Flintlocks

[Swampman]

Hawken rifles, manufactured in St. Louis were made as flintlocks up until 1834-35 when the caplocks became the "newest" and more efficient way to go.

There are no known flintlock Hawken rifles.

1816 US Military Muskets were converted to caplock asap.

[SHOOTALL]

check out www.xmission.com~drudy/mtman/musem/guns/guns/html
Scroll to Hawkin Rifle . Swampman it agrees with both you and I . I stated that most mt men did not use the Hawkin as it cost to much and most mt men did not trust the new fangaled cap .
I would have to say we were comparing apples and oranges !

[SHOOTALL]

typo should read it stated not i stated

[gstewart44]

Hawken rifles, manufactured in St. Louis were made as flintlocks up until 1834-35 when the caplocks became the "newest" and more efficient way to go.

There are no known flintlock Hawken rifles.

1816 US Military Muskets were converted to caplock asap.

When Jacob Hawken arrived in St. Louis in 1818, the town was still a tiny fur trading outpost on the edge of the wilderness. St. Louis was just starting to be known as the logical supply point for people headed west, due to its excellent location along natural overland and water routes. Hawken came to St. Louis from Harpers Ferry, Virginia (today's West Virginia), where he, his father and brothers were gunsmiths in the federal armory. It is probable that Jacob learned his gun-making skills during his years in the armory, skills he brought to St. Louis in 1818. A commercial hub such as St. Louis provided Hawken with the supplies he needed to repair and manufacture firearms. Hawken befriended James Lakenan, another local gunsmith, who, according to local records, operated a shop at the corner of Hickory and First Streets — about one block west of the Mississippi River levee.

During the early years of Hawken's St. Louis trade, he made rifles with the flintlock ignition system, later converting to the new percussion system in the 1830s. Hawken manufactured a larger caliber weapon, different from the popular "Pennsylvania" or "Kentucky" rifle. These rifles were not powerful enough to kill large western game such as grizzly bears, bison and moose, whereas the Hawkens fired a larger ball.

Unfortunately, only one known example of a Hawken flintlock rifle has survived. This was made by Jacob's younger brother Samuel, who operated a gunsmith shop in Hagerstown, Maryland, and later moved to Xenia, Ohio. This full-stock Hawken flintlock is believed to be a pre-1825 model. It bears the trademark "S. Hawken" on the barrel, and is currently in a private collection.

Springfield Armory states the conversion of the 1816 musket took place in a 12+ year period starting in the late 1840's as a result of the excellent performance of the Mississippi Rifle in that conflict.   12 yrs is ASAP in glacial time.

[Swampman]

There is no proof that Hawken rifles as we know them were ever built as flintlocks.  The one possible example, is now percussion & thought by many to have been built as a percussion rifle.

Old myths die hard.

[gstewart44]

There is no proof that Hawken rifles as we know them were ever built as flintlocks.  The one possible example, is now percussion & thought by many to have been built as a percussion rifle.

Old myths die hard.

Swampman  - I have read the publication that you cite as a source for your knowledge and on another page in your same source it does state "The earliest clearly documented sale of a production Hawken Rifle was an order for 18 rifles by the American Fur Company in 1831.  At least some of these rifles were percussion.". This is among other references to the Hawken Brothers making of rifles back to at least 1825.

http://home.att.net/~mman/JSHawken.htm

I guess the "old myths" that  you refer to are in your source and haven't died because they contain some truth to them after all. 

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

those Hawkens were unsafe too. I read about a mountain man having his hand blown off when his hawken barrel came apart during battle. 

[SHOOTALL]

good thing it happened then and not now ! the lawyers would have a field day

[Swampman]

Odd that none of them survived.  The Hawken shop may have provided flintlocks made by others.

[pastorp]

Well this is what I have a couple of marlin 39s and a large stash of 22lr. Of course I've got other guns tuched away as well.

A BP 12 gague and a colt navy just in case they ever do take our cartridge guns. My Daddy always told me "son don't put you eggs all in one basket"

You guys can fight about all that other stuff since I really don't care what year the flintlocks became unpopular.

Regards,

[Turk]

I reading around and speculating alot and it seems to me that a flintlock maybe  a good thing to have in the future. It may be the only firearm a simple person can keep in action after they take everything else away from us,

I’m a traditionalist when it comes to muzzle loaders and personally hunt whitetail with a custom traditional flinter Pennsylvania Long Rifle and plan to have a custom Jaeger built this year in rifled 58 cal.  Hunting with a flinter can be a real bear in wet/damp weather what you have to do is keep your powder dry or try and keep your powder by covering the pan and changing the priming powder often.  If you read old journals or books you’ll see the problem.  I like flinters over cap lock but cap locks and I believe cap locks are more reliable in damp conditions.  I guess in your scenario is the govt. takes all modern firearms?  Who knows? Traveling in a couple of West African countries approx. 12 years ago citizens in these dictator run countries could own single barrel registered shotguns.  I personally believe a total ban would not be accepted here in the US anyway not within the next 20 or so years.  I do see our elected officials (the ones I voted for won’t be in this group) moving toward more restrictions such as the assault rifles magazines capacity etc. Yes I know there’s talk about pump guns, lever actions being banned so I guess what you could own would be a break open firearm?  Consider a Savage 24 Over-Under Combination Guns you still see them gun shows.  Mine is a 222 Rem/ 20 ga.  Hand load the 222 down (MV) and shoot squirrels and rabbit or top it with a partition bullet for whitetail the 20ga can go shot or slugs but it go head to head with a military unit you lose.  http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/1


If your interested in flinter take a look at the TC Hawken http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/mzTraditional.php it’s not truly an authentic Hawken but it is a well made and excellent shooter and a whole lot cheaper than the $1500.00 plus I’m going to spend on the Jaeger as I said I’m a traditionalist in muzzle loaders and don’t even consider the in lines what’s the point if I want to sling heavy bullets I’ll use my 9.3x62mm.  I you do decide on a flinter join a black powder club, as it will shorten your learning curve.  I see from your bio you leave in Richmond, Kentucky.  The weekend there is a reenactment going on a Martin’s Station, Virginia http://www.martinsstation.com/index.shtml a couple hours from you.  Your state is deep in history in the flinter time period.  Every two years in the fall I make a trip to Ashland, Ky to go to Wolf Pen Woods Pioneer village, http://www.wolfpenwoods.com/home either of these places would be a great place to learn a little about flinters also check for local clubs.

We shooters are living in dangerous period relating to the 2nd Amendment but what really scares me is not the President but who’s leading and controlling the House and the Senate as they are the lawmakers.  In your scenario you had better have a box feed semi-auto rifle than a flinter.  Also if you buy a flinter have fun with it and let your mind slip back in time to your states history of the bloody 7's.  Have a good day.

Turk

[Badnews Bob]

Turk I believe you are the first to grasp my intent with this post.

I understand the limits of a flinter and I have several cap locks, I just feel that haveing one and being familar with it would put you ahead of the game,"Just in case".

My gun safe has a large varity of firearms in it from air guns to box fed assult rifles (My FN FAL talks real loud) Trying to be ready is all you can do.

I plan on looking into the meets you mentioned, and there is a man who makes some fine looking flinters at Fort Boonesbrough which is only 5 or 6 mile from my home.

I am glad to see you are aware of Kentuckys history, We are known for our hand in helping making this country great and I hope to continue that into the future.