who were their unit's designated snipers when such work was required, he built up his own rifle for that purpose..selecting each component part and using a longer (I expect special mfg) barrel , along with a monopod and flash hider etc.
He believes that most problems could be avoided with proper tuning and needed repairs by the armorer along with proper maintenance by the user in the field.
Some stories about the weapon system are from the Vietnam era, when a penny-pinching Pentagon and stubborn Army generals caused
such bad incidents..and there were many..back then..

Swampman · « **Reply #64 on:** February 08, 2009, 02:15:08 PM »

Quote from: jmayton on February 08, 2009, 10:02:54 AM

Sounds like you guys have had bad luck with the AR platform. I have a Colt LE6920 and it runs dry, oiled, clean, dirty...doesn't matter. It runs. It's light...it's accurate. If I was forced to have only one gun, that'd be it, so it's what I would take in a survival situation. But that's me and I'd be ok with something else....just not if the Colt was available. BTW, I'm not trashing any other brand of AR, I just happen to have a Colt and I know it works...I have a friend with two DPMS' and they run just fine too.

Mine was a Colt (Target Sporter) AR15-A2. I hate the AK.

teamnelson · « **Reply #65 on:** February 08, 2009, 02:57:36 PM »

Ironglow,

As a "tuned" "well-maintained" "with Armorer support" platform, the AR is sufficient for our nation's military needs. The reason I bought an AR was because it is a very accurate weapon when tuned and I tuned mine, and I feel sufficiently confident in my own abilities to support it that it met my shooting objectives for the time I had it. I don't hate the AR platform at all, and have been issued one for over 20 years now. Your son's experience rings true; many thanks for his service by the way, what unit was he with - if he was there 2006-2008 we may have crossed paths.

The topic here though is survival, specifically a single person and one rifle and no support - I may have mentally added EOTWAWKI in my replies. Not military operations, not in a unit supported environment, not a well trained professional fighting force with dedicated time for cleaning, since things like food, water, shelter, medical care, etc. are all provided. In this scenario, the ARs and AKs will not fare well in the hands of most of the folks who own them because they will not be cleaned well or often - armorer support and parts probably won't be readily available. And they'll be doing most of the important work during the 12 hours of daylight to preserve what precious fuel/energy they have, things like solving the questions of food, water, medical care, sewing, cleaning, maybe sleeping since you travel mostly at night perhaps if you travel at all. All of those other things will take a disproportionately longer amount of time than at home - especially figuring out how to keep food from spoiling. There's no safe perimeter so you need to be in condition 1 most all the time, so a thorough take down and cleaning will seldom if ever happen. The list is huge, and most days you can count on being too tired, hungry, or sick to do everything well.

Survival to me is a mindset predicated on taking nothing for granted: expect nothing, leverage everything. And if you're a husband/father, the first assumption you should make in your survival plan is that YOU are dead. So if any of the survival gear requires my presence to be effective, then its no longer the right piece of gear. Your son may have learned how to be an armorer from his Mom in which case keep an AR (and I'm jealous). The next oldest man in my house is 13, and he's the youngest, so the AR had to go. If I am gone, he needs a primary long gun that is an extension of him and he can grab on his way out the door with no expectation of ever getting new parts, or proper maintenance support. Same for my wife and daughter.

S/F,
Chaps

Oldshooter · « **Reply #66 on:** February 08, 2009, 03:09:05 PM »

I love the reading here!

Much better than TV

I like a lever gun but a bolt is the most dependable 308 is my prefered rifle caliber

ironglow · « **Reply #67 on:** February 08, 2009, 03:17:10 PM »

Teamnelson;
I assume you were talking to me (Ironglow not longbow)..no matter though ... My grandson was with the 22nd MEU (Spec Ops capable) for first deployment, Al Anbar prov of course (2005-06). Then provisional MP at Al Asad (07-08) rooting out terrorists that were continually trying to get in, or send mortars etc "inside the wire". When I asked him about M16 vs AK.. he said he would rather have one M16 in place of 3 AKs. Of course, as Spec Ops, he was out there , travelling light ..at night and even doing his armorer work on the fly.

I'm an old guy, so my latest military rifle was the M14..which (oh heresy) preferred over the M1, having used both. Sometimes I wonder if auto or even semi-auto is important for survival. A good bolt like my #11 Savage in .223 would be able to collect any game species in my area and do it accurately and especially dependably. In the event the mentioned "civilian security force' or 'brownshirts" try hunting we gun owners through the woods..using camoflage and concealment (even a ghillie net)..and we could soon have a semi or full auto weapon.."liberated" from a brownshirt..

bilmac · « **Reply #68 on:** February 08, 2009, 06:09:32 PM »

I wonder how many guys have thought about a few supplies to maintain their guns in their bug out bag. I used to store some with my ammo. Didn't take much room because I made a pull through instead of including a cleaning rod. If you want to include a solvent be sure it has a good seal, this stuff is hard to corral, and if it gets into your ammo, it will kill it.

teamnelson · « **Reply #69 on:** February 08, 2009, 09:40:11 PM »

Bilmac, good point. I keep my boresnake in a round tin with a small vial of clp. If it leaks it's on the snake.

+1 for using a 223 with a 22 adapter.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #70 on:** February 09, 2009, 02:34:28 AM »

I still like the 308 with a 30 carbine adapter . Cleaning kit is great idea as is a parts kit

mannyrock · « **Reply #71 on:** February 09, 2009, 03:54:41 AM »

Guys,

When you are talking about .22 and .30 carbine "adaptors", are you talking about actual chamber inserts (which require a broken case extractor to remove), or are you talking about those single pseudo-shell contraptions, which you unscrew, insert the smaller round within, and then fire in your rifle?

Mannyrock

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #72 on:** February 09, 2009, 06:55:03 AM »

The ones i was talking about look like a cart. that the smaller round fits into . the ones that are fixed into the bbl maybe better . I saw one for a 7.62x39 that you put into a 308 that takes a broken case extractor to remove . in a situation where your rifle could be tied up needing more than removing adapter by cycling the bolt might not be a good idea .

teamnelson · « **Reply #73 on:** February 09, 2009, 07:31:06 AM »

I've used the adapters from MCA sports: http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm in a T/C Contender and an Encore, and they extracted like a regular round. Keep an adapted .22 in the buttcuff for that rabbit of opportunity.

jmayton · « **Reply #74 on:** February 09, 2009, 08:35:49 AM »

Ironglow, I think in a contemporary survival situation, a semi-auto would be a plus over a bolt gun. Just given the fact that survival nowadays would mean more than just using a firearm for hunting but would also include self-defense. But, if it comes to that, whatever you have and feel confident in will have to do.

Freezer · « **Reply #75 on:** February 14, 2009, 02:50:42 AM »

I'm taking this back the other direction. In a survival situation hunting is an inefficient means of gathering food. Trapping is far better. Depending on the weather hunting and harvesting large game can present spoilage/waste and transportation problems. Getting into a fire fight in a rural area with no or few neighbors and little tactical value seems like a stretch. I would want to band together with my neighbors to pool resources and labor. Another thought is one good sniper can demoralize an army.
I don't think a second shot is necessary or advisable in a survival situation. A second shot is a waste of ammo, make the first shot count. Second if your trying not to let people know where you are a second or third shot is a beacon to your location.
That said what I see missing is a 308 and a 223. .223 is great for harvesting small game and ground hog can be as good table fair as rabbit. 308 is easy to come by and very versatile. On a limited budget I'd opt for a NEF Handi rifle though I consider the T/C Encore far better. He already has a .44 handgun for emergency use. These single shot rifles have a multitude of calibers that can be fitted to it including .223, 308 and 30-06 not to mention 45-70 (45 caliber/70gr black powder). You could also choose a muzzle loading barrel and any number of shotgun barrels. For an extended hunting trek you could pack one frame two or three barrels, your .44 revolver and be ready for anything. The simplicity of the gun aids in maintenance and in a pinch most parts can be made with a file. IMHO that's what a survival gun should be. Uncomplicated, easy to maintain, reliable, repairable and versatile.
By the way an inexpensive single shot .22 is also a good idea. Small game and birds can be taken with it. In my mind if I know I only have one shot I tend to shoot better. Ammo is cheap plentiful and easy to carry.
If you reload the .44 rifle/pistol is a great combo. A Lee hand held loader and cast bullet mold will take you a long way. In a pinch these can be loaded with black powder also. The only thing better as I see it would be .454 because you could load one lead bullet in everything from .45 revolver to 45-70 rifle. JMHO

Swampman · « **Reply #76 on:** February 14, 2009, 03:11:54 AM »

Quote from: jmayton on February 09, 2009, 08:35:49 AM

Ironglow, I think in a contemporary survival situation, a semi-auto would be a plus over a bolt gun. Just given the fact that survival nowadays would mean more than just using a firearm for hunting but would also include self-defense. But, if it comes to that, whatever you have and feel confident in will have to do.

I'd never trust anything important to a semi-auto. Even with an AR-15 or an AK, you'll be underguned.

Singleshotsam · « **Reply #77 on:** February 14, 2009, 04:04:11 AM »

Well my pick goes to a 20" AR15 DMR style rifle. A2 stock, full length quad rail, flattop receiver, bipod, a 2-7 scope and about 10 or 15 magpul mags in my bug out bag, vaccum sealed and ready to rock. Enough velocity for long range shots out to 500-600 yards w/ heavy bullets and can be used close in w/ the scope on a low power setting.

jmayton · « **Reply #78 on:** February 14, 2009, 12:30:04 PM »

There ya go. It's what I'd take.

Swampman · « **Reply #79 on:** February 14, 2009, 03:03:47 PM »

The more complicated the weapon, the greater the likelyhood that it will fail. The AR/M-16 platform requires way to much servicing to keep it running except in a range type environment. The U.S. Military can barely keep it running.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #80 on:** February 14, 2009, 03:24:33 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on February 14, 2009, 03:03:47 PM

The more complicated the weapon, the greater the likelyhood that it will fail. The AR/M-16 platform requires way to much servicing to keep it running except in a range type environment. The U.S. Military can barely keep it running.

I must be a mechanical genius, I have no trouble keeping my AR running, while dragging it through the woods in all weather conditions.

Cheese

Swampman · « **Reply #81 on:** February 14, 2009, 04:11:52 PM »

Bury it in the mud or sand and try it.

mechanic · « **Reply #82 on:** February 14, 2009, 04:21:31 PM »

In deference to Swampman's post, how many rifles have a bullet seater on them? How many need one? There is no doubt that the AR or M16 variants need more maintenance than say, the AK or SKS. My old SKS may not be as accurate as an AR, but while you stop to clean or clear a jam, I can keep on shooting. Personally, I still like my singles shots and bolts. The singles best of all. I may not can spray and pray, but they get the job done.

Under close quarters fire, give me a shotgun any day.

A man's choice of gun is a personal thing. Some folks like Chevy, some Ford...you know the drill. Use what you have confidence in, but know its limitations. And all have limitations.

teamnelson · « **Reply #83 on:** February 14, 2009, 06:18:17 PM »

Are we on a survival thread? As in no more gun, tool stores, parts, solvents, manufacturers, Internet, UPS?

Largest supply chain in the world couldn't keep the largest AR user base in the world at even 90%. Do you have enough supplies for years or generations?

Trying cleaning that AR with dial, lubing it with used motor oil and using a paper clip for a magazine spring. Try straightening out the buffer tube you bent in a fall with a leatherman, or the gas tube.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #84 on:** February 14, 2009, 07:21:49 PM »

All guns will wear out and break, all of them.

Cheese

teamnelson · « **Reply #85 on:** February 14, 2009, 08:45:13 PM »

Cheesehead, my personal experience has been that ARs wear out sooner than a single-shot or even bolt rifle, but like all good survivalists, I am willing to learn new things. What have you found to be the best way to maintain your AR? For someone who was going to rely on an AR in an EOTWAWKI situation, what would you recommend they keep on hand, and how much? If those items ran out, are there any home made alternatives? Since a lot of ARs are an amalgam of parts from different vendors, is there a particular mix you'd recommend that seems less finicky than others? (i.e. DPMS upper on a ? lower?) I'm also concerned about ammo - if I ran out of my pet load and had to scavenge, would there be any limitations - like would I need to be careful that I had a 5.56 vs 223 barrel, and which loads have you found don't have enough oomph to cycle the action reliably? Have you found your optics to lose their zero after a typical day getting knocked around in the woods? Seems like we had to constantly rezero in Iraq. And what have you found to be the best way to get children and non-outdoorsy folks how to operate and maintain the AR? My wife didn't like my m15 but she's figured out the Stevens breech loader.

Also, anybody want to comment on the marksmanship values associated with choosing a semi over a single or bolt? I see sig blocks talking about the value of one well placed shot - will that go out the window when I'm facing starvation and my physical health is affecting my accuracy? Will I rely more on my magazine than my marksmanship? Is there something to the notion that the man with only one shot will do better with it?

I know these are detailed questions, but I guess I figure its better to ask them now than assume I know all I need to get through an uncertain future. War and living in a 3rd world so far has been a good teacher that I don't know near as much I should.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #86 on:** February 15, 2009, 01:43:03 AM »

Quote from: Cheesehead on January 12, 2009, 11:47:43 AM

308 bolt or single shot.

Cheese

This is my origanal post. Since then the locking bolt on my Encore rifle broke. You will not find that part at the local hardware store. The 308 Encore rifle will not function with out it. I have fired about 100 rounds through the Encore before this failure occurred. My AR has many more rounds through it, flawless performance. Just like many people, I base my decisions on personal experience. I do not plan on burying my AR in the sand or mud, or my Encore after I fix it.

Cheese

jmayton · « **Reply #87 on:** February 15, 2009, 02:11:12 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on February 14, 2009, 04:11:52 PM

Bury it in the mud or sand and try it.

You bury your guns in mud or sand? I keep mine in a safe.

Swampman · « **Reply #88 on:** February 15, 2009, 03:07:08 AM »

Quote

This is my origanal post. Since then the locking bolt on my Encore rifle broke. You will not find that part at the local hardware store. The 308 Encore rifle will not function with out it.

You should have bought a Handi Rifle. You need to develop the proper Survival & Self Sustainability mindset. You don't have it.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #89 on:** February 15, 2009, 04:56:01 AM »

Question? What kind of survival situation are you all talking about? There are different answers depending on the situation you are planning for. If you are planning for a great depression you will want something cheap and reliable. My father brought home a lot of rabbits and squirrels with a single shot 22. His dad or mom would give him a bullet and say make this count. A box of 22 lr would last a long time. If you are talking about living off the grid in Canada and Alaska you need something that will see you through a winter. You would do well with an utterly simple very dependable firearm. Your choice of firearms depends on what you anticipate shooting and whether you are planning to stay put or to move around. If you plan on moving then you need to decide if you are moving by vehicle, by horse or on foot. If you are moving on foot, as somebody who has carried a pack I can tell you every ounce counts. You aren't moving 10,000 rounds of every conceivable kind of ammunition in your back pack. If you take a gun at all it needs to be light and dependable with light but potent ammunition. The 357 mag comes to mind.

A lot of discussions like this one sound like people romanticizing instead of looking long and hard at the situation. Never forget a gun is just a small part of your survival kit. The most important tool is the one between your ears. Survival skills are far more important than survival gear.