Author Topic: Flintlocks (Read 4392 times)

Badnews Bob · « **on:** January 16, 2009, 07:43:23 AM »

I reading around and speculating alot and it seems to me that a flintlock maybe a good thing to have in the future. It may be the only firearm a simple person can keep in action after they take everything else away from us, Powder and bullets can be made at home (that is if you can find the right raw materials) Flint isn't hard to find at least not around here, and there are other stones that will make a spark, you can walk up and down a road or two and find slung wheel weights. I think learning how to make a good powder would be the hardest part but you can make your own potasium nitrate(salt peter) and charcoal, sulfer can be distilled from a well or found at mineral springs but is also readilly available in stores.

I think a .36 to 50 cal pistol and rifle would be good but better may be a .60 cal musket or shotgun in 20 or 12 guage. you have the option of shot, buck, buck n ball,or just ball. Those old muskets kept alot of people feed back when. You would not be well armed by todays standards but you might be by tommarows. I think learnig old skills is prudent, What comes around, you all know the sayings.

I believe I am gonna start with a pistol to learn the skills involved but I see a flinchlock in my future.

I think some primative bowyer skill may be worth learning also.

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2009, 06:29:40 PM »

I think a cap lock and a thousand or two caps would be a smarter choice. You don't need ffffg for the pan and it goes off with greater regularity. Flint might be easy there but isn't available here at all.

pab1 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2009, 08:06:40 PM »

I think a .62 cal smoothbore would be a good choice. Shot loads will handle smaller game up to turkey and a .62 caliber ball will down big game.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:41:47 AM »

GB,As for a caplock, You might be right there, There must be a way to make caps to and your ignition is better with them. .62cal smoothbore is probably a good choice also.

Swampman · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:49:29 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on January 16, 2009, 06:29:40 PM

I think a cap lock and a thousand or two caps would be a smarter choice. You don't need ffffg for the pan and it goes off with greater regularity. Flint might be easy there but isn't available here at all.

Me too, I shot flintlocks only for over 20 years and there a good reason they were abandoned as soon as the caplock came along. Here's my favorite. This gun is about as simple and as accurate as it gets. It uses #11 caps and I paid $100.00 for it. A round ball mold, homemade powder, and some caps will keep this puppy running for years.

flintlock · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2009, 08:33:06 AM »

The flintlock was used to ignite firearms longer than any other ignition system...
If the lock and rifle are properly made they are not flinchlocks nor are they unreliable...
I've shot, made and studied these arms for about 30 years...The percussion system was
actually slow to take hold and was only in use a few decades before cartridge guns made it obsolete...

I have about 100 flints stuck back from the mid-80s, a few pounds of powder and plenty of free lead that my dentist gave me...I have a .54 and a .40...I believe a small bore would be a better choice than a smooth bore...It only takes 20-25 grs of powder for the small bore to be a good squirrel rifle and with 50-60grs you can take deer quite easily...

Go with FFF powder, no need for FFFF powder to prime, I've actually used FF for both main charge and prime with good results as well...

Swampman · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2009, 11:18:46 AM »

Quote

The percussion system was actually slow to take hold and was only in use a few decades before cartridge guns made it obsolete...

I've heard this many times, but historical records show that it isn't factual. Those who could not afford
or obtain caps did continue to use flintlocks because they had no choice. Having used them (flintlocks) extensively and having owned some very fine pieces built by the best, I do not feel they are esp. reliable. To get one worth owning you'll spend at least $800.00. The mass produced pieces are an abomination. The novice will have a 2 year learning curve.

flintlock · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2009, 11:41:43 AM »

I've never owned a factory made flintlock, I've repaired a few and was most unimpressed...

I used Jim Chambers locks on the ones I make and if your's aren't reliable then they weren't made properly, I've never had one not fire in a hunting situation...It sure didn't take me 2 years to learn how to use one, just like I had done it before...

Jamestown flintlock rifles made in this area were still being produced into the 1840s...
I've seen many discussions in the Trad Muzzleloading website about flintlocks at the Alamo (1836)...Seems no one can document a percussion gun at that battle...

What are your historical sources??? They flintlock was in production by 1600 and in common use into the 1840s and in parts of the Appalachians into the early 1900s...So we are looking at over 200 and close to 250 years of use...

Swampman · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2009, 12:10:58 PM »

I've owned at least 4 longrifles with Jim Chambers locks built by folks you'd probably know well. They fired perfectly probably 97-98% of the time. That's not good enough. Fur trade records show a very rapid decline in flint sales and a huge rise in prercussion cap sales over the space of a year or two. The Hawkin brothers probably never made a flintlock that went west. While very romantic, they just aren't that reliable.

Been there and done that for many many years.

mannyrock · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2009, 12:30:52 PM »

For goodness sakes, the fact that flintlocks were made, sold and used up through the entire 19th century in the Appalachians doesn't meant that they were superior to the caplock. They were plainly inferior and were and have been supplanted in overwhelming numbers by the caplock up through this very day.

Was the 1853 Colt Navy percussion a superior firearm to the Colt 1873 Peacemaker in .45 Long Colt, just because people continued to buy Colt Navy's, and use them and enjoy them well into the 1890s? No.

Manny

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2009, 01:32:03 PM »

Which one is better has nothing to do with my topic, At all. I was just trying to point out that you can make do with a flintlock because you can make most every thing you need to use one. If you drop your stash of cap in a river can you make new ones? Not very easy, you can however find flint and make new ones for your rifle. What is better dose not matter in this scenerio what will work to feed you dose.

I hope the day never comes that I can't by centerfires, But I do plan on being ready if I can't. I don't care what it looks like or who made it as long as it will feed and defend me.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2009, 01:36:59 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on January 17, 2009, 12:10:58 PM

Fur trade records show a very rapid decline in flint sales and a huge rise in prercussion cap sales over the space of a year or two.

You are right Swampman, But I am not talkin about yesterday. I am talking about the day after next week when you may not be able to buy caps because our corrupt goverment want to take them away from us. Or something worse.

Just because I am gonna learn a new skill dosen't mean I am giving up my modern fire arms.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2009, 01:41:29 PM »

Quote from: flintlock on January 17, 2009, 08:33:06 AM

If the lock and rifle are properly made they are not flinchlocks nor are they unreliable...

I call them flinchlocks not because there is something wrong with the rifle but because of that spark shower and fump going off right about in you face, Watch a new person shoot one and see them flinch.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2009, 01:46:38 PM »

The flintlock was invented around 1612 and the caplock was invented in 1805.

Swampman · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2009, 01:48:35 PM »

Romance won't keep you alive. Good luck with your new skill.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:16:56 PM »

I laugh when I hear people talk about home made black powder. Dream on. Powder making is a science, and EVERY great powder making family has lost members to explosions.

If you want something that will be shooting for the rest of your life and your child's life, buy a .22 LR and 10,000 rounds of ammunition. You can get it for the same price as a good quality flintlock rifle alone, and save yourself the expense of buying lead, molds, and caps if that's your preference. Also much easier to learn.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:31:03 PM »

I made some black powder in high school, flashed while I was making it, singed the hair on my hand and head. Smoked up the house. It was in the winter, and I had to open the house and turn on fans to air out the smoke. My parents never knew. 10,000 rounds of .22 LR would last a long time. In a pinch in a SHTF situation, you can kill a deer by shooting it in the head.

Learning to use a bow and making arrows might be easier than making bp.

If you reload, maybe if you had several thousand primers, a lot of brass, you could reload bp in .44 mag, 45 LC, 0r 45-70 and this might be a better option. You can carry a hand reloader, power measure for caliber, a lead mold and a pound of powder in an ammo can. You could cast your own bullets and load them. Loose powder is more susceptible to moisture.

flintlock · « **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:48:13 PM »

I'd rather have a .22 as well, have killed several deer with one when I was a kid...Plus it's quiet, especially with shorts...

Getting back to flintlocks...If you have a well made flintlock and it doesn't go off then it's due to operator error, not the gun...

We BS about survival skills...In 1769 Daniel Boone went to Kentucky and returned 2 YEARS later...He had a flintlock in his hands...He died in 1820 at the age of 85...

None of us will ever spend as many days in the wilderness trying to survive than he did...

Swampman · « **Reply #18 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:52:44 PM »

Powder isn't hard to make.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #19 on:** January 17, 2009, 05:09:10 PM »

No, powder isn't hard to make. I was using powdered sugar instead of charcoal for the carbon in the powder. I had bought some saltpeter at the local drug store, and had some sulfer out of a chemistry set. I was mixing it up when I did something wrong and it flashed. You can get saltpeter and sulfer from a feed and seed store. You may have to make the charcoal from hardwood. Don't know how bad it can get before the rapture.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #20 on:** January 17, 2009, 07:37:47 PM »

Quote from: Dixie Dude on January 17, 2009, 05:09:10 PM

No, powder isn't hard to make. I was using powdered sugar instead of charcoal for the carbon in the powder. I had bought some saltpeter at the local drug store, and had some sulfer out of a chemistry set. I was mixing it up when I did something wrong and it flashed. You can get saltpeter and sulfer from a feed and seed store. You may have to make the charcoal from hardwood. Don't know how bad it can get before the rapture.

If you're going to buy sulfur and saltpeter, why not just skip the high school chemistry stunts and make an ammo fort out of .22 LR?

cbl51 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 18, 2009, 02:13:05 AM »

I can see where a flintlock would work, and its cool that you can if need be, amke all what you need. But if I was going to plan on a suvival gun, I think I want something more reliable, compact, and weather proof. Most flintlocks are fairly large heavy guns, needing larger heavy bullets. I don't want to sacrafice something else in the way of supplies for feed a large bore rifle. Besides, if its a shtf type of senerio, I want something with fast second and third or more shots in case of two legged varmits cutting in n my survival chances.

As I see it, yes a flintlock will work if that all we have left to us by the powers that be. But even in Soviet Russia, the peasants were allowed to have bolt action .22 rifles or single shot break open shotguns. Since I don't forsee a time in my lifetime that the 2d amendment will be tossed, I'll go with a lightweight synthetic stocked .22 rifle and lots of ammo. I don't think anything surpases the wide range of roles a .22 will fill. Small game, and deer. I read in his biography, Audie Murphy kept his family fed when he was a kid, using a .22 rifle. One time he got a deer right in the head, dropped it right there, and a game warden came along. Audie told the warden his family was hungrey, so don't try to stop him. The warden let him slide. Audie was 12 or 13 at the time.

But, hey, if I'm wrong and the gov't takes the cartridge guns away from us, then I guess I'll be priming the pan with the rest of ya.

I'll still have my air rifles.

gstewart44 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 18, 2009, 03:20:07 PM »

While I love my flintlock, I would not want to have to rely upon it for survival/subsistence. There are no flints where I live and the humidity is an obstacle.

I did try to make BP one time when I was 20-something and fearless. I ended up with a face full of soot, with my eyebrows and mustache singed down to nubs. Thank God I had on my Aviator style lenses or I may have lost my sight.

I make it a point to pick up a brick of 500 22 LR shells every time I hit Wally World. I will have it "just in case". And as others have said 10,000 22's will last a long time.

mannyrock · « **Reply #23 on:** January 18, 2009, 03:37:42 PM »

And, if I might add, if the day ever came that the govt outlawed possession of .22LR, then it would also outlaw the possession of black powder, and the acquisition, storage or possession of black powder ingredients with intent to make black powder. So, stockpiling either 22 ammo or black powder components would be a hefty crime. Accordingly, on a theoretical basis, if someone were going to break the law one way or another, they would be a fool not to choose the .22LR route.

myronman3 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 26, 2009, 09:54:58 AM »

i encourage all to make their points to other members in a respectful manner. a few posts are getting close to the line.
that aside, there are some very well thought out points.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #25 on:** January 26, 2009, 09:19:51 PM »

percussion locks came out in i believe 1807 *patent*. Flintlocks were Widely used into the 1820's. You can always find a rock that sparks if you run out of flint or lose the extras. Out in the wild, you cant find what you need to make them darned tiny little caps that are easily dropped with cold fingers.

With a flintlock you now basically have one thing to contend with, that being Black powder. 3f is all you need for both the main charge and even the pan primer. Using screens you can easily get anything from 1f on up to the finest dust possibly. I have the info on how to make it, it would just take A LOT of typing.

Flinters are just as fast as caplock when the shooter knows what hes doing. I've had the fuse effect many times in my .50cal kentucky but thats only because i was using a subsitute black powder. Pyrodex P actually works pretty good too, i still need 4f for the pan but the main charge of pyro P goes Ka-bang.

With a flintlock you can also use it to start a fire with. Ive used mine a couple times just to try it out and its pretty fun getting your fire going that way.

And if'n you dont like what i got to say or dont want to use a measly .22

Go injun and get a Bow N Arrow.

Swampman · « **Reply #26 on:** February 03, 2009, 11:39:48 AM »

Quote

Because flintlocks would fire successfully approximately 7 times out of 10 in dry weather and under good conditions, percussion rifles were gradually accepted because of their much greater reliability. Percussion rifles, pistols, and caps were first advertised in St. Louis in 1831. In 1832, Lucien Fontenelle ordered 500 percussion caps for his rifle, and Andrew Drips ordered a spare percussion lock for his rifle. In December of 1834, while encamped in the Columbia Valley Nathaniel Wyeth's party converted three flintlock rifles to percussion. Wyeth writes "...during this time we percussioned 3 rifles, our powder being so badly damaged as to render flintlocks useless." (The Correspondence and Journals of Captain Nathaniel J Wyeth, 1831-6, p 238). Converting these guns while in the mountains suggests that the skills, parts and tools for making such conversions were neither unusual or difficult. Wyeth also expressed this opinion about flintlocks in his journal, "...our hunters are more conceited than good....and commonly have miserable flint guns which snap continually and afford an excuse for not killing." Wyeth may have been planning to offer a flintlock conversion service at the post he established in the mountain (click here for more thoughts on this). By 1834 gun dealers in St. Louis were advertising large quantities of percussion caps as stock on hand. Jos. Charless, Jr. advertised 200,000 caps, and H.L.Hoffman & Co. 280,000 caps. In 1836 Mead & Adriance advertised "1 million percussion caps." Even after widespread adoption of the percussion system, some of the old frontiersman continued to prefer flint ignition. In the mid 1850's its reported that Old Bill Williams and Rube Rawlins continued to use flintlock rifles.

S.S. · « **Reply #27 on:** February 03, 2009, 05:44:00 PM »

Black powder is quite easy to make? It is harder to get the materials than to make the powder.
Making the chared coal(wood) takes the longest amount of time. I actually use pine cones now.
they char well and are plentiful where I live.
An old rock polisher makes a great ball mill and a hand full of 00 buckshot grinds and mixes
it up perfectly. I do however cheat a little and use rubbing alcohol to ball it up into
cakes. The alcohol evaporates really fast and cuts down drying time. corn it into grains
by rubbing it on a piece of screen wire. I have never conquered the art of glazing the grains though.
My first matchlock was never once fired with factory made powder. My hand Gonne hasn't been either.
I was even firing scaled down hale rockets with my powder about 30 years ago. I did however
have one of those accidents someone referred to above. Lost a nice shirt and some belly fat
to the back-blast of one of those little suckers.

shootercochran · « **Reply #28 on:** March 19, 2009, 10:48:38 AM »

If you do the study you will find that the old trappers and hunters held onto the flintlocks as long as possible. they could prime the pan with there powder and din't have to buy expensive caps.

Black powder is easy to make. Not for me, but it is easy and useful to make for some people.

Flintlocks are probubly the best option for survival we have. But it cost alot to get started.

At least 300 for a rifle, 100 for powder, 200 for all the acesorries like bullet moulds, lead, jags, flint, cleaning equipment and alot more.

SO... I like other's have said, go for the .22.

A .22 bolt action marlin, with several thousand rounds of ammo is alot cheaper than a flintlock. And in some cases may be cheaper.

Maybe people should learn to reload also. Buy a lee loader for $20 and you can reload .30-06 cartridges many many many many many times. Almost as good as a muzzleloader.

pab1 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 19, 2009, 07:12:52 PM »

Backwoodsman magazine had a good article on flinters in their last issue. They made some good points for having one around.