Author Topic: one rifle? (Read 17681 times)

teamnelson · « **Reply #120 on:** July 28, 2010, 01:01:56 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on July 28, 2010, 12:25:24 PM

Semi-autos have no place in a survival situation.

Well yeah, I would tend to agree with that. But alot of folks want a semi don't they?

gstewart44 · « **Reply #121 on:** July 28, 2010, 02:15:24 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on July 28, 2010, 12:25:24 PM

Semi-autos have no place in a survival situation.

the AK action family of longguns and their users say otherwise. just look at Afghanistan. the AK is the only exception though.

teamnelson · « **Reply #122 on:** July 28, 2010, 03:36:24 PM »

Quote from: gstewart44 on July 28, 2010, 02:15:24 PM

Quote from: Swampman on July 28, 2010, 12:25:24 PM
Semi-autos have no place in a survival situation.
the AK action family of longguns and their users say otherwise. just look at Afghanistan. the AK is the only exception though.

shh ... the prices have just started coming back down. Don't say anything or you'll ruin it!

Anybody else see the video from a South African weapons cache destruction team? Think its on youtube. Guy pulls an AK that's been buried for 17years, rusted, dented, dirty as sin ... pours motor oil on it. Slaps a mag in and fires the entire 30 with no FTF. I'll see if I can find the link.

Swampman · « **Reply #123 on:** July 28, 2010, 03:38:28 PM »

Who would dig up a buried AK?

A war isn't a survival situation.

teamnelson · « **Reply #124 on:** July 28, 2010, 03:51:20 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on July 28, 2010, 03:38:28 PM

A war isn't a survival situation.

Survival is living through a threat, any threat, to one's life. I'd argue that war qualifies, especially since often someone else declares war on you and your only objective is survival. History proves this out.

Swampman · « **Reply #125 on:** July 28, 2010, 04:03:23 PM »

Survival is avoiding conflict & detection. Those who don't will not survive.

teddy12b · « **Reply #126 on:** July 28, 2010, 05:37:36 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on July 28, 2010, 03:38:28 PM

Who would dig up a buried AK?

A war isn't a survival situation.

With all do respect, the hell it ain't. Ever been to one?

I understand your reasoning on saying semi-autos have no place in a conventional (non-war) survival situation, and I'd agree in most cases with the exception being the 10-22 and AK designs. They've pretty much proven that they'll work over time no matter what.

RON17T · « **Reply #127 on:** July 29, 2010, 02:12:32 PM »

How about an sks rifle. Sure there not super accurate but ammo is cheap,they take quite a beating,and you could buy a bunch of them for the price of one AR-15.

Swampman · « **Reply #128 on:** July 29, 2010, 02:22:35 PM »

If the SKS wasn't a semi-auto and very inaccurate it would be a good rifle in a survival situation. In a war everything is provided for you in unlimited quanities and carried by others. It's not a survival situation. Note my signature line.

Don't be a Rambo clone........stay alive.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #129 on:** July 29, 2010, 04:36:14 PM »

I have an SKS that shoots about 4" at 100 yards. Better than an AK I used to have that shot about 8" at 100 yards, many times off the paper.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #130 on:** July 30, 2010, 06:09:54 AM »

Action type is no more important than how it holds up to abuse and tends to not lose parts like mags or clips . Keeping out the way is a choice made by the man not dictated by the gun. Ammo conservation is also a choice of the man not the weapon. If you want an auto loader the SKS might be the best , you can't lose the mag. , its more accurate than the AK and most every thing needed to maintain it is in it but ammo and oil ( which can be gotten off a dipsitck in a wreck if need be.)
A 22 would be great right up until you are forced into a fight . No gun would be best in every situation . But its better to have more than needed than less . That really says nothing new because is more bullets or size of the round ?

gypsyman · « **Reply #131 on:** July 30, 2010, 07:36:48 AM »

I think where your trying to survive, has alot to do with what kind of rifle! Swampman living out in the boonies, a bolt or single shot could be just the ticket. If your trying to survive in an urban enviroment, a semi-auto is the way to go.
If all your doing is putting meat on the table,bolt/single shot just fine. If you have gangs of marauders roaming around, I'ld much rather have an AK/SKS/ or AR type firearm. gypsyman

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #132 on:** July 30, 2010, 07:41:25 AM »

With all respect how do you know what you will face ? It like the guy with the 25 acp in his pocket , great choice if never needed

teddy12b · « **Reply #133 on:** July 30, 2010, 08:01:02 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 30, 2010, 07:41:25 AM

With all respect how do you know what you will face ?

+1

That's why I'm on the semi auto band wagon. Modern day semi autos are far better than what used to be on the market. The old days of a hit or miss 740 or 7400 have been replaced with refined AR's, Saiga AK's for $350, DPMS 308's, or any other good options that's out there. There's a lot of choices out there that are good quality pieces. I'm not trying to take anything away from levers, bolts, or single shots, but I'm not ready to through semi's out of the picture yet because they have more parts. I mostly hunt with lever actions, I mostly target shoot with bolt actions, and I mostly prepare for the worst with my semi autos. They all have a place and it's up to us to decide what's best for our individual situation.

For me, I'm east of the mississippi and surrounded by corn. If I had to pick one, it'd probably be an AR or a 10-22. If I would out west, it'd be a different story.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #134 on:** July 30, 2010, 08:07:50 AM »

I used to be that way but this comming year I hope to hunt with an AR to see for real how it holds up and works for me . Used a M1-A socom last year with good result . When the black bear came by ( out of season ) or the Mt Lion 3 times now ( protected ) a 22 would not have given the comfort either of those would. But then I wear belt and suspenders sometimes .

Swampman · « **Reply #135 on:** July 30, 2010, 09:30:52 AM »

Whatever.......having owned an M1A, several M1 Garrands, Colt AR-15s, several Mini-14s, Mini-30, SKS, M1 Carbine, and a slew of other semis I have no faith in them. I work on them for others and I'm very unimpressed. Even those issued to me by Uncle Sam gave trouble. If you have a professional armorer and several parts sets in your ruck sack plus a government supply system to keep them running they are ok..

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #136 on:** July 30, 2010, 11:26:41 AM »

That's true enough but I have seen bolt handles fall off , fireing pins break. sporter stocks fail etc etc no gun is fail safe

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #137 on:** July 30, 2010, 02:57:38 PM »

Even a semi-auto, if it fails to fire semi, you can always fire it like a bolt action one at a time. Shouldn't fail if you keep it clean. I have an L1A1 that is very simple to take down and clean.

RON17T · « **Reply #138 on:** July 30, 2010, 07:00:04 PM »

I'm still sold on the sks.You can load up a bunch of stripper clips,put a sling on it,and add a blade bayonet and it'll work for almost any survival need. They take loads of abuse,are accurate enough to hunt with,can kill off a bunch of people coming to attack you.The bayonet would come in useful and if it jams up it's hevy enough to be a good club.

bilmac · « **Reply #139 on:** July 30, 2010, 07:33:33 PM »

Playing Rambo is a good way to get dead. We are hunters are we not? Hunters make do with aimed shots that count. Fire one shot and move,and it will be hard to figure out where you are. Fire two and someone has a much better chance of locating you. They say that 22 rimfires fired just one shot at a time in an urban environment are very difficult to locate.

teddy12b · « **Reply #140 on:** August 01, 2010, 04:20:39 PM »

Quote from: bilmac on July 30, 2010, 07:33:33 PM

Playing Rambo is a good way to get dead. We are hunters are we not? Hunters make do with aimed shots that count. Fire one shot and move,and it will be hard to figure out where you are. Fire two and someone has a much better chance of locating you. They say that 22 rimfires fired just one shot at a time in an urban environment are very difficult to locate.

If SHTF the Rambo guys will get eaten up buy the crowds. I take the approach that if I need to fire more than one shot I'd be better off not shooting, but that doesn't mean I don't want my rifle to be able to do that if need be. I don't think there's a perfect answer to this, but the disscusion does bring up a lot of good points.

Swampman · « **Reply #141 on:** August 01, 2010, 04:41:23 PM »

Quote from: bilmac on July 30, 2010, 07:33:33 PM

Playing Rambo is a good way to get dead. We are hunters are we not? Hunters make do with aimed shots that count. Fire one shot and move,and it will be hard to figure out where you are. Fire two and someone has a much better chance of locating you. They say that 22 rimfires fired just one shot at a time in an urban environment are very difficult to locate.

Excellent post

don heath · « **Reply #142 on:** August 02, 2010, 01:32:26 AM »

2 points...Having been a forensic police examiner for 20 od dyears in Africa, I have seen all sorts of 'old rifles' that have been burried, dug up and had to try to fire them to see if they matched any outstanding crimes.

An SKS is fairly junk if not well cared for...like the F.N. FAL..like the AR 15. The German G3's were the worst and the AK 47 (not AKM) and lee enfields were the best...but, the AK's reliability comes at a price. it is a very violent action and the gun was not built to survive thousands of rounds. The AK 47's of Russian/east German and Checz manufacture usually do- they are 10,000 guns. The chinese and North Korean AKM's are 2000 rnd guns. One of the principal advantages of the mil spec AR 15's is the chomed bore and aluminium carrier. They survive neglect. The down side...M16's don't like sand.

Only very well trained folk conserve ammo in a fire fight - unless their weapon system slows them down. Parks and Vet scouts and even the police in the early years of our first bush war carried Lee enfields. Average 7 rounds per communist killed. When we switched over to G3's and FAL's we used 430rnds per kill...and the second line units in the army were worse!

RON17T · « **Reply #143 on:** August 02, 2010, 04:22:54 PM »

If we're talking about a stuck in the woods survival situation a single shot or bolt action is fine. If we are talking about a situation where you might have to defend yourself against someone trying to do you harm or take your supplies you need semi-auto. I'm not talking about starting a war,but what if there is more than 1 person you have to defend against? Given the choice I'll deal with a semi-autos occasional problems.

Casull · « **Reply #144 on:** August 02, 2010, 06:09:11 PM »

Quote

If we're talking about a stuck in the woods survival situation a single shot or bolt action is fine. If we are talking about a situation where you might have to defend yourself against someone trying to do you harm or take your supplies you need semi-auto. I'm not talking about starting a war,but what if there is more than 1 person you have to defend against? Given the choice I'll deal with a semi-autos occasional problems.

Tell that to military snipers, who until recently used bolt actions (and were probably the most feared soldiers). If you act like a hunter, you don't need a semi.

bilmac · « **Reply #145 on:** August 02, 2010, 08:13:55 PM »

If you must defend ground then that one thing, I hope I never get in the position where I absolutely must stand and fight. Best chances to save your skin if attacked by multiple assailants is to give ground, retreat. Fire a round, make it count and retreat under cover to a new position and do it again and again until those attacking decide you aren't worth dying for.

don heath · « **Reply #146 on:** August 02, 2010, 08:29:24 PM »

I have Mentioned the story before...An old coloured gentleman runs the mine on our place on 'tribute', and has done so since the 1950's. Being of mixed race meant that the white police reserve wouldn't risk a night ambush going to his assistance when attacked and every passing gook and bandit had a go at him (becasue they could and the 'safety of the Botswana Border was only 7 miles away). He carries an old Ithaca mag 10 (that he got off me). That big shjotgun is a pig to carry but...it puts out alot of No 4 buck pellets every time you pull the trigger.

Jan taught me never to fire more than two shots from any one possition - particularly at night. The first shot told the bad guys where you were and the second gave them time to switch aim...by the time you fired your third round they all had a bead on you...and if they could pin you down they could manouver round and come in the other side of the house (as happened to Martin Olds..killed or fatally wounded 24 out of 100+ attackers but was wounded in the initail attack and couldn't prevent the malitia setting the house on fire and was shot when the flames drove him out into the open). Jan survived more that 50 attacks by gangs ranging from 10 to 50 in number. They seldom left any dead, but there was always blood for us to follow in the morning.

don heath · « **Reply #147 on:** August 02, 2010, 08:44:23 PM »

Secondly, having sustained two bullet wounds in action (one 'friendly fire') I assure you that after being hit ones primary driving force is getting help. If your back is against the wall and you are on the loosing side of the fight, well you keep going because there is no help until you win...if you are the attacker, you shout for medic, morphine and mommy and loose interest in the action.

My fathers 'defence plan' during our war was simple...no cover for 200m around the house. If they shot at us from cover, that was fine...they were too far away to be effective and dad never fired more than one shot from any one possition...and when he did fire, somebody died. They tried once a co-ordinated attack...RPG and 62mm Morter fire supplimenting two machine guns fireing on the front of the house whilst 20 or so tried to rush the back. Dad got both machine gunners and mom let the others reach the fence before opening up with the Browing Auto five...none dead but at least 5 wounded. After that they stuck to trying to get my folks with landmines or ambushhes on the road - but like most Rhodesians we had a 'spider' (multiple barrel 12g) on the roof of each truck and the gooks didn't like to be too close...I own 3 semi auto rifles, an M2 carbine and a BREN LMG...and from experience, a mahinegun set up dominates the battlefield...semi is not much, if any better than a scoped bolt action if the distance is more than 50m and inside 50m or at night a shotgun beats a rifle.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #148 on:** August 03, 2010, 04:57:28 AM »

Don, in America, one can't get a machine gun, only semi-auto, bolt, lever, or pump. That is why most buy a semi-auto if they are likely to encounter a multiple threat. We also can't buy RPG's etc. Machine guns have been "grandfathered" in our laws. To own one, you must be checked and fingerprinted by the FBI, pay a $200 fee, and buy one from an existing owner. No new ones. Most will agree shotguns and pistols are good up close, but distance you need a good rifle.

jmayton · « **Reply #149 on:** August 03, 2010, 05:49:24 AM »

The truth is, none of us know what type of situation we would find ourselves in if the SHTF. We know what type of tactics we would like to employ, but to assume that things would go as planned is absurd. We can't contol the actions of others so we need to be prepared to be as versatile as possible and our weapon should reflect that. It should be able to take small to medium game and engage multiple targets at short to medium ranges. For me, that's my Colt 6920 wearing a 1-4x scope and back-ups. It isn't perfect, but seems to be the most versatile. If I had the opportunity, I would also carry a 12ga pump and a Glock 22, my wife would carry the AK and and a Glock 17, and my daughter would either have a .22lr semi, or one of the Handi's. The funny thing is, if I didn't take the AR, I would either take the Savage 30-06 or the Handi in .223. And like most of the wisdom in this post, I'd try to avoid a fight as much as possible, but try to be prepared if it did come.