Improvised projectiles.

[subdjoe]

I am thinking for quick and cheap projectiles for a 3 in. rifle using soup or vegetable cans filled with cement (not concrete).  The windage is about 1/16" on the lands. Groove depth is about .05".  Is the can tough enough to engage the rifleling?  Or would it just strip out as it goes down the tube?

I'm working on getting a mold made to cast my own 'trash can' bolts as was suggested to me some months ago.  But its taking some time to get things going (my wife isn't working, and work is very slow for me right now, so I can't afford to pay a machinist to make it), so I'm looking for something to use until then. 

[cannonmn]

I made my first trash can mold using a heavy cardboard tube, the kind large-format printing paper rolls come on.  It is at least 1/8 in. wall thickness maybe 3/16.  It was just under 3" i.d. as I recall.  I had a good supply of them so I used a bandsaw to cut them to about 5 or 6 inches length.  I used some kind of conical object (that was shaped so it would come out) as the core to make the cavity, might have been a solid nose plug from a 105MM howtizer projectile.  I used another piece of cardboard tube to make a spacer that centered the core inside the bottom of the tube section.  I sat the tube on a steel plate around the core and spacer ring and poured hot lead into the top of the tube.  There was no real top piece to the "mold" I just filled the tube to the top and topped it off slightly as the lead shrank down a bit on cooling.  There was lots of very stinky smoke, don't do it inside the house; garage might work.  The cardbard is charred but stays intact just long enough.  You peel the cardboard off after the stuff cools.  Believe it or not, they worked fairly well!  The rounds look a bit odd, flat noses, slightly raised spiral mark around the outside where the tube seam was, but they worked!  You could very easily make a top piece that fits inside the top of the tube, with a hole in it to pour lead in.  This, if made with a "stop" so it always seats the same depth on the tube, would give better consistency to the finished size.

The next one I made used a steel artillery cartridge case, I think 76mm, which we sawed off at top and bottom to take the diameter we wanted.  We then sawed a slit along the side and welded rectangular bar stock along each side of the slit so we had a raised surface where we could clamp the two sides together with a C clamp.  This was needed in order to remove the finished casting.  The cartridge case steel was "springy" so we could open up the sides a little to remove the casting.  We made a lathe-turned cone for the core with an increased diameter at bottom serving to locate and center the mold around the core.  The top plug had two diameters separated by a shoulder that centered it in the top, and had a pour hole in it.  That mold worked better and didn't smoke.  The mold wall thickness was only about 1/16 inch, if that, so it certainly isn't correct for a mold which should be much thicker, but it worked well for something we threw together in a few hours.

I still have the mold but it isn't at home so I can't take a pic of it now.

[moose53]

The soup cans with cement worked well in my 3in rifle. They are good for about 600 yards before powder blast disintegrates them. You can put cement in a Dixie cup and add it to the soup can for a nose when making them , it helps the projectile track better. They are for plinking ,if you consider shooting a 3in rifle plinking. Soup cans are fast and cheep, you can save your good shells for targets

[subdjoe]

Thanks.  You all got me thinking.  Schedule 80 pipe has an ID of 2.9 inches.  If I get a short piece of that, something to use to make the cavity, and something for a base plate (heck a piece of wood might work for a few, or some clay) then all I need is a source of lead.  Line the pipe with Al foil for a release.  Ditto for the central cone. 

There is a shoot in CAs Central Valley in late Feb. that I want to go to, I think the range is 200 to 400 yards.  Various targets, but not a competition.  Just bustin' some caps, as it were.

[Double D]

How are you going to get that slug out of the tube after you cast it. 

I would also think work with that bore diameter you might want to work with zinc and not lead and reduce your pressure and recoil factors

[dan610324]

just an small question in this topic :

when making slugs for rifled barrels , do you use soft pure lead or do you use wheel weights ??
do you add any tin in the alloy to prevent the lead fouling of the barrels ??

how does a slug made from wheel weights or zink engage the rifling ??
will it be  fully engraved ??

I have no experiance from rifled barrels in cannons , just from small firearms .
please let me know all your personal experiances .

[GGaskill]

With a muzzle loading rifled gun, the projectile must be smaller than bore diameter to be able to be loaded so they all have some feature that causes them to expand when the charge is fired.  Mine are basically Minie style with an expanding skirt but there were several other designs when rifled cannon became widely used.  Because the skirt has to expand, I use soft lead.

If the gun is a breech loader, then a simple driving band style would work best as there wouldn't be a long period of engraving to drive up pressure plus the shot would be pretty much aligned with the bore from the start.  This style would profit from using wheel weights or even zinc because of the greater strength of those materials.

[dan610324]

do you add any tin to prevent the lead foulings to build up as done with smaller handguns ??

if not , have you experianced any lead foulings in the barrel ??

is the wheel weights to hard to use for an minie design or a trash can design ??

[subdjoe]

just an small question in this topic :

when making slugs for rifled barrels , do you use soft pure lead or do you use wheel weights ??
do you add any tin in the alloy to prevent the lead fouling of the barrels ??

how does a slug made from wheel weights or zink engage the rifling ??
will it be  fully engraved ??

I have no experiance from rifled barrels in cannons , just from small firearms .
please let me know all your personal experiances .

The cups on the back of Civil War era bolts were variously copper, bronze, or soft iron.  I think some that had a band around the projectile even used paper mache' (sp?).  When the propellent charge goes of that projectile is hit with about 40,000 PSI, so just about any reasonably thin hollow base will obdurate into the rifling.  It doesn't have to engage for very long. 

I'll likely be using fishing weights, unless I can find a local source for scrap lead.  My concern with wheel weights would be that they may be too brittle and the thing might fragment when the charge goes off.  Might be an interesting varient on "buck and ball".

Double D asked: "How are you going to get that slug out of the tube after you cast it."

First I'll lube the hell out of the mold.  I SHOULD be able to slide it off after the lead has cooled some. There is just a touch of shrikage, not much, but enough. Or I may have to tap it out.  If that doesn't work I will try lining it with either foil or newspaper (maybe very slightly damp, and yes, I know it will generate steam, that is why damp, not wet).  Once I start I'll keep you updated, and if I can figure out how I'll take some photos and post them.  Look for early summer.   

[Artilleryman]

Don't use damp newspaper, dry should work fine and is safer.  Lube on the inside will not give you a very good casting.  It will leave all sorts of bubble marks.  I use to make lead hammers using paper towel tubes for a mold by sticking the handle through a X cut in the side.   The tubes scorched put held long enough.  I just peeled the tubes off afterwards.

[moose53]

One possible way to use a pipe for a mold is the slit the side and weld on a take up bolt , then simply undo the bolt and the lead will fall out. You can bore the inside diameter of the pipe to make it round and the correct size.                                                                                                   

[subdjoe]

Thanks for the suggestions.  I don't have access to a machine shop to do some of the things I would like to do, unfortunatley.  Otherwise this would be a lot easier and I wouldn't be asking how to do this on the cheap. 

BUT, I'm thinking that I'm doing this the hard way. If I make up a jig to hold a core inside a can, then just pour into the can, all I have to do is pull the core out.  Wrap the core with paper to make extraction easier. 

The can, with its OD of about 2.9 inches, is about perfect.  If I use a core of about 2 1/2 inches or so diameter and about 2 1/2 inches long (the can is about 4 1/4 inches tall), that will give me the hollow base.  I found a source for lead at 30 cent/lb.  Now I just need a burner. 

[Tropico]

moose53 That is cool . Thank You  !!!

[dan610324]

collect old car batteries from your friends and you will have plenty of lead for free .
thats pure soft lead
Im not sure about cannons , but for small firearms I always use 2-3% tin in the alloy to all muzzle loading weapons.
to modern veapons I use 4-6% tin and 94-96% printing types from an old printshop .
got approximately 1200 pounds (540 kilo) of those printing types a few years ago when an old local printshop went bankrupsy here in town . got it for free just I took it away .
the ways  to get scrap lead is many , you just need some luck 
I bought 650 pounds of soldering tin a few years ago when they closed an old regiment close to me ,
I only paid approximately 150 us dollar for that on an auction .

[GGaskill]

American car batteries these days are not a good source of lead for bullets or shot.  Besides the acid exposure, there is calcium in the battery lead and that makes it no good for projectiles.