Author Topic: Can't get This Rifle to Shoot, Some Help Please (Read 2991 times)

Val · « **on:** January 14, 2009, 03:06:12 PM »

I have a very nice looking 257 Roberts with an old Japanese Arisaka 38 Action. This gun has a nice sporterized stock and the action has been reblued. I don't know if the barrel is original and has been reamed out to 257 Roberts or it's a replacement barrel. I took a Leupold scope off of another gun (my 25-06) and installed it on the Arisaka. The rifle had a 2 1/2 power 7/8" diameter scope on it. The scope base is an old Redfield and the 1" rings from Leupold fit this base. A dove Tail forward and the rear ring had the two screws on the side that install the ring and allow for Azimuth adjustment. The base and rings seem to be rock solid. I tried some loads using IMR 4831 and IMR 4895 powders. The IMR 4831 was yielding 6 to 8 inch groups. The IMR 4895 didn't do much better but I did get one 2 1/2 inch group. My last group with the IMR 4895 was a 1 1/4" group but it was 14" to the right of my aim point. I surmized that clearly the scope went bad on me, right?

I went back to the range today and I installed a Redfield 3X9 that was sitting in my safe onto this Arisaka, good looking rifle. I achieved 10" groups with the changed out scope. I reinstalled the Leupold scope back on the 25-06 where I got it from and my first group was 3/8" followed by a 1/2" group. The scope was performing great.

During the two shooting periods I also removed the stock and removed some material in the stock to insure that the barrel was free floating.

Any help and suggestions on what to do will be appreciated.

james · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2009, 02:12:27 AM »

Sounds like something is loose when it shoots big groups then the recoil sets it in the same spot and it is able to shoot small groups. The rings could be putting the scopes in a bind also so make sure they are not twisted. I would loc-tite the mounts first then start tightening and loosening screws on the stock. And eventually bed the stock. It will be a process of elimination but it appears the rifle is capable of good accuracy with some tuning.

Lone Star · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2009, 04:59:09 PM »

You can't "ream out" an original Arisaka barrel to .257 Roberts. The bore diameter was nominally 0.264" and you can't shrink it. That could be your whole problem, trying to shoot .257" bullets through a .264" barrel. There was a wildcat chambering called the 6.5-.257 Roberts, perhaps that is what your rifle really is. Slug the bore and see what the actual diameter is.

.

trotterlg · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2009, 07:13:47 PM »

Take one of your loaded rounds, place it bullet down into the muzzel, if it goes it and touches the brass neck then that is the problem. Larry

Val · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2009, 04:53:26 AM »

Quote from: trotterlg on January 15, 2009, 07:13:47 PM

Take one of your loaded rounds, place it bullet down into the muzzel, if it goes it and touches the brass neck then that is the problem. Larry

I did as you suggested and the bullet goes in about 1/8" short of touching the brass. The barrel maybe a new replacement barrel. Although the only marking on the barrel is a hand stamped and mispelled 257 ROBTS. I believe it's hand stamped because the letters and numbers do not line up in a straight line. There are no other markings on this barrel. About 4 1/2 inches up the barrel from the chamber is a kind of collar that wraps around the barrel that is held in place with some screws on the bottom of the barrel inside the stock barrel channel. It appears to be a mount for an iron sight. This collar device that I believe is an iron sight mount has the word marble stamped on it.

Keep your thoughts coming. I'm sure the expertise on this forum will allow me to conquer this rifle and make it a shooter. Thanks, gentlemen.

Val · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2009, 04:56:43 AM »

To slug the barrel, what do I use? Someone told me to use a lead ball but what kind of lead would be soft enough to force down the barrel? Would a lead fishing sinker work?

LHitchcox · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:02:46 AM »

Check out what Lonestar said. After WWII, the boys brought a lot of Arisakas back as souvenirs. There was no source of Jap ammo or brass, so being ingenious the simply rechambered the guns for an available case. The .257 Roberts filled the bill nicely. There is enough difference in bullet diameter to cause grief. A gunsmith should have marked the barrel of the change.

You may indeed have a true .257 however. Slug the barrel to verify.

Leon

Slowpoke Slim · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:33:48 PM »

I don't think bore diameter is the problem guys. He says the bullet drops to 1/8 inch of the casemouth and stops. That sounds about right to me (depending on bullet seating depth of course). I think the problem is somewhere else, bedding, barrel pressure from stock forend, etc.

What condition is the rifling in on that barrel? Any pitting? Bore nice and bright, corners on rifling nice and sharp?

Also, what weight bullets are you shooting, and have you tried different weights? If it's a post-war custom, you might have a slow twist barrel that doesn't shoot bullets over 90-100 gr weights. Are the primer strikes all uniform looking? Do you have access to a chronograph to clock some loads looking for velocity deviations?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:44:49 PM »

Here ya go on bore slugging, just use an appropriate sized soft lead(not hard non-lead) egg sinker.

Tim

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

jcn59 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2009, 06:32:57 PM »

I wonder if the action screws are too long. This is probably the first thing you checked. Huh? Or maybe a cracked bolt lug? Need magnifying glass to see.

Val · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2009, 07:34:13 PM »

Gentlemen,
I really appreciate your comments and suggestions. The crown and rifleing look real good on this rifle, that's why I believe it's an after market rifle barrel and not the origianal Arisaka barrel. The barrel looks pretty new compared to the action. A gunsmith looked at the crown and rifleing and commented that it looks good. I'm gping to run the sinker through the barrel. The tutorial on checking the bore was excellent.

After examing the inside of the stock after I removed the barrel and action, and examing the action itself and finding some wear marks in the metal (shiny spots where the blueing rubbed off), it became evident that there is some movement of the action in the stock. I've never bedded a rifle but I'm reading on how to do it. I'm going to bed the area of the recoil lug which is a cylindrical shape where the stock screw enters the action from below. The cylindrical recoil lug/stock screw device fits into a metal recepticle that is embedded in the stock. The barrel is well floating forward of the iron sight mount which is about 4 1/2" forward of the chamber but I noted that aft of the iron sight mount to the recoil lug/screw receptical the barrel in the channel is not floated. I'm going to float that part of the barrel. I'll also bed the area of the rear stock screw and a couple of areas in the area where movemnt is evident on the chamber.

It will take a while to do all this stuff since I've never done it before but I will try and proceed with extreme caution.
Ill report back and let you know my progress.

Thanks again for your help.

Val

Val · « **Reply #11 on:** January 22, 2009, 12:51:54 PM »

Still can get this rifle to shoot. I did the egg sinker thing and the bore measured out to .256, seems pretty good for a .257 Roberts I did the bedding on the recoil lug area, I think it's the recoil lug since it doesn't look like the recoil lug on a modern rifle. It a cylinder that fits into a metal insert that is in the stock. The stock mounting screw goes in from the bottom of the stock and holds the stock on. It's almost like a pillar bed hardware. I also removed some material and added some glass bedding on the rails that sit on the stock just forward of the trigger assembly on either side of the magazine. I saw some wear marks on the action in this area. Well, the froups did improve from about 20" to 12" three shot groups. I definitely did not fix this rifle.

I noted that the front of the stock with respect to the barrel moved pretty easily when I presses the stock (barrel has been free floated). I loosened the stock and put some business cards between the barrel and stock to see if the gun liked a pressure point up forward. This didn't change anything.

I'm open for some more suggestion, please.

Val

torpedoman · « **Reply #12 on:** January 22, 2009, 01:28:47 PM »

the problem may be your action. It requires a quality action to build a quality rifle

Slowpoke Slim · « **Reply #13 on:** January 22, 2009, 05:00:05 PM »

What weight bullets are you trying?

If it's an early custom, say soon after the war, you may well have a slow twist barrel. You may try bullets in the 80-90 gr range and see if that's any better.

jcn59 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 22, 2009, 05:39:27 PM »

Make sure the action is bedded ROCK SOLID from about an inch behind the front action screw to about 2-3 inches in front of the action on the barrel. Tighten the front action screw very snug. Not gorilla tight, but darned tight. This would be at least 40 inch/pounds up to a max of 65 inch pounds. The rear action screw should seat the action but just tighten it snug. Don't torque on it. Free float the barrel.

Be sure head space is correct. Take your fired cases and size them about 2/3 of the way down the neck; don't full-length resize.

If it doesn't shoot now, you can experiment with rear action screw torque and fore end pressure. Use bullets of a weight you expect to shoot for the purpose you bought the rifle.

If it won't shoot now, you might be wasting your time. I had a new Ruger .300 Rem short ultra mag that started around 4-5 inches at 100 yards (3 shots) and after alot of work and experimentation, it would shoot a pretty consistent 3.5 inches at 100 yards. The barrel looked perfect. (to me) I got rid of it.

Others here have more expertise than me. Maybe they can elaborate on my thoughts.

Val · « **Reply #15 on:** January 23, 2009, 04:58:25 AM »

I've been trying 100 grain bullets. Nosler Partitions, Ballistic Tips and Barnes TSX. I believe all the Arisaka M38s were manufactured in the 1930s. The Arisakas are known for being an extremely strong quality action. I don't have a head space gauge but the fired cases look real good thus I think the head sace is good. ith 12" groups I would think I was out of the realm of the wrong weigh bullet, don't you think?

jcn59 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 23, 2009, 06:36:15 AM »

I suppose the Arisaka is controlled round feed. If headspace is bad, the extractor will usually hold the cartridge head safely against the bolt face regardless of slightly oversize headspace. You may get some light firing pin strikes. So you can't assume headspace is good just because the cases look okay. That's why I recommended the partial neck-size routine.

Arisakas are believed to be a very STRONG action with the exception of some questionable late war stuff. They are NOT known to be a quality action.

If the rifling rate of twist was too slow for heavy bullets the targets might show evidence of the bullet "key-holing". This kind of grouping (12") isn't just from the wrong bullet weight.

To me, a 12" group at a hundred yards suggests big problems. I have never seen a rifle that shoots this poorly. On the other hand, on January 14th, you said you got a 1 1/4" group with IMR 4895. It would be unusual for a "bad" barrel to shoot a group that small, with a history of groups up to 12".

The rifle is probably 50 + years old if it had a 7/8" scope on it. I think the stock wood dried out and got smaller (shrinkage). If someone thought enough of it to give it nice bluing and a nice stock plus the other work that was done, it probably shot well enough to warrant the investment of time and money when the work was done.

If it was my gun, I would glass bed the action according to the instructions on the bedding kit, make sure that the action screws aren't too long, and they don't bottom out in the receiver, and make sure the "pillars" aren't too long, preventing the action screws from drawing the action in to the stock.

backstrap · « **Reply #17 on:** January 23, 2009, 03:16:38 PM »

Sound's to me like it's time to sale it and get something else

Val · « **Reply #18 on:** January 24, 2009, 03:32:41 AM »

Backstrap,
I have more than a dozen rifles in the safe. It's just bugging me that I can't get this rifle to shoot. It's a nice looking rifle with a Timney trigger and a new looking barrel. Trying to get it to shoot is more of a learning expierence. I bedded the stock and it was my first bedding job. I bedded the area in the recoil lug area (I think that the cylindrical shaped protrusion that doubles as a mounting screw recepticle is the recoil lug) and the area on either side of the trigger. Does anyone think that bedding additional areas on the stock will help? I'll probably take it to a gunsmith and get the headspace checked since I don't have gauges.

jcn59 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2009, 04:38:50 AM »

A challenge like this is a valuable learning experience, applicable to other rifles, regardless of the outcome on this particular rifle. Isn't it?

alsaqr · « **Reply #20 on:** January 24, 2009, 07:25:57 AM »

Quote

About 4 1/2 inches up the barrel from the chamber is a kind of collar that wraps around the barrel that is held in place with some screws on the bottom of the barrel inside the stock barrel channel. It appears to be a mount for an iron sight

Read where you floated the barrel. Some guns will not shoot well without some upward pressure on the barrel hear the forend tip. Take a piece of thick paper like a business card and place it under the barrel about 1" from the tip of the wood stock. Fold the paper so that some upward pressure is maintained on the barrel. Do not over do it.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2009, 09:10:44 AM »

My Persian carbine did this trick. It would group ok with factory stuff, which I had precious little of, but handloads were 1.5inch groups one day and 12inches the next. I did all the pressure points and screw checking and shimming and different bullets and powders. Nothing gave consistent results. I read an article in a gun magazine about manufacturer's tolerances in making reloading dies. The local trading post gave me a new sizing die to try, and it worked. That was over 25 years ago, and it still groups consistently in the 1-1.5" area. But it took me 20 years (1963-1983) to figure this all out. It was worth the effort!

This may or may not have anything to do your particular problem, but it looks like some of the same symptoms.

Regards,
Sweetwater

Bigeasy · « **Reply #22 on:** January 24, 2009, 10:04:10 AM »

Val -

Its hard to diagnose an accuracy problem without a little hands on. Having said that, I do not think bedding, pressure points, ammo selection, etc. are your primary problem. The rifle seems to show a lot of inconsistency, and that is almost always a bad scope / mount. That is the area I would concentrate on. It;s incredable how little movement in a scope mount, or slight defect in a scope can become magnified at 100 yards.

I once had a .243 Ruger 77 that could not do better then 5 to 7 inches. New rifle, new Nikon scope, half a dozen different loads, lots of fiddling around, and it just wouldn't shoot. In desperation, tried an old Tasco scope I had laying around. 3/4 inch groups. In Nikons defence, they fell all over themselves to make it right.

Val · « **Reply #23 on:** January 24, 2009, 11:01:56 AM »

Gentlemen,
Continued appreciation and thanks for your comments and insight. The scope base is very solid, 2 out of 3 of the screws are frozen in place at my initial attempt to remove and reinstall the base. I checked and verified that the scope rings are properly aligned and solidly installed. I actually removed and replaced the first scope I installed and replaced it with another with no improvement. I'm going to try some more loads with neck sized brass which should rule out the sizing dies. I will indeed try the folded business card trick to see if a pressure point up front is needed. I tried that before but Ihad the business cards all the way to the front of the stock forend with no help.

An additional piece of information, I measured the twist rate and got a 12 to 1 twist rate. I'll try some loads with a lighter bullet, maybe my twist rate is too slow for the 100 grain bullets.

I hope some of you are losing sleep over this rifle like I am. Keep your thoughts and ideas coming please.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #24 on:** January 24, 2009, 11:47:10 AM »

The sizing die needs to put a "firm" grip on the bullet. My first die put a firm grip on some but not others. Created inconsistent velocities and a scatter pattern on the target. When all this came to light, I found I could feel it while sizing. Some cases were tight on the expander plug and some cases hardly touched it at all. The cause was using cases of various neck thickness with a sizing die that was on the big side. The new sizing die was of a tighter tolerance and worked wonderfully and still does. Just something else to not overlook. Your neck-sizing may not work if you have the same condition that I had.

Regards,
Sweetwater

*ROCK-MAN* · « **Reply #25 on:** January 25, 2009, 06:28:59 AM »

You may try shooting the rifle with a cold barrel without moving the scope settings to see if it is moving as it is heating up?If your hitting closer to the same spot cold than trying to group a number of shots the barrel is probably touching the stock or something of the sort.

hummer58 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 28, 2009, 07:43:04 AM »

1:12 rifling twist try an 85 to 87 grian bullet with IMR 4064 powder. That twist is too slow for heavy bullets.

Val · « **Reply #27 on:** January 28, 2009, 08:54:15 AM »

I ordered some Barnes TSX pellets with the polymer tips from Graf & Sons. I should get them next week. I got excellent results with the TSX in my .243 and 25-06. I'm having to develop nonlead loads because in the Republik of Kalifornia we have the Condor Range where nonlead is required. Much of the hunting in Kalifornia is "Condor Range". I'll report back when I try some of these 80 grain TSX bullets.

auk1124 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 07, 2009, 01:57:56 PM »

If the light bullets don't do it and multiple scopes don't tighten up groups, my vote is also for the scope mount. Kinda sounds like a scope mount screw may be bottoming out or something. Judging by the lettering on the barrel I bet the rifle was sporterized by a shade-tree gunsmith many moons ago, and there's no telling what could be going on with the mount.

torpedoman · « **Reply #29 on:** February 07, 2009, 05:47:52 PM »

go over the bolt lugs with a black marker and work the bold a few times and check the wear pattern on the locking lugs if there is no wear on them were they are locking up that may be the problem.