Author Topic: urban/suburban survival? (Read 2950 times)

cbl51 · « **on:** January 16, 2009, 08:42:14 AM »

I read a whie back that 80% of the U.S. population now lives in urban type of environments.

Given the sheer numbers, and the impossabilities of getting out on the jammed roads, how many have prepared for suviving in place? Stockpile supplies that will stay for long periods, but easy to cook. Good air rifle for plinking off pidgeons and squirrels. I recently experimented with a Fienwerkebau pellet rifle, and got 5 pidgeons in a half hour. Did them up on the charcoal grill on the balcony and it was good as Cornish game hens. As long as I put bread crumbs out, they kept comming in.

There's lots of places to shelter in the city. The book about The Pianist, hiding out in the ruins of Warsaw in WW2 was an interesting read.

Not as romantic an idea of becoming a mountain man, but given the raw materials to harvest in the city, maybe practical.

mannyrock · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2009, 01:57:34 PM »

I have no training or experience in this regard, but I believe that in the urban/dense-surban scenario, the largest single problem will be how to acquire enough clean water to stay alive every day.

Second largest problem: How to dispose of daily sewerage. You will have to immediately dig and built an outhouse, and that aint easy.

Third largest problem: When your desperate neighbors see that you are surviving, they will be coming over to your place begging (or damanding) every day.

The birds for food idea is an excellent one. Even in the countryside, all large game will be killed off in the first 60 days. When I was a kid, in the dense suburbs, my little brother (age 10) took his Daisy BB gun, and killed 12 large birds off of our backyard birdfeeder, in just 2 hours. Mostly blue jays. (We he proudly showed them to my dad, my dad beat the tar out of him! But, could never explain why.)

Just some thoughts.

Regards,

Mannyrock

cbl51 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2009, 04:34:12 PM »

Quote from: mannyrock on January 16, 2009, 01:57:34 PM

I have no training or experience in this regard, but I believe that in the urban/dense-surban scenario, the largest single problem will be how to acquire enough clean water to stay alive every day.

Second largest problem: How to dispose of daily sewerage. You will have to immediately dig and built an outhouse, and that aint easy.

Third largest problem: When your desperate neighbors see that you are surviving, they will be coming over to your place begging (or damanding) every day.

The birds for food idea is an excellent one. Even in the countryside, all large game will be killed off in the first 60 days. When I was a kid, in the dense suburbs, my little brother (age 10) took his Daisy BB gun, and killed 12 large birds off of our backyard birdfeeder, in just 2 hours. Mostly blue jays. (We he proudly showed them to my dad, my dad beat the tar out of him! But, could never explain why.)

Just some thoughts.

Regards,

Mannyrock

Alot of your activities would have to be hidden. Having read the book about Wladyslaw Szpilman, and /anne Frank's family, one could take a page from some of what they did. I just wonder, if something happens, and the plan is for heading for the country side, how are the country people going to react to a couple miillion screaming meme refugees coming onot thier turf?

I figure, being a city boy born and bred, people like me may stand a better chance hiding out in the city, and waiting for the mob to thin out by either getting out of Dodge, or killing themselves off in anarchy.

I also have observed city people in general don't have the first idea how to set traps for small game, how to use things like airguns to harvest small game, gather water from rooftop cisterns, or have a hidden rooftop garden in plant pots. The chiller units on the roofs of large buildings hold very large amounts of water. Rooftop utility buildings make good hidden housing away from the street.

Thinking of the cities in Europe, that have for centuries been overrun, destroyed, rebuilt, and then go through it all over again. Yet the populace seems to live through it, finding a hidden basement room here, an attick there. Seems like theres always a space someplace you can hold up in.

After the chaos dies down, then maybe make your way out to someplace better. I think of the Japanese lady and her mother who held up in a high rise hotel, barracading the door, keeping qquiet, rationing thier food and supplies. The rode out Katrina in comfort and safty, eventually coming out when a new crew was downstairs.

Just a thought.

bilmac · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2009, 04:56:57 PM »

I think anybody would have a better chance of surviving in the environment he knows rather than wandering.

mannyrock · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:16:56 PM »

I agree. You are better holding up in a hidden room/space for at least 30 days, to let things thin out and quiet down.

Sadly, I think that if all of the city folk take to the road to wander into the countryside, it will become a monumental death march. World War II had many such instances, as the Germans invaded Russia, and then the Russians counterattacked the Germans.

Interestingly, I was born and raised in the suburbs, and the suburban mentality (mindset) would be to STAY AT HOME, and not to think that they would be better off by wandering off into the country side. Suburbanites like things to be neat, and orderly, and they view their homes and little patches of grass as their castles, and the road and the unknown as highly dangerous. If they gathered anywhere, it would be at the big local high schools, which would end up being like horrible refugee camps.

Urban folks seem to me to be more pragmatic, desperate, and willing to take risks. So, they may all start walking en masse, and taking and burning. Luckily, not one in a hundred of them has ever handled a firearm or tried to live outdoors for more than 2 days. The few of them that would be armed would only have handguns, not rifles or shotguns.

I think the huge initial clash woud be between the walking starving urbanites, and the stay at home (and well armed) suburbanites. Remember, 50% or more of all homes in the U.S. have a firearm in them, and the vast majority of homes are in the suburbs!

Mannyrock

mannyrock · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:23:42 PM »

Further thoughts: If you are alone, then it would not take much to hunker down in the city for 30 days. You would only need:

1. A room to hide.

2. A large amount of water.

3 A small amount of food.

4. A semi-auto pistol, with a good supply of ammo.

5. One good set of really warm clothes. A few changes of underwear.

6. A sleeping bag and pillow.

7. A flashlight, with spare bulb and batteries.

8 A small radio, with batteries.

9. A box of candles and a lighter.

10 A stack of paperback books.

Really, that's about all you would need.

Mannyrock

GregP42 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2009, 09:48:02 PM »

Guys,

One thing about water in cooling towers, it has chemicals in the water that will kill you dead. When I was in collage I worked there too and had to do upkeep on those water chillers.

Greg

bilmac · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2009, 01:07:10 AM »

There has to be huge amounts of runoff from all the flat roofs in cities. Figure out where the drains are and collect the runoff. There have to be tanks for hot water somewhere. These could supply water initially and a smart guy could figure out how to use them to store runoff water.

I agree with Manny that there is a great likelihood that there would be battles between displaced city dwellers and country folk. After all it is already well under way. When the cities prevail we get all Democrat government.

cbl51 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2009, 01:29:26 AM »

Quote from: GregP42 on January 16, 2009, 09:48:02 PM

Guys,

One thing about water in cooling towers, it has chemicals in the water that will kill you dead. When I was in collage I worked there too and had to do upkeep on those water chillers.

Greg

Can the water be boiled and the steam recycled? Set up a little still?

mannyrock · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:59:09 AM »

CBL,

The amount of wood you would have to burn to distil water, compared to the little dripping bowls of water you would derive from distilling, just wouldn't be worth it.

Best thing to do would be to set up clean sheets of plastic on a rooftop, to catch run-off, and then use a high quality water purifer (not a water filter) to purify the water you would drink . You can buy high quality water purifers in any large outdoors store, or any camping gear catalogue. As advertised, many of these purifers are capable of taking any water, deadly chemicals or not, and converting it into totally clean drinking water (except for salt water). But, why take the risk from something in a chilling tank?

If things go bad, first thing I would do would be to fill every bathtub, sink, trashcan, and ice chest in my apartment or house with water, before the plumping stops working. I'm guessing that this is what the Japanese women did in the hotel room during Katrina.

Mannyrock

SDS-GEN · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2009, 05:42:16 AM »

Look at the LA riots for an urban survival reference. In the Caribean the norm is to collect runoff in cisterns for drinking. When I was in cities in Honduras and Mexico many of the "rich" folks' homes had an 8' concrete wall around the entire yard. The walls were topped with thousands of very sharp spikes, or if you couldn't afford that, broken bottles set in the concrete. Your best chance of survival in any environment, urban, sub-urban, or rural is to band together and cooperate with your neighbors.

BBF · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2009, 06:40:00 AM »

If you can get into a reasonable size boat on a freshwater lake with lots of shallow and weedy spots or smaller island on it at a time it doesn't freeze or in a location it never does,you have a good chance of not getting overrun by a whole bunch of people. A sea going sailboat would be even better. Learn to like eating fish

cbl51 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2009, 06:50:55 AM »

Quote from: RPzB on January 17, 2009, 06:40:00 AM

If you can get into a reasonable size boat on a freshwater lake with lots of shallow and weedy spots or smaller island on it at a time it doesn't freeze or in a location it never does,you have a good chance of not getting overrun by a whole bunch of people. A sea going sailboat would be even better. Learn to like eating fish

That thought crossed my mind a few times!

Washington D.C. is at the junction of the Potomac river and the Anicostia rivers. There are numerous marina's around the place with many sailboats that the owners may never show up for in a earht shaking event. Downriver from D.C. is the Chesapeake bay, with inlets, coves, small islands, and mouths of many rivers both on the eastern and western shore. In some places, the shoreline is very sparsly populated, as is the shore of the Potomac above Washington.

I know in case of any kind of evecuation, getting out of D.C. on the few main roads and bridges will be a nightmare of blocked lanes and stalled traffic. Maybe taking to the water is one option that deserves some serious thought.

And I like fish just fine.

plumberroy · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2009, 07:35:00 AM »

I have all ways thought an air rifle would be a valuable addition to any survival kit. I have read of song bird being eaten more than once. A 1000 pellets take up very little room as long as you choose a gun that doesn't need co2 cartridges that is all you need. it would be quiet. and you could roast birds over a very small bed of coal on a skewer Sparrows, pigeons, doves, chipmonks, frogs and squirrels can be taken with guns shooting 500fps or faster
Roy
P.S. If you can hit a sparrow you can hit a gooses head

BBF · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2009, 12:44:49 PM »

Trying to get out of a big city via car or similar is not a good option. Open water is a much better proposition. The C. Bay is brackish so freezing may not be a big problem A reasonable size houseboat isn't bad either.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2009, 02:00:03 AM »

I have to agree that in MOST cases, you may well be better off hunkering down where you are. In that case, water purification is the key. If you keep a good pantry full of food, and some water on hand and/or a system for purifying it as you go you should come out OK. You can gather birds and rodents with a pellet gun, and don't overlook rat traps. You can bag squirrels all day with them if you set them for it (screwed to a tree or fence post, baited with a little penut butter) A composting camp toilet would probably be a good piece of the kit.

I've always thought that most peoples idea of a 'survival' situation unrealisticly involved them somehow being transported to 'the woods'. Pure Hollywood.

gypsyman · « **Reply #16 on:** May 09, 2009, 04:18:01 PM »

I said it in a different post. It might be more apropreiate here. If you understand your surroundings, and plan apropreiatly, where you live at know might be the best place. Going into strange terratory and trying to survive might be alot harder than just staying where your at, and planning ahead. Working out plans with neighbors and close friends/relatives,(distance wise) could work out better than trying to disappear in the wilderness and surviving. Having a body of water close by for fishing, or getting out in a boat while the local population goes biserk is a plus. Having a 2-3 week supply of water, or a well is good. Just saving up empty gallon milk jugs and medicenial supplies. You don't need to take a shower everyday. Hell, when we were kids, mom was lucky if she could get us to change our underware every 2 days. Working out a plan with neighbors and close relative's, I think, should be N0.1 on the list. Safety in numbers. 5 to 10 people working together can acomplish much more than 1 or 2. gypsyman

Chappers · « **Reply #17 on:** May 11, 2009, 04:08:09 AM »

I live in a town that has a population of about 74,000 (that might not be a lot for some of you) and with getting married soon i cant see the logic of these “bug out” plans working for me, so this topic has my attention.
Staying at home has already solved one of the big three of survival. (exposer to the elements is something most people don’t think about in the city)
Food i really like that idea of the Air rifle to gather small game and seeing that most would not try to take it. as the humble Air rifle would not be seen as a tool for protection and with so many people so close together i guess they would most likely see each other as the intimate threat a weapon might high on there get at all costs list. (and with a drill, washer, scrap metal, latch and the basics of spot welding can be turned in a .22 rifle... to be a kid again)
I was thinking about the last one of the big three, water. We have a big fish tank and a big fish tank filter i was thinking that this could help out with cleaning water. I know that it would not stop bacteria or chemicals but i could seeing it working to filter out silt or other impurities... and i guess boiling it after would make it passable for the water to drink in most situations.

mannyrock · « **Reply #18 on:** May 11, 2009, 10:51:33 AM »

Chappers,

Don't think fish tanks. Think Bathtubs (if you've got em.) They hold huge amounts of water. If you even have 10 minutes of advance warning before losing your water pressure, you could fill them both up.

Keep a spare gallon of bleach stored away. It will sterilize alot of water, when it comes time to drink it.

Regards,

Mannyrock

billy_56081 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 11, 2009, 11:15:57 AM »

A gallon or 2 of bleach will go a long ways for water purification. You a long time without food, but water is the critical need.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** May 11, 2009, 12:15:35 PM »

It would depend on what caused you to go into survival mode as to where you would make your stand . War has run many a human out of their comfort zone . Look at the sniper deal in Va, Ma and DC a few years back many stayed home . Weather could cause you to get out . A fire or chemical spill could cause flight etc.
We really don't know what we can or will have to do to survive until we are faced with it . That is why we should keep as many options open as we can .
Make friends out of town if you can have a place to go , even out of state . Form a group of like minded in town incase you have to stay .

jlwilliams · « **Reply #21 on:** May 12, 2009, 12:18:28 AM »

Make more than one plan. A plan to stay and a plan to go. I like that.

I often shudder when I see guys online (mostly other sights) talk about 'when the SHTF' they are going to put on their cammo clothes and head out 'to the woods'. Can't see why they would want to cut themselves off from the people who would be willing to help them. With most Americans living in cities and their metropolitan areas, where will the relief efforts likely be focused in any disaster? If you live in a city, where are your friends?

If you can get yourself some water purifying equipent and stock up on non perishables, you have a plan to stay. Have friends or family a couple of hundred miles away who could and would help you if your area was hit by a disaster, you have a plan to go.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #22 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:21:21 AM »

hide in plain sight ( the name of a book ) is the best way to keep up with whats going on .

SmokeEater2 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 17, 2009, 03:13:58 PM »

Quote from: plumberroy on January 17, 2009, 07:35:00 AM

I have all ways thought an air rifle would be a valuable addition to any survival kit. I have read of song bird being eaten more than once. A 1000 pellets take up very little room as long as you choose a gun that doesn't need co2 cartridges that is all you need. it would be quiet. and you could roast birds over a very small bed of coal on a skewer Sparrows, pigeons, doves, chipmonks, frogs and squirrels can be taken with guns shooting 500fps or faster
Roy
P.S. If you can hit a sparrow you can hit a gooses head

This is an excellent idea imho. I live in the country but I bought a Winchester 177 cal. pellet rifle that puts out 800-850 fps (and they make models much more powerful than that) for busting birds,rabbits and squirrels that raid the garden and fruit trees. It works great for this and is quiet enough that it doesn't spook the other critters around the area. This would be a good feature if I ever needed them for food since I don't want to run my meat supply off or advertise to anyone in the area I'm harvesting food if I can help it. Makes a nice cheap way to keep in some rifle practice too.

teamnelson · « **Reply #24 on:** June 17, 2009, 04:00:36 PM »

Read through this thread with interest as if it came to it, I'm stuck right now in an urban setting. I've thought through a few of the issues, and here's what I got:

Water - collect from any source (rain barrel) and filter with a DIY biosand in a 5 gal bucket. No wood required to boil.

Sewerage - if the gray/black lines stop working, then a combination composter/solar drier set up is a little more complicated but if you have a window, you can make it work. For urine, you COULD run it through the biosand filter, but you'd be skimming the sand more frequently. Nearly every Marine/Sailor or Soldier who has been to OIF or OEF knows how to make a piss tube now; I've got all I need to put one in my postage stamp of a back yard. Or if you're in a high rise, get creative with the rain runoff system. Prev-Med techs harp on keeping your living space clean for reasons.

I do not plan on relief coming. I ran a relief NGO overseas, and been involved in national relief efforts here in the US at the planning and management level. If its not an eotwawki scenario, then it will be heavly affected by politics and mismanagement. If it is, then there won't be any coming. Best to plan on not having it; and be happy if you get it!

Yankee1 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 18, 2009, 06:27:54 PM »

Hi
When I was a youngster about 70 years ago I used to visit my aunt in Maine.
The only water she had in her house was provided by two rain barrels mounted on platforms beside the house. We did not want for water and it did not require any treatment. The barrels did have screens on them. If people required more water they put up another barrel. This was in Brunswick Maine.
Yankee1

Chilachuck · « **Reply #26 on:** June 19, 2009, 04:35:10 AM »

Why on earth would anyone need to purify water gathered off a clean sheet of plastic?

I'll second the pellet gun, but rat traps also work for birds, as would monofilament snares.

Hey, you know, this might finally take care of the urban geese everyone keeps griping about.

teamnelson · « **Reply #27 on:** June 19, 2009, 07:56:07 AM »

Chilachuck, folks have tested water in rainbarrels and it's not always clean because of the roof, our lines. Also if there's soot or smoke in the air the rain itself will come down tainted. In the country maybe not an issue; in an urban environment I filter it all.

Chilachuck · « **Reply #28 on:** June 20, 2009, 04:46:16 AM »

He did specify a clean sheet of plastic instead of a bare roof. Some country folk divert the first few minutes of rain from a bare roof to divert the dirty water, that should do for smog as well.

Your choice.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #29 on:** June 21, 2009, 01:53:00 AM »

If you set up a rain collection barrel set up, filtered if apropriate, you will be glad you did. If things go badly you have the water to live on. If things are good you have free water for your back yard or patio garden. Good idea either way.

A good way to look at any 'survivalist' preparation is to as yourself this question. "Will this put me in a better position regardless of if the poop hit the fan?". I have seen guys spend real money on SHTF preparedness that doesn't do them any good unless the Day of the Brown Fan comes. What's the point of that?

Now, putting in a garden is a perfect axample of GOOD planning. If the SHTF, you better have some sort of long term food production plan going. If the S does not hit the fan, you have fresh produce for less money than the grocery store. Good plan. Now, gardens require water. Cities charge money for piping the water to your home. Getting some free water for your free vegetables just makes sense.

I live in a rural area and pump my own water from my own well, and I have 10 big barrels full of rain water for my garden. I found plastic 55gal drums on craigslist for a good price so I grabbed them. I can't say enough good about it. Go get some for yourself, you will be glad you took the time to find and use them.