GI Carbine for Whitetail Hunting

[Kragman71]

Hello,
I just installed a newly reconditioned Weaver K3 scope on My 30 Cal GI Carbine. I like it so much that I want to use it as an 'alternate' Whitetail rifle.
My problem is that I don't know what bullet to use.
I have some 110 grain Remingtons,which may foot the bill. I'm sure that it will do nicely with a double lung shot.
I would like to know what experience you may have had with different bullets with quartering shots and shoulder shots
Thank you,
Frank

[Graycg]

You better check, but I believe the 30 Carbine is prohibited for deer hunting in NY.  Round really is sub-marginal for humane deer hunting and illegal for such in many places, either not meeting the required energy levels or by actual specific prohibition against the caliber.
   If forced to use a carbine on edible game for hunting, I'd recommend a 110 grain round nosed soft point.  I'm pretty sure that Federal still sells them in 20 round boxes.

regards,
 Graycg.

[Kragman71]

Graycg,
Thanks for the reply. I think that he Carbine is still legal,here in NY;at least,I know that it is still being used.
I have considered using my 45 ACP or my 357 MAG,but think that the Carbine,for Me,is a better choice.
I know that the range limit is about 60 yards,but that is the normal range for shooting deer,around here.
I just want to use the best bullet for 'humane' killing.
It's not a case of necessity,I shoot most of my deer with a Krag. I don't know anything better then that,for the kind of hunting that I do.
Frank

[John Traveler]

Fellas,

GrayCG is right.

Several states prohibit the use of the .30 US Carbine for deer hunting on the basis of muzzle energy (factory ammunition) or specifically (rifle & cartridge combination).

Although I must admit, I've seen several one-shot stops on deer with the .30 Caliber MI1 Carbine using 110 grain softpoint loads.

A retired NYPD police officer named James Cirillo used to head up a bank robbery squad, and he wrote in his police training courses that he observed the M1 carbine with soft-point loads to be a reliable man stopper.

Oh, yeah, an interesting story I heard this weekend:  a guy shot his deer, and on dressing it out, found that the liver had a pingpong-ball-sized CLEAR spot all the way through it.  It looked so strange that he wondered if the buck had some liver disease, so he examined the carcasss carefully and discovered a through-and-through wound completely through the animal, piercing it's liver.  Someone had shot the animal through it's soft-spots, and it survived for at least that season or more!!  It was an old wound and had completely healed.

[Lee D.]

Legal in N.Y.
     The only requirement in N.Y. is centerfire.  There is a restricton on pistols but , I don't know it offhand.  If you built a 25ACP in a rifle it would be legal.

[savageT]

Here's my take on the Mi Carbine:  I love the little gun, but I really don't think it is a good choice.  That said, I will show you what New York requires:

Descriptions of Legal Implements for Big Game Hunting



Bow- Long (stick), recurve or compound bow with a draw weight in excess of 35 pounds. A legal arrowhead is nonbarbed, has 2 or more cutting edges and is at least 7/8 inches wide.

 
Muzzleloader- Firearm loaded through the muzzle, a minimum bore of .44 inches and shooting a single projectile. Scopes may now be used during the Special Muzzleloading Season in addition to the Regular Big Game Season and the Early Bear Season. See Muzzleloading section of regulations for special requirements during the muzzleloading season.

 
Handgun*- any centerfire pistol or revolver. Barrel length maximum is 16 inches

 
Shotgun*- Must be 20 gauge of larger and fire a single projectile, rifling in the barrel or choke is allowed

 
Rifle* - any centerfire rifle.

 
* - It is illegal to hunt with a fully automatic firearm; an autoloading firearm that holds more than 6 shells, except an autoloading pistol with a barrel length under 8 inches; or any firearm equipped with a silencer.

[jhalcott]

just because it's legal doesn't make it right! Few guns break 2000 fps with 110 grain bullets. Most bullet makers state the 30m1 is good for small game.They are not known for accuracy either. If you must shoot a deer with an m1 use a 110 grain round nose.
   As an aside, in Maine the .22mag rimfire is legal !!??? I wouldn't use one of these either,unless I was in a survival situation.  jh

[Blackhawk44]

Just think, a 10" 30 Herret will get you 3-400fps more velocity with the same bullet than a carbine.  As short as the 110 gr RN is, shoulder and quartering shots are pretty much out of the question at nearly any range.  True, virtually any round can bring down any animal with a single shot, under the right circumstances.  Seldom do you get "the right circumstances" with a carbine.  I've seen a number killed, but they usually had multiple wounds and had been run a long way.  I'd save the carbine for charging jackrabbits and such.

[Kragman71]

Gentlemen,
Let me explain smething. I'm insulted when some poor soul talks 'down' to me about humane killing. I'm very proud of my record of quick kills over the last 55 years,and will not do anything now,to ruin it.
I explained that my favorite Whitetail rifle is a 30/40 Krag. Those of you,who actually hunt wil agree that it is an excellent choice for woodland hunting.
Now,Legal deer are more plentiful,here in New York,so I am experimenting with some rifles that have less of an 'insurance' measure for success. The last two deer that I got,I used a little Winchester 30/30. I got a one shot kill at 100 yards plus,and another at 60 yards.
I even tried using a single-shot Springfield 45/70 carbine,but had no chances.
Now,I'm considering using the smaller GI Carbine,for a greater challenge.
I have no great need for meat,and I don't enjoy killing animals,just to watch them die. I can,and have done many times,let a deer walk,if the shot would be a low percentage choice.
With the proper placement,within range,the GICarbine can readily kill a Whitetail. That is just a known fact.
I know,although some of you may not,that the choice of bullet is just as important as the choice of caliber or gun.
The only way that I can find out which is the best choice,is to ask those who have tried it in the past. If you have had an experience,either good or bad,in this matter,I would be oblidged if you shared it with me.
If you have no knowledge to share,just ignore this post
Thank you
Frank

[Blackhawk44]

No offense meant.  We all know that a more experienced hunter can often use get away with things an novice should never think to try.  Just that from what I've seen, 357 and 44 carbines are far more reliable.  The standard 110gr RN seems to be unreliable.  Sometimes it performs as it should, a decent mushroom and penetration, and a number of times, it doesn't; just acts like hardball or pentration is too short.  It seems to be the bullet as much as the velocity.  Again, nothing was meant as a personnal effront.    BH

[Larry Gibson]

Kragman71

You've got my response over on the CSP forum.  Go for it, have fun, enjoy the time afield and let us know how you do.

Larry Gibson

[jhalcott]

I was not trying to flame you sir. I know a young lady that killed a buck that was nearly twice her 120 pounds. She used a 30 carbine NOT knowing it was not legal in Md.Lyman makes a 311410 mold that casts a 130 gr bullet.Stuffed on top of 12 grains of 2400,it should get over 1700 fps.This might be a better bullet than the 110RN.  jh :oops:

[Kragman71]

Larry;thanks again
Jhalcott,
You and I share some things. I am a cast bullet hunting Fan.The last buck that I shot was hit with a 170 grain pure lead bullet wrapped in #9 paper.
I intend to work up a paper patched bullet load for my GI Carbine,if I have any satisfaction with it this comming Fall. With a pure lead bullet,I'll get sufficient expansion in the ribs and sufficient penetration in the shoulder.
I called the Speer Hotline this afternoon,and was advised that their 110 gr RN/SP was designed to open at around 1850 FPS. That means that it will be unreliable beyond 50 yards. According to their Tables,that bullet,leaving the muzzle at 2100 FPS,will be travelling only 1825 FPS at 50 yards. He also advised me to not take any shoulder shots,at all. That brings me back to Larry's advice,using the Hornaday 100 grainer. I will then refuse any choulder shots.
If the Good Lord allows it,I'll develope a cast bullet of 115-120 grains for next year.
I'm taking the GI Carbine to the range tomorrow. If I don't do well,this whole plan goes down the tubes.
Frank

[Dave in WV]

Frank, I've seen good results from a 30 carbine. The range was under 50yds. The shoulder was avoided for better penitration. The 30 carbine is about on par with a 125gr .357 load. What can I say, I'm underpowered with my .243 to some. Dave

[Larry Gibson]

Kragman71

You're welcome.  

311410 was mentioned as a good cast bullet for the carbine.  It was the 1st bullet mould I got for rifle use years ago.  It was a HP mould and I also cast solids by dropping a BB in the mould prior to casting.  It weighed in heavy with #2 alloy at 120 gr in HP and 130 gr in solid form.  I could not get better than 6 moa with it regardless of the alloy beyond 1500 fps.
To drive it fast enough to stabilize in the 1-16 twist it had to be cast of #2 or WWs both of which gave poor terminal performance on coyotes even as a HP at below 1500 fps (above that hitting them was "iffy").  As a solid it performed as such on amimals, poorly.   Apparently some M1 carbines had slower twist than 1-16 so you might want to measure yours before going to heavier bullet than 115-118 gr.  Also you may have some stability problems with a longer paper patched bullets.  The barrel twist is the limiting factor there.

As a good GC cast bullet can be driven to .30 carbine velocity with ecxellent accuracy and equal velocity I tried them  Lyman 311359 shot well up to 1900 fps but is a poor performer on animals.  When Lyman announced the 105 gr GC SWC for the .32 H&R I got one to try in the M1.  I cast them of straight magnum shot (lead and antimony alloy only) and water quenched hardened them out of the mould.  Sized .310 and lubed with Javlina I push them at 1850 fps with H110.  I have on numerous occasions put a 15 rd magazine into 3 inches at 100 yards.  At that velocity there is no leading and i have shot several hundred of them without cleaning the barrel, accuracy held through out.  They can be safely loaded to 2000 fps but accuracy goes after 5-10 shots as the barrel begins to lead.  That's ok for deer hunting and is the velocity I would use for deer.  The 1850 fps loads are very deadly on coyotes, rock chucks and jack rabbits so the 2000 fps load would be even better for use on deer.  I have not hunted deer with the M1 carbine for years but would not hesitate to hunt those little blacktails with this cast bullet load though I would probably load up the Hornady 100 gr HJs as they are a known performer for me.  

For cast bullet hunting I prefer the 30-30 or a 308 CBC wildcat I made up.
With the 30-30 311041 is pretty hard to beat.  My 308 CBC was designed with the .30 Krag in mind but for use as a rimless case in a Mauser action.  Wanted it to drive 311284 or 311299 at 2200 fps at case capacity with 4895.  I succeeded quite nicely.  Either bullet cast of the magnum shot are very deady on deer.

Let us know how you do with the carbine today.

Larry Gibson

[Steve357]

My 12 year old girl loves to hunt, but being on the small size most rifles are either too heavy or if they are light, they kick her too hard.  All of the stands she hunts with me from are a max of a 50yd shot.  I bought a .30 carbine and have worked up a load, she hasn't taken a deer with it yet, but maybe this year.  

I crono'd Federal's 110gr softpoint and came up with an average of about 2050fps for 5 rounds...

With some surplus ball ammo I got just a touch over 1900fps.

I worked up a load out of the "LoadMap" for the .30.

New Starline brass, 110gr softpoint bullets (Remington if I recall) and 15gr of H110, Winchester SRP, OAL @ 1.68.  This produces a touch over 2150fps in my Inland carbine.

This load didn't show much in way of pressure signs, maybe a little flattening of a primer or two, but not bad.

I shot some wet clay and some one gallon jugs of water, doesn't prove anything, but it was fun.  Made a big mess....lol

I understand the .30 isn't a superduper deer caliber, but I think for the way it's going to be used it will do ok.  

A buddy of mine's little boy shot a nice 5 point whitetail with a Ruger .40 carbine at about 60yds with a 150gr hollowpoint that I figure was moving along at about 1100fps.  The round hit the deer in the heart lung area and went completely thru.  It ran about 40yds and was dead by the time they climbed out of the stand and walked to it.

[Doctor Sam]

Just as an aside for all you folks: down here in Louisiana the poachers, lots of them around, use a high powdered flashlight and a .22 long rifle.  If they had a .30 caliber carbine they would consider themselves overgunned.  

Doctor Sam

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on it. I used a carbine for the first two years I dear hunted and shot 4 deer with it all good clean kills. One of the old guys at camp has hunted with his for 30 years and loves it he has other more powerful guns to use but it has allways worked for him. I know he has shot over 100 deer with it.  Alot of deer have been killed with a 3220 winchester and a .357 and those rounds are of simular power. Bottom line is its a boderline cartridge that will take deer with careful bullet placement. If you want to pop a does with it go for it. I have seen to many deer on the buck pole shot by one to say its ineffective

[Kragman71]

Thanks for your input,Fooks
The outing at the range was better then I had expected. I had been getting sub 3 inch MOA groups with IMR 4227 and Win 296,but with the new(to me) H110,I got a couple of sub 2 inch MOA groups.
LMG,I have shot a lot of Lyman #311359 bullet in the Carbine,all hard cast,and not suitable for hunting. I also believe that a pure lead round nosed bullet weighing 115-120 grains will not be much longer thet the semi-pointed 100 grain Hornaday SJ bullet. I can regulate the length with my adjustable mold.
Steve,both you and Larry are using more powder then is recommended by the Speer #12 manual. Its interesting. Some people say that H110 is the same as W296,and are using loads recommed for the latter.The manual lists 14.5 grains as MAX for the 100 gr bullet. It lists 15.5 grains as MAX for W296.
I got great results with 15.0 grains of H110,with no signs of any trouble. I guess that I'll try .05 more,the next time out.
I'll keep you Guys posted
Frank

[Steve357]

Frank,

I got my data from Hodgdon.  It's starting point with H110 with a 110 jacketed bullet shows 14gr @ 2006 fps.  Max load is 15gr @ 2106.  I started out at 13gr and worked my way up slowwwwly.  Seems to do fine.
Keep us filled in on how the project goes.  The .30carbine has been a favorite of mine for years.  More fun than a barrel of monkeys....


Steve

[Larry Gibson]

Kragman71  

"Steve,both you and Larry are using more powder then is recommended by the Speer #12 manual. Its interesting."  

Have not worked with 296 in the M1 so I can't say much about the max loads listed.  However, my load is from older manuals and was considered max by them.  My usual procedure was to chronograph a new lot of H110 working up to 1930-1950 fps.  Never had a single lot over the years that didn't produce that velocity with that charge.  Never had any problems with pressure, zero remained constant and brass was ejected to same pattern.  All of which are consistant signes of a consistant load.  I have shot thousands of these loads in numerous carbines without problem.  

Glad to see you are getting good accuracy with your carbine.  They are fun and enjoyable rifles to shoot.

Larry Gibson

[Graybeard]

Test.  :eek:

This is only a test.  :roll:

If it were a real post I'd have said something.  :-D

GB

[Kragman71]

G B,
I just tried another Post.
When I clicked "SUBMIT",the page disappeared for a micro second,and reappeared. No conformation,and the Post did not appear in the Forum.
I did notice that one of the 2 that I previously entered,is on the Forum.
I'll try again,when I have some News.
Frank

[Kragman71]

G B,
BINGO!
For some reason,there is a  l o n g  delay after I hit the "SUBMIT" button.
While sitting here,thinking of what to do next,I noticed that blue line at the bottom of the screen,start to appear.
Frank

[Joel W.]

A hunting partner of mine kills deer every year with an IBM Carbine.  He loads the 110 Hornady.
 
I also chuckle when I hear folks deride the Carbine's  deer killing ability.  They kill deer around here all year long with .22 long rifles, then on the second Saturday in November, suddenly the deer become impervious to such measley cartridges of less foot poundage than 338/378 whompemstompems.
   
This is America.  Use whatever rifle floats your boat.
 
For Example:
If you pull a boner and lose a deer because you tried to shoot 475 yards with your Marlin .30-30, don't blame it on the gun.  And certainly don't look down your nose at other who would like to hunt with the Marlin 30-30, Hell they may even know how to use a given firearm within its limitations.  
Real Limitations, not perceived limitations. :wink:

[Kragman71]

Joel,
We seem to be in complete agreement here.
My regular Whitetail rifle is the 30/40 Krag.I learned,a long time ago,that it will kill a deer instantly,at 250 yards. I also now know that MY range with any gun,is not much more then 100 yards. I did that only 2 years ago.
My personal range is now within the boundries of the 30/30 Win. I'm not giving up too much by switching to the GI Carbine.
I am sure that there are Hunters who can do as well with the GI Carbine as I do with the 30/30. They can just as surely do as well with the 30/30 as I used to do with the Krag. They can also do as well with some 22 caliber as I do with the GI Carbine.
I'm not going to criticize someone else for using a cartrdge because of my own limitations.
Frank