35 Remington versus the 30-30 on deer

[rickt300]

On our deer lease there are one each of these rifles in use every year. The 30-30 is usually shot with 150 grain corelokts and the 35 gets 200 grain corelokts. I tend to help with tracking any deer that gets out of sight and often gut most of the deer killed on the lease as I am on it because I keep the feeders filled and babysit the other lease members to help them get their deer. So far in 5 years not one deer hit with the 35 has gotten out of sight but I have spent many hours searching for the deer hit with the 30-30. In fact I have bought a 35 Remington 336 and a 14 inch contender barrel so I can do my own testing.

[Cowpox]

I did a comparison of the two cartridges and bullet weights on the Remington web site.

The 30/30 150 grain core lokt has a distinct velocity advantage over the 200 grain core lokt in the .35.

     300 ft secs more at the muzzle, fading to 160 ft secs more at 300 yards.

The 30/30 150 shoots 18 1/2 inches flatter to 300 yards than the 200 grn .35 , again a distinct advantage for the 30/30.

The .35 shows a mere 20 ft pounds more muzzle energy, and fades to a dead heat at 300 yards.  Slight advantage to the .35.

However, I would guess the extra 50 grains, and larger frontal section of the .35 causes more tissue and nerve damage and better energy transfer, resulting in a lot better "knock down" power than the paper figures can indicate.

[BBF]

It would have been interesting to see the results if the 30-30 guys were using 170 gr bullets and some of the newer and lighter HP loads.

[mcwoodduck]

I think you need to test apples to apples.
get some 150 grain 35 Rem ammo to compare with the 150 grain 30-30
and some 170 grain round nose 30-30 ammo to compare with the 200 grain 35 rem.
I think the big round nose of the bullets has a lot to do with the Brush gun reputation of these two rounds. 
I have a 308 and in the woods I have found that the remington round nose 180 grain bullets drop deer and keep them down and the pointed soft points when hit in the same spot will not knock the deer down and will allow them to run a little way and the holes are not very big and little blood loss.
Of course I have not shot a lot of deer about (30-40)and can not prove it beyond a shadow of doubt but that is what it seems to me.

[Coyote Hunter]

I did a comparison of the two cartridges and bullet weights on the Remington web site.

The 30/30 150 grain core lokt has a distinct velocity advantage over the 200 grain core lokt in the .35.

     300 ft secs more at the muzzle, fading to 160 ft secs more at 300 yards.

The 30/30 150 shoots 18 1/2 inches flatter to 300 yards than the 200 grn .35 , again a distinct advantage for the 30/30.

You need to check your math again.  With a 100 yard zero the difference is 11.3”.   With a 150 yard zero the difference is 9.0”  at 300 yards.  Maybe you were looking at 500 yards where the difference is 17.2”?

The .35 shows a mere 20 ft pounds more muzzle energy, and fades to a dead heat at 300 yards.  Slight advantage to the .35. 

Never mind that neither one has enough energy at 300 yards to interest me.   Only 565fpe for the .30-30/150g and 577fpe for the .35Rem/200g.  At 200 yards I’d prefer the .30-30/170g (989fpe) vs. 841fpe for the  .35Rem/200g.

However, I would guess the extra 50 grains, and larger frontal section of the .35 causes more tissue and nerve damage and better energy transfer, resulting in a lot better "knock down" power than the paper figures can indicate.

Again, at 200 I’ll go with the .30-30/170g at 1619fps – the .35Rem/200g is  down to 1376fps.

Putting my money where my mouth is, I use 170g handloads in my .30-30 for hunting purposes.

[rickt300]

On this lease anyway even getting a shot past 125 yards is something you would really have to work for. These whitetails are generally in the brush and woods. I gutted and checked the wounds made by 2 shot with the 30-30 last year and one for the 35 this year. Whatever the paper ballistics are the 35 made noticably larger holes in the rib cage though the exit hole was only a little larger than those hit with the 30-30. All bullets exited the only real difference was that the deer hit with the 30-30 traveled more than 50 yards and the one hit with the 35 went down in it's tracks. All were solid chest hits. This has been the pattern for these two rifles over the years. We have as far as I know never recovered a slug from the 35 in a deer but I have pulled several from deer shot with the 30-30. As to shooting deer at 200 yards with a 30-30 don't expect much in the way of expansion past 175 yards. I have killed several mule deer in Wyoming with a 30-30, some pretty far away and noticed the bullets expanded little if any but gave very good penetration. This included breaking some bone. Looking at the reloading manuals it appears that getting 2200 fps with a 220 grain bullet is feasible with the 35 Remington using pressures no higher than the 30-30 is designed for and getting 2200 fps with a 200 grain bullet is really easy.

[Graybeard]

This is another of those cases that show paper ballistics are really quite meaningless. Even discussing what each might do at 300 yards is again a waste of time as neither are appropriate 300 yard rounds. Both are best used to a max of around 200 yards.

The old .35 just flat kills out of proportion to what paper ballistics would indicate it should. It is far more effective than any perusal of paper would make you think and as the real world reports here indicate it is really a more effective choice than a .30-30 tho there certainly is nothing wrong with it either so long as bullets are properly placed.

[rickt300]

I have hunted whitetails in a lot of places and can't remember ever shooting one as far off as 200 yards. Same with coastal blacktails. In fact the longest shot I ever took on a mule deer was right at 300 yards but again most were taken at less than 200 yards. One reason for this is that I don't just open up as soon as I see a game animal and won't shoot if circumstances aren't pretty good. I started my hunting carreer in east Texas and for 10 years never shot one farther than 75 yards out, I used a 30-30 then myself and had to look for several reasonably well hit deer but I am happy to say I found all of them. My favorite load then was 32.5 grains of 3031 and the Sierra 150 grain flat nose bullet. Seemed a step up from the factory loads too.

[mechanic]

Make the guys swap guns for a more scientific approach. But to agree with what someone else has said, paper ballistics aren't all they are cracked up to be.  I've hit deer at close range with a shotgun slug and had to track them.  I shot 4 this year with a 243 and didn't have to track a one.  A few years ago I had a Winchester "Big Bore" 375 that really hammered deer, but the guy I sold it to claimed it lacked the power to kill one.

Ben

[Cowpox]

You nailed it the first time Coyote Hunter.

I shouldn't have tried working it in my head.  28.8 from 40.1 leaves 11.3 for sure.

If you think Remington listing bullet drop and energy to 300 yards is silly, they listed velocity for both cartridges to 500 ?

Agree with everything you said. 

While I used both calibers in my youth, I doubt the farthest shot I took was 60 yards.  In the brushy draws deer favor in the Minnesota woods, you usually can't see 30 yards, most of the time.

[kevthebassman]

I've only taken one deer with the .35 Rem, as I just bought mine (a Marlin 336C) this year.  I've seen several taken with the caliber.  It is a flat-out killer and hits like Thor's Hammer in my limited experience.

My deer that I took with it this year was a 100 yard shot, slightly quartering towards me.  The bullet was the Hornady LeverEvolution 200 grain, and it entered centered on the ribcage, put a .35 caliber hole in, a fist sized hole in the near side ribcage, demolished the lungs, then barely cut paunch and exited behind the ribs on the far side with a quarter sized hole.

The big fat doe ran about 20 yards then gave up the ghost.

You cannot possibly ask anything more from a lever gun.

[dawgdiesel]

I have taken numerous deer with my .35. Been using it for about 15 years. I don't even remember any deer hardly running off at all. Most crumbled on the spot. My .35 has always been downright nasty. My friends still to this day call her "Knockem Down Sally".

[OldBob]

   I have both calibers in 336 Marlins and have killed a lot of deer with both. Both get the job done if you do your part but I have to give the .35 a definite edge for "knockdown" DRT performance. Bigger diameter, heavier bullets do have the advantage at the ranges we shoot our deer at, normally under 100 yds. I also believe the .35 tends to spoil less meat because the bullet holds together better.

[rickt300]

I did the scientific thing, Tommy's 30-30 somehow got the rear sight broken so i loaned him my 270 loaded down a bit using 48.0 grains of H414 and the Nosler 130 grain solid base bullets to get around 2800fps, 3 deer with 4 shots. One was a miss, and all were down inside 20 feet.

[DaveShooter]

This is another of those cases that show paper ballistics are really quite meaningless. Even discussing what each might do at 300 yards is again a waste of time as neither are appropriate 300 yard rounds. Both are best used to a max of around 200 yards.

The old .35 just flat kills out of proportion to what paper ballistics would indicate it should. It is far more effective than any perusal of paper would make you think and as the real world reports here indicate it is really a more effective choice than a .30-30 tho there certainly is nothing wrong with it either so long as bullets are properly placed.

Right-on Bill I been a fan of the 35 rem for yrs. Just landed a 32 Win Special at the last gun show. That ole round is 170 gr. Great talking at ya again Bill My computer was on the blitz for awhile got it taken care of.
Dave

[deernhog]

I have had better results with a .30-30 using the Win silverip than the .35 Rem with the 200 grn corlokt.  The last few years the .30-30 with any of the Silvertips has pretty much dropped all within feet of impact. The last 4 deer shot with the .35 had to be tracked but were effectively dispatched. I have a box of old .35 remington 200 grn silvertips that I will use next year in our camp to see if the effectiveness increases. The effectiveness of either rifle at 300 yards is totally of no use to me as I would not shoot that far with either gun.  All the deer I am referring to were broadside shots to the boiler room not the drop like a rock neck shots.

[Coyote Hunter]

You nailed it the first time Coyote Hunter.

I shouldn't have tried working it in my head.  28.8 from 40.1 leaves 11.3 for sure.

If you think Remington listing bullet drop and energy to 300 yards is silly, they listed velocity for both cartridges to 500 ?

Agree with everything you said. 

While I used both calibers in my youth, I doubt the farthest shot I took was 60 yards.  In the brushy draws deer favor in the Minnesota woods, you usually can't see 30 yards, most of the time.

Cowpox –

Listing 500 yard ballistics really isn’t out of line – with the exception of my .44 Mag Browning carbine I’ve shot all of my centerfire rifles at that range, including my .30-30, .375 Win and .45-70 Marlins.  On a trip to the  Whittington Center range in Raton, NM, the .375 Win and .45-70 both went 4 of 5 on the 500 meter rams after getting the 40mph crosswind and bullet drop figured out.  (Never did quite figure it out for the 1000 meter buffalo as neither I nor my wife could see where the bullets were hitting.)  These days I shoot  the Marlins at 300 yards fairly regularly and further on occasion.

One thing the .30-30 has going for it is bullet selection.  I use a 170g Partition RN but no such critter is available for the .35 Rem, in any weight.  If going after griz or moose I might prefer a .35 Rem with 250g bullets (actually I’d grab my .45-70)  but other than that I’ll stick with the .30-30 and 170g Partitions – if they can’t do it reliably I’m nor going to bet on the marginal advantage (if any) a .35 Rem/200g might add. 

[Sharps-Nut]

       Seems to me the larger the projo the more its going to tranfer to the critter.  I know when I left the 7x57 and went to the 308 win seemingly near identical shot placements yielded very different results and the velocity was right at 2800 on both.  Making me believe just as in engines there no replacement for displacement.  I have never shot a deer with a 35 remington but hope next year to try it.  Also seems like sometimes there is just more fight in some of them to survive than others?  Good posts and debate either way.. SN

[rimfire]

Its funny, but I have satisfied myself that you can get away with some very marginal calibers if you shoot them right. 

I have taken at least 6 [have to check my notes] with a 7-30 Waters handgun with 120 grain bullets, both the factory load and handloaded with 120 NBT.  My buddy uses same gun with 130 SSP bullet.  Velocity and energy much less than 30-30 in a rifle, yet neither of us have trailed a deer more than 30 yards.  In fact the 6 I have shot have not taken a step and only one of his has moved at all...about 30 yards he said. 

The deer where we live are much larger than the Southern deer I was used to in Virginia growing up, and included in these deer is the largest bodied deer I have ever taken.

Honestly, if you are tracking a deer very far shot at less than 100 yards with a 30-30 on a consistent basis I would question either the bullet or shot placement.  Might want to consider a lighter bullet that gives more expansion as on Whitetails bullet failure in my experience is almost always too much penetration/not enough expansion as opposed to excessive expansion.

The other thing I may do differently than most is that I aim straight above the front leg as opposed to behind it.  I have found this seems to drop deer quicker and I wanted that in heavy cover where I commonly hunt here.

I have shot about 40 deer so far in my life so my opinion is based on a somewhat limited sample size. 

[BBF]

30-30 or 35 Rem on moose ok, but on grizz!! Not if I could help it !

[Coyote Hunter]

30-30 or 35 Rem on moose ok, but on grizz!! Not if I could help it !

Yeah, that's kind of where I was going with the .45-70...

I do know a man-killer grizz was killed with a new .30 wonder cartridge up in Idaho, back around the turn of the last century - as in 1900.  The new wonder cartridge used was the .30-30.  Placement, placement, placement...

[rickt300]

Just like the 30-30 the 35 Remington can be reloaded for and upper end loads pushing the 220 grain Speer hotcor reach 2200 fps, this level of performance can be obtained from Buffaloe Bore's factory load with the same bullet. I think I would prefer this to any high end loading for the 30-30 no matter what the bullet for elk or moose within it's effective ranges. However I think I would carry something bigger if I was actually hunting large bears just the same. In reality Nosler Partitions show little advantage at velocities as low as 2200 fps when compared to other well constructed bullets.

[mcwoodduck]

I think it would be neat if companies would produce a compact rifle in 35 Rem. Ruger M77, Remington M7, and a CZ 527.
It would be great as a brush rifle and with the hot loads it would be good for even the biggest critters.
The Lever evolution rounds would bake it good for longer shots.
And the standard stuff would work well for deer and black bear as well as a kids rifle.  Big bullet less recoil short rifle.

[Keith L]

Marlin levers are chambered in 35 rem, and are compact rifles.

[mcwoodduck]

Yea but I really like bolt actions as hunting rifle.  And I know it was the wrong spot to make that comment  but,
I do own a Marlin lever or two but still first reach for a bolt on the way out the door to go big game hunting.  Must be the falls I took as a kid.   

[Keith L]

To each their own.  Just know we will be looking at you funny from now on, after an admission like that.

[mcwoodduck]

LOL
Ok, after seeing the movie Hooper I wanted to be a stunt man when I was a kid and would jump and fall off trees, hills and cliffs.  Not to mention all the stupid stunts on the bike and the next door neighbors 50 cc motor cycle. 
Not to mention being a defense man in lacrosse where I would jump infron to of the ball every so often. Most of the time off of the brain bucket.  So does that explain the olt action comments?

[Keith L]

I guess so.  Truth be told I have a few as well, but don't tell anyone.

[JBC]

Well if you are looking at the bolt action guys funny then I must be a real freak because my .35 remington is a pump gun!! oh well, mine was my grandfather's remington 760 pump that I claimed when I turned 13 and inherited when he passed. I went thru my "bigger is better" phase in my late 20's but have since realized that at the distances that I hunt you have to ignore the paper ballistics and believe that the .35 just plain kill's them quick. Now don't shun me too badly I still love my leverguns I have an old 94 .32 special and a 94 ae .44 and am looking at a new in the box 94 xtr 30-30 from the mid eighties! but nothing seems to work as well as my old .35!!

[BBF]

Remington did have a bolt action carbine in 35 Rem for a while, either Model 600 or 660 I believe. As it is they decided to discontinue same as some other great models they had IE Mohawk and 788