Author Topic: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?  (Read 2354 times)

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Offline Gary G

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Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« on: January 12, 2009, 01:31:45 AM »
Ludwig von Mises, the great Austrian economist, said this about recessions:
"Government must never try to prop up unsound business situations; it must never bail out or lend to business firms in trouble. Doing this will simply prolong the agony and convert a sharp and quick depression phase into a lingering and chronic disease. The government must never try to prop up wage rates or prices of consumer goods; doing so will prolong and delay infinitely the the completion of the depression-adjustment process; it will cause indefinite and prolonged depression and mass unemployment in the vital goods industries. *The government must not try to inflate again, in order to try to get out of the depression. For even if this reinflation succeeds, it will only sow greater trouble later on. The government must do nothing to encourage consumption, and it must not increase it's expenditures, for this will further increase the social consumption/investment ratio. In fact, cutting the government budget will improve the ratio. What the economy needs is not more consumption spending but more saving, in order to validate some of the excessive investments of the boom."

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From me:
In 1936 Keynes became popular in the United states. Keynes said the the business cycle ends because, for what ever reason, consumers stop spending. His prescription is that government must spend for them, even if results in a deficit. If Keynes was right, then why are factories producing consumer goods (final goods that consumers buy) the last to fall, and capital goods factories (like steel mills) and raw materials the first to fall?

Mises fully expained that the business cycle begins much earlier when banks cause monetary expansion. This would be, in our case, when the federal reserve artificially decreases interest rates and expands money supply. This leads to capital expansion and investment that would not be profitable under normal interest rates. This invariably leads to inflation which later forces interest rates higher, showing up such misalloccations as unprofitable. The ensuing resession is a necessary process of reallocation of misallocated and malinvested resources. Keynes didn't understand this. He did not have available Mises previous work, as it was written in German at the time; Mises was a professor in Vienna, Austria. From there, Mises predicted the American Great Depression, he later wrote of the government interventions that caused it to last so long.

Why is Keynesian economics popular with government? because it tells them to spend and government loves to spend, as long as it is not their money.

If you look at what Mises said above where I put the * , you can easily see that this is exactly what happened in the dot.com recession and what we are having now is that which Mises projected.

There was only one candidate in this past election that understood this, but the American people, being Keynesian indoctrinated by the media, were not ready for him.

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If our national economy is of any interest to you, then you might want to watch this:
http://www.iousathemovie.com/
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Offline phalanx

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 03:33:27 AM »
The answer to that question is easy ,is anything Obama wants to do good ???
Is Obama himself good ??
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 03:58:05 AM »
GOVT. should have stayed out of business . Anything Govt. does at this point with the exception of leaving it alone will only make recovery take longer and cost more . At some point the American people will have to face the fact that Govt. in an effort to be policeman to the world , caretaker of the worlds poor and re-distributer of wealth in our own country ( an effort soley to assure votes ) has in effect pizzed away most of the lower and middle classes wealth or chance to aquire any .
The idea we need change is true , we need to change back to what our country was before all the hand outs , bail outs and PC started .

to ansewer your ? NO , H--l NO ! Our market needs to RIGHT itself not be bribed into a false economy !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Cement Man

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 08:25:37 AM »
The short and honest answer to the question is I do not know. I don't think it as simple as Keynesian vs. von Mises although I lean more towards von Mises (and Shootall). ;D 
But there are other cultural/market/consumer forces in play as well that are not subject to regulation and we cannot act like our economy is independent of the rest of the world.  That time is long past and will never return.
CIVES ARMA FERANT - Let the citizens bear arms.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 08:32:32 AM »
cement man- your last sentence is a fact . If govt. would limit itself to creating a fair playing field and allow American business to choose the path to recovery it would be better than the bail outs .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 12:08:24 PM »
Short answer. NO!

Longer answer. HELL NO!

But the sad fact is that the state of the world at this time is such that it really matters not in the least what we think or what is best for the nation nor what is best for any of us who are going to be affected by it.

Our government and perhaps the governments of most nations in this world today are owned lock, stock and barrel by BIG MONEY. The super rich of the world are fully in control and what they want is what will happen and the rest of us be damned. Why do you think the bail outs are taking place? Do you think it's because of what the effect might be to the working man in the US or to the many small investors? Nope sorry that has nothing to do with it. The bottom line of them really is that the super rich who were about to lose money cuz of piss poor business practices are now going to get a huge profit off bad business practices and it will be paid for by the working masses.

The poor lazy too sorry to work folks will get just enough to keep them voting in the dumb asses who do this to us. Their only loyalty tho is to the super rich not to the lazy sorry low lifes who vote them in. Eventually when they've stolen all they can from the working middle class and the entire economy folds around us those poor lazy folks will be out on the street hungry and looking for someone to blame cuz there is no more free hand outs for them. The super rich will have moved off elsewhere and taken their riches with them.

A major adjustment needs to be made, has to be made and will be made and in the next four years. What kind of adjustment? A major reduction in the human population of earth. We'd over populated by a few billion so do not look for the reduction to be measured in millions, tens of millions or really even hundreds of millions. Look for BILLIONS to die.

How? Beats hell outta me. Take your pick it could be wars, famine, disease or government enforced concentration death camps. My guess is a bit of all of those will come into play. While I can't prove it I'd bet good money that aids is a man made disease intended to do just that reduce populations and it's doing a fair job of it but not fast enough or in large enough numbers.

The super rich want fewer folks in their way so will cause billions to die in the coming short few years. Then whomever is left along with those super rich will be their servants as they'll have all the money and if you wanna survive you'll have to do so by serving them. It's coming folks just sit back watch and see. It is the nature of man and we're soon to see the truly ugly side of mankind. I just hope that it's also the real end of time when Jesus returns for his servants and takes us away from this mess.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline skarke

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 01:52:07 PM »
The dollar is merely an instrument for economic exchange.  It has, post gold standard, no intrinsic value.  Basically, it is worth whatever the marketplace, often arbitrarily, says it is worth.  In a capitalist system of economic exchange, capital is defined as hard assets (i.e. means of production, raw materials, buildings, etc.).  Stimulus by means of "capital infusion" is a misnomer.  What is happening is that the US government, under the auspices of the "full faith and credit" promise, is borrowing paper for <1% interest (current rates).  The Keynsianists hope that such infusion of cash (paper) will spur the demand side, thus spur manufacturing.

The problem lies in that we continue to lose capital (hard assets).  No matter how much money we print, without means of production, our economic structure will continue to deteriorate (if capitalism works).

Two things will happen by infusing money into an economy to support ailing business with structural flaws (i.e. the US Auto Industry, banks that loan money to poor credit risks, etc.):  First, the process will prolong the inevitable demise of a non-competitive business model (job banks, exhorbitant labor costs, lavish white collar perks, etc.), thus shifting hard capital even more quickly oversees.  Second, printing dollars (the stimulus package) to artificially inject purchasing power into an economy WITHOUT capital backing is a hyperinflationary practice.  WE WILL see stagflation again, I predict sooner rather than later.

JM Keynes was a well educated, creative, idiot.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States when men were free.  Ronaldus Maximus

Offline phalanx

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2009, 05:07:37 PM »
The CDC is warning that this open border ,one world Government ,with obama allowing Africans to travel here is a very bad idea.
One Carrier of the Ebola Virus landing say in Houston ,and the entire City would be infected within 48 Hours.
Ebola make Aids look like a common cold , the infected feels fine for around 72 hours ,then within 24 hours his insides are turned to mush.
In Africa the infected villages are burned to the ground and the infected people are shot and burned with it.
Houston would have to be Nuked , Ebola is an Airborne virus in some stages ,so you can see the problem this could become.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline torpedoman

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2009, 06:35:36 PM »
If you alrerady have 10-12 mil in the bank it will be very good if you are working for a living and just making it payday to payday it will be very bad. Nothing will cure this problem until the government quits the excessive spending and gets our money back on a metal standard to controll the printing presses.
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2009, 10:00:13 PM »
Lets see.....  I work for a living, pay my bills, pay my mortgage, have way less in the bank then the insured maximum,  pay a pretty good sum for health insurance (I don't get the free illegal alien option)  make to much for "handouts", make to little to really get ahead, and will probably spend the rest of my working life helping to pay back the trillion dollar plus economic handout from which I will derive little or no benefit.....

So, the answer is No.

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline CannonKrazy

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2009, 03:39:45 PM »
Lets see.....  I work for a living, pay my bills, pay my mortgage, have way less in the bank then the insured maximum,  pay a pretty good sum for health insurance (I don't get the free illegal alien option)  make to much for "handouts", make to little to really get ahead, and will probably spend the rest of my working life helping to pay back the trillion dollar plus economic handout from which I will derive little or no benefit.....

So, the answer is No.

Larry


 You are exactly right. This is what my future holds as well. When and if I get old enough to quit work there will be nothing there for me to draw a check from.No medical insurance for me to use and no nursing home that will except me without an income.Guess the best thing for me is work till I die.

Offline Gary G

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2009, 04:43:22 PM »
Lets see.....  I work for a living, pay my bills, pay my mortgage, have way less in the bank then the insured maximum,  pay a pretty good sum for health insurance (I don't get the free illegal alien option)  make to much for "handouts", make to little to really get ahead, and will probably spend the rest of my working life helping to pay back the trillion dollar plus economic handout from which I will derive little or no benefit.....

So, the answer is No.

Larry


 You are exactly right. This is what my future holds as well. When and if I get old enough to quit work there will be nothing there for me to draw a check from.No medical insurance for me to use and no nursing home that will except me without an income.Guess the best thing for me is work till I die.

Well, it used be that way 100 years ago, but government was very small, we didn't get much "so called help from them", but people got to keep what they earned(no income tax) and so people saved for those things.
[Save, what's that!  LOL]
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Offline phalanx

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2009, 08:26:58 PM »
By George i think hes got it !! 
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline jimster

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2009, 06:18:14 AM »
I guess my answer to the original question..."is Obama's stimulus good or bad?"  would be...there is no plan, he does not have the faintest idea what will be in that plan...as Congress will screw up and funnel out money off into a black hole anyways.  There is nothing good can come out of any plan he might have, if he had one.  Ya...like GB said...heck no. 

And don't forget....the very first bailout for the banks did not work either....Obama now admits that, and there are those now that are saying they have no idea where those billions went either...it's just gone now...but I would suppose if anyone in Congress would have asked us, we could have told them that bailout would not work, just like we were all saying it form the start.

Nothing they do can be good...it's all about corruption and money, and the same people who caused this is still in there in charge of "saving us all"....Unless we hang them all....we are doomed.


Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2009, 06:50:45 AM »
let me see if i have it , print money with out anything to back it but debt. Then give it to the banks, big business etc. so they can create jobs that get paid with money with no value - to the people that have to pay the debt back thru. taxes . In the process the money the people already have becomes worth less .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline goater

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2009, 02:01:22 PM »
The question isn't "good or bad" ... the question is necessary or unnecessary

I believe that the economy is toast (see the excellent post from MS [our collasping economy]in Truth lies and conspiracy theories)

The economy would be toast no matter who is president or which party controls congress ... the die is cast

The real question becomes how to best ease into the disaster and how to mitigate the effects. Over the next year, the USA will become a much different county from what we have experienced since the 50's.

The republican administration has already socialized risk while profits remain private, with their bail out of the banking system (which I must admit that I accept as necessary). There are no easy, simplistic answers and anybody who tosses out a one liner, as all we need to do ... is a simpleton.

Given the turmoil we will be facing, I am much more comfortable with the democrats in control. For many of you who need to see things as "those who are willing to work versus those who won't work" .. your convenient little box will soon cease to suffice... as you, or those close to you, lose their jobs and cannot find new ones ... you are likely to finally recognize the need for a government that is willing to help

Offline Shooter973

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2009, 02:07:11 PM »
You can't borrow money and spend your way out of debt!!! :o  It just doesn't work that way!!! ::) This is exactly how Hitler did things in the 1930's and look how that ended up...... :'(

Offline Gary G

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2009, 03:56:53 PM »
The congressman from Texas explains how we got into this mess:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/024837.html
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline goater

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2009, 05:19:00 PM »
debt ....

The only way to repay debt is with new wealth

the only way to create wealth is by adding value ... manufacturing, construction, mining, agriculture, etc

a doctor does not create wealth, a sales clerk does not create wealth, a newspaper writer does not create wealth .... they just rearrange wealth

a banker can create money by loaning beyond his deposits ... but this is money balanced by additional debt ... it is not wealth

construction is stagnent in the US, far too much manufacturing has been pushed offshore ...

the only way we can pay back debt is to bring back manufacturing to the US ... but this will take time ... it doesn't happen in 1-2 months .. perhaps not even in 1-2 years

We (the US) are in for a prolonged economic crisis ... the planned government spending cannot solve the problem ... BUT ... it is necessary to mitigate the short term consequences of our unfolding economic disaster

give Obama a leash ... for your own sake

Offline BBF

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2009, 05:49:13 PM »
The economy can be turned around. First thing would be to rip up the trade contracts with China and then look at all the rest of them.

Start getting manufacturing jobs into this country. DRILL DRILL AND DRILL, If you are going to throw billions around, spend them on infrastructure.

Cut foreign aid, you are given money away that you just borrowed from someone. NUTS !!

Secure the Border and start looking for the illegals, chop the work visas by 70 %.
Get the heck out of the ME.  You are not wanted and you can't afford it either.
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Offline Gary G

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2009, 05:59:57 PM »
The question isn't "good or bad" ... the question is necessary or unnecessary

I believe that the economy is toast (see the excellent post from MS [our collasping economy]in Truth lies and conspiracy theories)

The economy would be toast no matter who is president or which party controls congress ... the die is cast

The real question becomes how to best ease into the disaster and how to mitigate the effects. Over the next year, the USA will become a much different county from what we have experienced since the 50's.

The republican administration has already socialized risk while profits remain private, with their bail out of the banking system (which I must admit that I accept as necessary). There are no easy, simplistic answers and anybody who tosses out a one liner, as all we need to do ... is a simpleton.

Given the turmoil we will be facing, I am much more comfortable with the democrats in control. For many of you who need to see things as "those who are willing to work versus those who won't work" .. your convenient little box will soon cease to suffice... as you, or those close to you, lose their jobs and cannot find new ones ... you are likely to finally recognize the need for a government that is willing to help

Goater, may I ask a question? If the government helps someone that you know, who does the government take it away from? Maybe they are taking food off someones table or maybe a good man loses his job. Is this morally right?

In most cases, it is taken away from the productive and given to the unproductive. For those it is taken from, it means less money for the people to buy the things they need. Less goods are bought so production must be reduced. When production is reduced, workers will be let go. But, if it is via inflation (printing money) then that makes everyones dollars worth less, thus robbing all of us of our wealth, even the misfortunate ones they are trying to help.

You are right, the democrats help more people. (but is it help?)
The republicans just bust the budget.

I agree with you about the manufacturing. So why does the government over regulate, over tax and over burden them driving them out of business or to other countries?

My view is the Austrian view that government should do nothing except cut its own spending. In a bust, prices come down, people will buy what they need and save the rest. Savings become loanable funds that are needed for capital expansion. With lower prices. purchases of items increase. Production will begin to slowly accelerate once more from a healthy base. Government interference thwarts these activities. The stimulus government makes is taken out of the same economy that it is injected into. It causes mixed market signals. The stimulus further drives down interest rates which retards savings. When the stimulus runs out, then there is no healthy base of loanable funds (savings) for capital investment. The eighteenth century economist, David Hume, noticed that the English economy did not have booms and busts up until something happened. He figured out what it was. It was caused by banks when they figured out that the could expand the money supply by printing more notes than the gold they had in store, (the beginning of fractional reserve banking). They knew that not everyone would come at the same time to redeem their gold.

The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

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Offline jimster

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2009, 04:16:09 AM »
"Given the turmoil we will be facing, I am much more comfortable with the democrats in control."

Well...I'm not in any of the two parties....I see no difference in them and their voting records prove there is no difference the last few years.  It might be interesting to point out the democrats have been in control for approx 43 years out of the last 50....and the Republicans have been voting WITH the Dem's for at least the last three years, in which case Dem's were in control also....

I guess I don't feel as comfy as you with Dem's in control....or either of the two parties for that matter.

I do not see the Dem's as doing anything correctly lately either...bail out did not work (Obama says so as well)...they did not complain when interest rates were lowered when they should have been raised up (econmics 101...you don't STOP a recession...you work with it, because a recession is needed to make too much consumption right again...and you force people to SAVE insteas of borrow)...and of course you don't print money (high school basic economics)

In short, both Dem's and reps are not as smart as we are when it comes to math and the economy...add to that some corruption and I can't see how anyone could feel comfy with with either party in control...especially the Dem's who have been in control 80 percent of the time over the last 50 years??  Plus the last three....and now....how is that working out so far???  Anyone know how much more money they will print and throw at people without our permission?  They are doing everything all backwards....they even voted on the first bail out bill backwards...and we do NOT know where that money went.  It has FAILED...and we all knew it would.  They can't spend their way out of debt...they are FOOLS.

We need all new people and we need to get rid of this DEM/REP thing...there is no difference in the two.
I'm not feeling real comfy with the Dems in there at all, they are not nearly as smart as I am...and I am not all that smart.


Offline goater

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2009, 05:41:18 AM »
"If the government helps someone that you know, who does the government take it away from?"

Unfortunately ... the government is borrowing from the Chinese at this point ...


Correct ... the bailout did not work ... banks are still deleveraging in an ugly way  ... I'm not saying that I believe this but I did hear that the early TARP money was used in a futile attempt to prop up the stock market and that's why it's gone

This situation is really unprecedented and there is no easy fix ... manufacturing cannot come back in a short time ... it takes time to develop tooling and produce machines necessary to restart manufacturing

the problem is ... how do we survive is the meanwhile ... as retail businesses close ...  commercial real estate tanks  ... more people on unemployment and fewer tax dollars for government entities at all levels ... IMHO, we will NEED substantive government intervention to keep us civil

Offline Gary G

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2009, 07:45:21 AM »
Quote
If the government helps someone that you know, who does the government take it away from?...

Quote
Unfortunately ... the government is borrowing from the Chinese at this point ...

Borrowed money is money that has to be paid back with interest or defaulted upon. Who pays it?

I have been thinking about this. We have been buying Chinese goods, Chinese merchants swap the new dollars for yuan. The Chinese government buys our debt with those dollars. But, our buying is drying up. The Chinese are selling less to us, therefore have fewer dollars to buy US debt instruments with, and at the same time that our government is ballooning our debt. They can't raise taxes, so the only option is printing. This makes us all poorer now as opposed to poorer later. So the stimulus turns out to be un-stimulating. And we run a high risk of destroying our currency. If the Chinese see that happening, they will probably try to unload their dollar denominated holdings. That would implode our bond market. We would find ourselves in deep do do, much like happened to the USSR.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline Gary G

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2009, 07:52:17 AM »
Jimster, you are sounding like George Washington. Good for you! He too warned of the perils of a party system in his farewell address.  ;)
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2009, 08:25:20 AM »
It will only work so far.  Public works like road construction, bridges, etc, can only go so far.  Building homes and commercial buildings, making cars or other goods, now that is stimulus.  If he really wanted to help kill two birds with one stone, he needs to help finance domestic energy production, windmills, geothermal, solar power, tidal power, nuclear power.  Help kick start the large vehicle hybrids.  We would put people to work on these projects and begin to cut down on foreign imported oil at the same time.  Also, open up all government land to oil, coal, and natural gas production.  Especially marginal land and offshore, that is not good for hunting, fishing or such.  This would create a lot of permanent jobs in the energy sector.  Begin tarrifs on imported goods in order to bring production back home.  Don't overtax domestic industries to drive them offshore. 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2009, 09:00:15 AM »
goater, to your one liner post , all the sugar coated words one might wish to wrap their take on the situation won't hide the fact that that pizz poor business pratices by big business , govt. and banking caused the problem .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Gary G

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2009, 12:00:45 PM »
It will only work so far.  Public works like road construction, bridges, etc, can only go so far.  Building homes and commercial buildings, making cars or other goods, now that is stimulus.  If he really wanted to help kill two birds with one stone, he needs to help finance domestic energy production, windmills, geothermal, solar power, tidal power, nuclear power.  Help kick start the large vehicle hybrids.  We would put people to work on these projects and begin to cut down on foreign imported oil at the same time.  Also, open up all government land to oil, coal, and natural gas production.  Especially marginal land and offshore, that is not good for hunting, fishing or such.  This would create a lot of permanent jobs in the energy sector.  Begin tarrifs on imported goods in order to bring production back home.  Don't overtax domestic industries to drive them offshore. 
1. Who would pay for it?
2. And would the government be more efficient with these projects than private enterprise?
3. Don't tariffs raise prices which leaves consumers with less to spend on other things? Then wouldn't domestic business suffer along with consumers?

[Don't overtax domestic industries to drive them offshore.] That is a very good idea, but it requires less government spending.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2009, 12:51:32 PM »
"give Obama a leash ... for your own sake"


Oh how I wish I had a leash on that peice of dung, I'd tie him up and just give him enough of a leash to let him hang himself.

BHO will be the end of America.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline jimster

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Re: Is Obama's stimulus good or bad?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2009, 01:50:00 PM »
"the problem is ... how do we survive is the meanwhile ... as retail businesses close ...  commercial real estate tanks  ... more people on unemployment and fewer tax dollars for government entities at all levels ... IMHO, we will NEED substantive government intervention to keep us civil"

Goater,  it is my opinion that things are way less complicated than they make it out to be.   We are in deep, but not so deep as to actually think we need any more government intervention to fix, what government invention caused in the first place. 

Cut taxes across the board for every person and business and corporations (cut them a LOT), cut capital gains taxes to zero,  RAISE the interest rates, LET the RECESSION go and STOP trying to FIX it.  STOP PRIINTING MONEY.  What would happen if they did this.  First thing that happens is you just forced government to stop spending cause guess what...it's not there, we are spending our own money now.  No....we won't all shrivel up and die if government does not have OUR money...I guarantee if state and federal governments rolled back the taxes in what paychecks that are left you would have 5 times more money to spend all year around and it's money that is already there, they don't have to print and borrow.  The economy would bounce back and in time they can increase taxes SOME, lower the interest rates and the banks would still need to be more careful who they lend money to, or THEY go down...not me.

The reason they won't do this is because they want to spend billlions of our dollars...without our money, a lot of government dies and they don't want to die.  Much simpler than they make you think.  They know how it works,  and they know the math,  they don't want to stop spending is all it is.  It's called control, and which party is the best, and which party can save us, and all that nonsense.  We save ourselves is how it should be.  Without government intervention we could.  They have done absolutely the opposite of what they should have done.  It's insane.  As far as needing them to keep things civil as you say, that is just exactly what they will tell you when it gets so bad they need to take away more of your freedoms...it will be for your own safety.