Author Topic: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad? (Read 2347 times)

goater · « **Reply #30 on:** January 15, 2009, 04:52:30 PM »

"We are in deep, but not so deep as to actually think we need any more government intervention to fix, what government invention caused in the first place."

a prudent person would admit that this remains to be seen ... again .. I believe that the current situation is totally unprecedented .... I suspect that many who take your view will soon be whining about 'where is the government'

"cut capital gains taxes to zero"

this is a constant mantra of spear carriers for the wealthy ... realize that there needs to be a differentiation about the source of the capital gains ... what if someone realizes capital gains from an investment in the Korean stock market???

Why should someone pay ZERO taxes from investments in other countries .... while working Americans pay income tax on earned income from their labor ... please have the intellect to realize that knee jerk responses (cut capital gains taxes to zero) need to be analyzed instead being of knee jerk mantras

billy_56081 · « **Reply #31 on:** January 15, 2009, 05:01:03 PM »

Anyone who calls for more taxes is nothing but a thief. Why do you liberals want to steal money from people who have earned it? Well I'd say something about your morals, but after the liberal slant on the abortion issue it is obvious that liberals have zero morals.

goater · « **Reply #32 on:** January 15, 2009, 05:10:14 PM »

I've found this web site to be a credible source of info ... this post voices some of the concerns that I have voiced

http://www.minyanville.com/articles/Roubini-PIMCO-EL-cnbc-Erian/index/a/20679

jimster · « **Reply #33 on:** January 16, 2009, 12:16:12 AM »

I don't use the internet for what is morally right or wrong...

Our money is our money, the government does not have any of it's own money, and stealing it from the wealthy or poor or in between and abusing where it goes, is still stealing. If I own a couple of buildings I worked hard for, and want to sell them...that money should be mostly mine...or I WON"T sell them till the money is mine....I'll sit on those buildings and no money will circulate....my choice.

I do not agree with "Vinny" in your article....he is wrong and seems to not know math very well. But his opinion is welcome of course. He would probably make a good congressman thinking that government is the answer, instead of admitting they are the problem. Vote for him if he runs if you like. He will be in good company.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #34 on:** January 16, 2009, 01:59:20 AM »

So Goater, stealing from others is not wrong to you?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #35 on:** January 16, 2009, 02:34:38 AM »

GOATER , with your BS ideas on capital gains maybe you can explain how non Americans get TAX exempt status for 7-8 years when they open a business in America ( which is transferable if sold to another non American ) !
Hare's a one liner - the whole system is corrupted !

goater · « **Reply #36 on:** January 16, 2009, 04:23:22 AM »

"GOATER , with your BS ideas on capital gains maybe you can explain how non Americans get TAX exempt status for 7-8 years when they open a business in America ( which is transferable if sold to another non American ) !"

It's very disingenous to answer a question with a question.

Again ... what kind of loony toon would suggest that someone who made one million dollars by investing in a Russian pipeline should pay ZERO tax on that income while Joe the Plumber pays 25% on his income from fixing toilets?

?

"Anyone who calls for more taxes is nothing but a thief."

yes ... let's cut taxes ... privatize police and fire services ...you need to pay for protection ... why should I pay for roads that I don't use? ... let's sell off our existing highways and make them all toll roads

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #37 on:** January 16, 2009, 04:43:34 AM »

Goater , I fix toilets and wish i paid 25% in taxes .
If you want to bring in capital to invest then offshore might be a place to start . The ? i ask was along that thought IE; if you allow non Americans to bring in foreigner capital and invest it tax free why hit Americans with a tax when they do the same ? do you support a double standard ? Do you support the robin hood method of govt. ?

goater · « **Reply #38 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:02:51 AM »

"Goater , I fix toilets and wish i paid 25% in taxes .
If you want to bring in capital to invest then offshore might be a place to start . The ? i ask was along that thought IE; if you allow non Americans to bring in foreigner capital and invest it tax free why hit Americans with a tax when they do the same ? do you support a double standard ? Do you support the robin hood method of govt. ? "

I'm not suggesting that any investment should be limited, but income is income and should be taxed or the tax reduced if it serves the interest of all Americans. One more time ... why should an American citizen who invests his money in a Russian pipeline (instead of investing in America) be permitted to avoid being taxed on that income, whiled earned income (as compared to capital gains) is taxed at the given percentage.

That stated purpose for reduced capital gains taxes is to stimulate investment for the good of America. I support this end but insist that a distinction needs to be made between money invested in America and American money that gets invested in other countries. That's why it seems stupid to me to maket a blanket statement about "not taxing capital gains"

Gary G · « **Reply #39 on:** January 16, 2009, 06:37:46 AM »

Quote

One more time ... why should an American citizen who invests his money in a Russian pipeline (instead of investing in America) be permitted to avoid being taxed on that income, whiled earned income (as compared to capital gains) is taxed at the given percentage.

I have been thinking about this Goater. Let me see now, if I invest in a Russian Pipeline and let's say I make a lot of money from this, then what I make is wealth that is brought to America, spent in America buying goods from American businesses or becoming savings in America, which becomes loanable funds for American businesses. Now, we can tax that and the tax becomes a distribution from those things that I would direct my new wealth to some favorite government project that they choose (probably influenced by lobbyist).

Facts about taxes:
1. Some taxes are necessary to provide for the common good (police and military to protect citizens from aggression, etc.)

2. All taxes are regressive in that they take away wealth that would otherwise be spent on consumer goods or saved becoming loanable funds for capital expansion.

3. All taxes are a redistribution of wealth from the people or businesses to those that the government so chooses.

jimster · « **Reply #40 on:** January 16, 2009, 01:45:06 PM »

Well, one thing is for sure, you can't beat math, or make math go away, or hope things turn out good regardless of the the math because you "hope" it will.
Our government is doing the exact opposite it should be doing according to the math. The reason...lots of them, corruption and politics, and no long term vision, and of course them thinking all those billions of our tax dollars are somehow theirs. You can't beat the math....there is no such thing as spending your way out of debt, in your home, or in government. We now even have people in congress telling people to spend. They print and give the banks money against the people's will, then the banks try to be more careful and get chewed out for not lending it freely, exactly why we are in this mess in the first place. Can you believe it? No lessons learned, all knee jerk reactions to appease the people so they can get elected again.
What should happen is we all spend our own money, we can jump start this economy by ourselves, if they would just stop taking all our money from us.
An here in Michigan we have been beat to death with taxes at both state and federal levels to the point where all jobs are almost gone, and guess what...they are raising our property taxes again...cause they need money to spend. Insanity....and just plain wrong. Government is the problem, they are not the answer, especially when they do not follow any logic at all, or pay attention to the math. Even the IRS reports the most money the government receives is when taxes are cut...of course...because it circulates, from us. They try to take it...does not work so well, so they print, borrow and spend.
These are the people that run our country...no common sense, no math skills, and add to that corruption from wallowing in billions of dollars of our money, and we really don't have a chance. The United States is at least half full of people who actually believe their crap and can't think for themselves. Where is the math in all this madness? The entire universe is based on math but nobody in congress can use a calculator....just us dummies.
The news is on now...some idiot is talking about "government creating jobs"....like it's actually possible for a government to create jobs in a private sector or something....we are totally surrounded by idiots who actually believe this stuff.

We are in for one rough ride this time....

goater · « **Reply #41 on:** January 16, 2009, 02:10:12 PM »

"I have been thinking about this Goater. Let me see now, if I invest in a Russian Pipeline and let's say I make a lot of money from this, then what I make is wealth that is brought to America, spent in America buying goods from American businesses or becoming savings in America, which becomes loanable funds for American businesses. Now, we can tax that and the tax becomes a distribution from those things that I would direct my new wealth to some favorite government project that they choose (probably influenced by lobbyist).

Facts about taxes:
1. Some taxes are necessary to provide for the common good (police and military to protect citizens from aggression, etc.)

2. All taxes are regressive in that they take away wealth that would otherwise be spent on consumer goods or saved becoming loanable funds for capital expansion.

3. All taxes are a redistribution of wealth from the people or businesses to those that the government so chooses. "

You're not getting it. I'm trying to discuss the logic for taxing one type of income at a different rate than another type of income ... you keep trying to discuss taxes in general ... your value judgements about taxes are your business and you are entitled to your opinions

Let me ask ... for the last time .. how do just justfy a zero tax rate on investments in other countries as compared to the tax rate on earned income in this country

Why does Joe the plumber need to pay a greater tax rate on his earned income than someone who invests in another country? Joe the plumber also spends his money in the US and probably a greater percentage in the US that the offshore investor

Gary G · « **Reply #42 on:** January 16, 2009, 04:23:40 PM »

Quote

Why does Joe the plumber need to pay a greater tax rate on his earned income than someone who invests in another country? Joe the plumber also spends his money in the US and probably a greater percentage in the US that the offshore investor

Goater, you are talking about two different kinds of income that are taxed at different rates anyway, so it is difficult debating which is the best to cut without debating the merits of cutting capital gains over ordinary income tax. Cutting the former does increase investment as does cutting the latter, however in different ways.

We can't say that foreign investment is bad. Let's say Joe the plumper does some work for Bill and gets paid $100. Now that $100 was already in the economy.
Now let's say that Joe invests $1000 in a Russian pipeline and makes $100. This $100 is new wealth added to the economy. His original $1000 will be coming home when Joe is ready.

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The best thing government can do is cut spending so that they can cut taxes. That will be real stimulus to the economy. A correction means that the excesses of Fed policy (easy money) are trying to correct back to normal standards. Houses are trying to come back to where they should be, etc, etc. Adding stimulus (like Obama is proposing), that they must take from private hands is like dipping water out of a pond and pouring it back in further up the bank. It will postpone what the market is naturally trying to correct. Like jimster said, the politicians we have in there now are not going to do whats right. Stagflation of the 70's sent the Keynes to the grave; our present politicians like the sugar bowl so much that they have resurrected him.

The Dept of Energy was created by Jimmy Carter in the 70's to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. They have 16000 employees and 440000 contract employees. We are now more dependent on foreign oil than ever. In private industry they would all be fired. In government they have a lifetime job. The government could easily cut spending. I guess votes are more important even as Rome burns.

goater · « **Reply #43 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:53:39 AM »

"We can't say that foreign investment is bad. Let's say Joe the plumper does some work for Bill and gets paid $100. Now that $100 was already in the economy.
Now let's say that Joe invests $1000 in a Russian pipeline and makes $100. This $100 is new wealth added to the economy. His original $1000 will be coming home when Joe is ready."

1) if each put his income (the same income) to work in America why would one pay tax on that income (Joe the plumber) while the other would be entitled to pay ZERO tax on his income (the investor in the Russian pipeline)?

2) If the $1000 was invested in American enterprise, I might accept accept the zero tax scenario, because the $1000 investment could have a ripple effect in the US ... $1000 invested in Russia has no ripple effect in the US except for the income when the investment is cashed out

Gary G · « **Reply #44 on:** January 17, 2009, 04:30:08 AM »

Brian Wilson interviews Lew Rockwell on Bailout Crimes:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/?p=episode&name=2008-12-21_088_bailout_crimes.mp3

goater · « **Reply #45 on:** January 17, 2009, 08:52:07 AM »

"The Dept of Energy was created by Jimmy Carter in the 70's to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. They have 16000 employees and 440000 contract employees. We are now more dependent on foreign oil than ever. In private industry they would all be fired. In government they have a lifetime job. The government could easily cut spending. I guess votes are more important even as Rome burns."

In case you don't geddit ....

Raygun threatened to "kill" Carter's Energy Department ... but he never did ... why??? He had the authority to do so

Because the fed's are hiding a big part of the defense budget in the Energy Department so the costs don't get charged off to the defense budget. Check it out .. Livermore lab and Los Alamos are in the Energy Department ... this is where the nuclear weapons research is done, as well as other exotic weapons research ... all get charged out against Energy

Gary G · « **Reply #46 on:** January 17, 2009, 11:04:30 AM »

Quote

In case you don't geddit

LOL, I think I get it Goater, that is why I have become a Libertarian.

I voted McCain, but bailout finally got to me.
Both major parties are running us into the ground.
Reagan talked a good talk, but like you say, he didn't do the walk. They never do; it is election rhetoric. You seen any "change" yet?

I didn't know Los Alamos was under DOE. Why would congress hide the defense budget? Another good reason to do away with DOE. Not only do they steal our wealth, they then hide it.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #47 on:** January 21, 2009, 08:36:32 AM »

goater , bact to taxing offshore investments , As a pipefitter i can work off shore for 18 mos. and my income is tax free . if my money works off shore why should it be taxed ?

Cabin4 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 26, 2009, 01:54:14 PM »

Why does the USA have the highest corporate and business tax rate in the civilized world?

Why does the USA penelize investment income?

Why won't Obuma propose an increase the corporate tax deduction on capitol projects?

Why won't the USA close it's boarders so illegals will stop stealing US jobs and stop milking our social services?

Why does Obums's porky pig bill have so much money spent on pet projects?

Why does Obuma's porky pig bill have provisions that will force states to increase taxes in 2011?

Why does Obuma's porky pig bill spending plan not fully kick in until 2011?

Why, why , why?

?

billy_56081 · « **Reply #49 on:** February 26, 2009, 02:47:36 PM »

Cabin, you ask why I'll tell ya why. There are too many non ptroducing parasites now living in America. The non producing parasites are now in the majority in America and they are taxing the producers in America to pay there way. BHO and the liberals are nothing but parasitic pests, and the host is getting so infected with these parasites that its health is failing. BHO's plan is to tax the producers even more to appease his parasitic supporters who put him in power.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #50 on:** February 26, 2009, 02:57:37 PM »

Quote from: billy_56081 on February 26, 2009, 02:47:36 PM

Cabin, you ask why I'll tell ya why. There are too many non ptroducing parasites now living in America. The non producing parasites are now in the majority in America and they are taxing the producers in America to pay there way. BHO and the liberals are nothing but parasitic pests, and the host is getting so infected with these parasites that its health is failing. BHO's plan is to tax the producers even more to appease his parasitic supporters who put him in power.

A good high level answer that pin points the larger pervasive problem that the liberal socialist pig troft gobblers casue.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #51 on:** February 26, 2009, 03:08:47 PM »

Why does the USA have the highest corporate and business tax rate in the civilized world?Answer: Becasue the American people don't understand that this incents corporations to off-shore jobs and takes money from the private sector to the government so they can spend the money on non-productive, not reproducing pork projects.

Why does the USA penelize investment income?Answer: Becasue the American people have come to beleive that rich individuals are the enemy. Forget about the fact that rich individuals create jobs by letting loose there money into the free economy spauning invention and repetative producing consumable items.

Why won't Obuma propose an increase the corporate tax deduction on capitol projects?Answer: Because he painted himself into a political corner by demonizing corporations and private business in general. Increasing the deductions would aid business in procureing capitol items such as cars, trucks, buildings, tools, factories, etc.

Why won't the USA close it's boarders so illegals will stop stealing US jobs and stop milking our social services?Answer: Becasue Liberals see illegals as votes.

Why does Obums's porky pig bill have so much money spent on pet projects?Answer: Becasue he and the democrates need to payback the people and special interest that suppoted then in the last election cycle.

Why does Obuma's porky pig bill have provisions that will force states to increase taxes in 2011?Answer: So whichever republican gov runns against him in 2012, will need to expalin why he raised taxes!!

Why does Obuma's porky pig bill spending plan not fully kick in until 2011?Answer: So the economy shows some recovery in 2011 just in time for the 2012 election.

Ignorance, stupidity and pork at it's finest while America rots into a 3rd world socialist low life country.