Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos

[Cat Whisperer]

Thanks Richard, but what we need to know is how consistent they are from ball to ball in that size.  Has anyone actually measured 10 or 20 of them to see how much variation there is in either circumference or diameter?

T&M

I have maybe 1/2 a dozen or so here AND a set of calibers.  Will measure soon.

[Cat Whisperer]

....
2. M&T are going to need a crew of strong backs and weak minds.
....

Wait a minute!  My mother taught me there is NO back strong enough to support a weak mind!   

[Double D]

 If you go to the sticky's at the top of the page anf Tim's reference post and look through there you will find this  link: http://www.topendsports.com/sport/tenpin/dimensions.htm

BALL
Bowling Ball Material Regulations
A bowling ball shall be constructed without voids in its interior, be of a non-metallic composition material and conform to the specifications for weight, size and balance. The use of minute reflective particles or flakes for decorative purposes shall be permitted in bowling ball material provided such flakes or particles are made part of the ball at the time of manufacture, are evenly distributed in a uniform pattern under a transparent shell at least 1/4" beneath the surface of the ball so as to have no effect on the balance, and the total amount of such material does not exceed 1/2 ounce per ball. Also, the surface hardness shall not be less than 72 Durometers "D."

So what are they made of?
In the 1960s, hard rubber balls were used. Polyester balls took over as the ball of choice in the '70s. You will find that most of the 'house balls' in your local bowling alley are made of the polyester. In the '80s the urethane ball was developed, which then were further developed to reactive and proactive urethane.


Bowling Ball Weight, Size, Markings & Holes
The circumference of a ball shall not be more than 27.002 inches nor less than 26.704 inches, nor shall it weigh more than 16 lbs (there is no minimum weight).
The diameter of the ball must be constant.
The surface of the ball must be free of all depressions or grooves of specific pattern, except for holes or indentations used for gripping the ball, identification letters and numbers, and incidental chipping or marring caused by wear.
Other Requirements
Movable devices are not permitted in a ball except that a device for changing the finger span or size of the finger and thumb holes may be inserted provided it is locked into position during delivery and cannot be removed from the ball without being destroyed.
The introduction of metal or any other substance no comparable to the original material used in the manufacture of the ball is prohibited.
Plugs may be inserted for the purpose of re-drilling; ball. Designs may be embedded in a ball as guides or for observation or identification purposes provided the designs are flush with the outer surface of the ball.
There shall be no interior voids and the plugs or designs must be of similar material to although not exactly the same as the original material out of which the ball was made; and shall otherwise comply with all bowling ball specifications.
No foreign material may be placed on the outer surface of the ball.
The surface hardness of a bowling ball shall not be less than 72 Durometer 'D'.
Number of holes allowed
see information on the ball drilling page

I have two rounds of ammunition on site for such a gun

[/quote]

[thelionspaw]

They have to be almost exact because money rolls with them. Bowling For Dollars, League stuff. In my family, it's a Polish blood sport. 

[Terry C.]

The circumference of a ball shall not be more than 27.002 inches nor less than 26.704 inches

These circumferences work out to 8.500" - 8.595" diameter.

Regulations only allow .095" variation, that's pretty consistent.

Bore diameter based on maximum ball diameter plus standard windage = 8.815".

[seacoastartillery]

     George,   The length variation is 3' + 6"  (if the piece is longer than that, we will pay the cutting charge).
                                                    - 2"
     Around here the cost for scrap steel is $ .60 per pound which is exactly TEN TIMES the scrap price they pay which varies, but recently was $120.00 per Ton.  And you guys thought furniture had a big markup. 

     TerryC,   I agree with all your math on ball dims, but I guess my reference to our "Rifled Bowling Ball Mortar was hidden somewhat, so we won't be needing the 1/40 of ball dia. windage added and that is why the diametral consistency of the balls is so important.

So, as much as we wanted to send a huge cloud of Kapok and a big projectile downrange, I guess we will be in the idea phase once again.

      Maybe we will get to design our rifled bowling ball mortar after all.  Does anybody have any idea how consistent bowling balls are as far as diameter goes? 


I suggested Max Caliber's "Beast Mortar" design since we know a sculptor and he had just one word for it.  "Yikes!"  I like it.

     Thanks Tim, but unless you have a set of those "jaw extenders" and 12" calipers you're not going to be able to reach two opposite points on the ball's equator.  If You can get some results, we would be interested in them!  Thank you.

     Double D,  kidding aside, Mike and I both wish you the very best on your knee replacement.  You will have plenty to do without helping us drag mortar bed timbers and big chunks of concrete around.  Thanks a lot for all that excellent bowling ball info.

     Victor3, KABAR2, and thelionspaw, thanks for all the suggestions on easy to carry water jugs and related stuff.  We kind of want to stick with the old symmetrical type.  We think that they will tumble end over end more reliably if the projectile is basically cylindrical.

We will explain how you can build a Rifled BB Mortar without sabots of any kind and keep it an easy-to-load muzzle loader.  You might want to think about this and decide how YOU would build it. 

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

[Frank46]

Mike & Tracey, forgive the question. But since you folks have way more experience than I, this bowling ball mortar will have to be heavy. At the risk of sounding really stupid, just how do you plan on moving that sucker???. Unless you have either a fork lift or john deere tractor with forks. I don't know about you but at 62 my days of humping heavy weights are over. I've seen the pics of the Paulson Bros. mortars and they are really huge. Always wondered how Cannonman moved that spanish mortar around. When I was young it was a strong back and weak mind (shoveled a lot of coal) now its the other way 'round. Frank

[GGaskill]

...just how do you plan on moving that sucker?

Speaking for myself (same age), engine hoists or assistants.

[Double D]

I think enthusiasm helps.  I can imagine even with my new bionic knee I wouldn't hesitate to help...and I happen to have a engine hoist

[seacoastartillery]

     We have not given up on the 1/2 scale Paixhans mortar yet, so all this BB Mortar discussion may be premature.  When George gets a chance he will look for a low carbon steel tube to use as the functional bore for the projectile which will be pinned and welded to the heavy chamber piece.   You guys are correct, however, either type of mortar will be quite heavy, and at age 62 myself as of 3 weeks ago, I don't do any unloading of boxcars anymore (my first real paying job).  We will have the necessary hoists, come-alongs, block and tackle, etc., whatever it takes to save our backs.  If my English Mastiffs, Prometheus and Rose, were still with us, we could harness them and use them just like the Belgians and others did in WWI to haul the munitions.  A four-wheeler borrowed from a neighbor should make an adequate, but less cool substitute.

     I have no intention of getting a hernia, Frank, nor putting anyone in that position either.  The offers of help will not be forgotten; thank you all. 

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

[Terry C.]

You're right, I finally got my brain rollin' and then the brakes failed.

[Cat Whisperer]

I misspoke - micrometers, not calipers.  1" - 2" - up to 12" or so...  Tonight I'll measure (and measure the ambiant temp.).

[GGaskill]

Today's rainy trip to the metals dealer found one piece 11" ID x .9" wall x 34" length with a chamfer on the end (the .9" is an estimate; it was less than an inch but not much; I was measuring with a steel tape.)  Their price for surplus steel tubing is $.65 a pound.  That piece would weigh approximately 400 lbs.  I didn't see anything with a thinner wall in large diameters.

If you want it, we need to determine how to get it to you.

[seacoastartillery]

       Terry,   That very same thing happens to us far more often than we care to admit and what we tell our customers is correct, "Yes sir, when I said we occasionally made mistakes, that was entirely true.  However, when you receive your cannon you absolutely will not be able to tell me where they were, and remember, there will be no delivery before we, ourselves, would be proud to own it."

     Tim,   A mic should do it; you should not worry about keeping track of the ambient temperature though.  The thermal expansion of bowling ball polymers is even less than steel.  My engineering site states 6 millionths per deg. F. per linear inch for steel and only 1.4 millionths per deg. F per inch for polyester plastic.  What's a few millionths between friends, Tim?  Thanks again for your assistance.

     George,  we really appreciate your help in this matter, but we just would not know what to do with something this heavy.  It would be possible, I guess, but every operation would be a huge project.  I believe it's becoming very clear why small shops don't make things this large and heavy. The total weight of the Paixhans would be over 1,000 lbs. if we used this tube.  I think that we will have to concentrate on a historical design for a Bowling Ball mortar.  We could research the 24" Confederate mortar, designed by John M. Brooke, that was never built, but could have terrorized the Union Navy if it had been made in quantity.  One third scale, of course, would be big enough.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

[Victor3]

 Dang. I was hoping to see your monster  

 Can't you just cut a water heater in half and wrap it up real good with a lot of fiberglass packing tape?  

 Howsabout something to shoot this, using 1/3 of the tube GGaskill found?

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=20327&product_id=9742

 You could make a steel chamber insert in a 7075-T6 aluminum breech plug bolted to the bbl tube to save weight.

 Maybe  

[dominick]

This is a very interesting project.  Could you possibly use a substitute filler material to reduce the weight of the water jug projectiles?  I was thinking something like a plastic bag inserted into the mouth of the jug and filled with pingpong balls as a core, surrounded by a resin and plastic beads slurry.  This may help reduce the weight of the entire project while keeping keeping the shock and awe of the size of the monster projectile flying in the air. Good luck with it.

[Rickk]

I've yet to ever use it, but "perlite" mixed with concrete makes "lightweight concrete" that can run close to 20% of the weight of standard concrete mix.

http://www.perlite.org/product_guides/0_Perlite%20concrete.pdf

Mike and Tracey, I'm landing ad Denver International Monday afternoon and driving to Longmont... no target practicing with something like this while my plane is landing.

Sad that I it will be a very short business trip and I will be with others or I would try to swing by.

I may make the trip again in the near future... maybe I can finagle a few extra hours into the schedule.

Rick

[seacoastartillery]

     If it is feasible, we will do almost all of these things as we have to keep it simple, simple, simple and lighter.  
        
     Thank you Dominick for making us look at the projectile weight once again.  We want to stay with the water jug if at all possible, so we will shorten it by 2.5 inches and place one bourlette band over the other and apply epoxy before filling with concrete.  This plus accurate re-calculation of total length brings the weight down to 132 pounds less the integral sabot of birch plywood, an 11.50" dia./ .187" thk. steel base protector plate.  Total projectile weight is now 140 lbs.
     Other things we will do include:
          
          1.   Shorten the OAL to 24".  This will save us lots of weight and reduce pressure as well.  We will still be within the limits of a 2/5 scale and proportionality will be preserved by similar reductions in O.D. of the cosmetic outer wall as well.  Thanks Victor3.  

          2.   We will design this mortar to be modular, but historical in chamber shape, shape of tube and redundant as far as strength goes.  We will build it in our shop, but transport in five major pieces which can be re-assembled on site.  

          3.   The 12" ID, 1/2 inch thk. tube we just located here will be about 75 lbs. per foot or 150 lbs. of 1018 or 1020 or 1026 steel.

          4.   The chamber will be machined from a 9" dia. X 9" long round of 1026 steel.

          5.   The top of chamber support and reinforcing piece will be 1" thk. boiler plate 11.980" dia.O.D. with a 9.002" I.D. and welded to the top of the chamber piece.

          6.   The 8 separate annular ring reinforce pieces (11.980" O.D. X 9.002" I.D.)will be assembled at the range around the chamber with the cannon upside down, and this column and the flat bottom of the cylindrical chamber piece will sit on one solid 1" thk. x 11.990"dia. bottom plate which will be bolted to the outer tube with 8, 1/2"x20, grade 8 bolts.  

          7.  The construction of the outer, cosmetic skin of the mortar, material and method yet to be determined, will be 18" dia.X 24" length, for a ratio of 3:4, that of the original.  we hope that a marker board sketch will be done by Sunday afternoon and will hopefully make all this clear.


     The projectiles will have to have a delrin forward bourlette ring to center that 10.667" dia. plug of concrete in the 12" bore.  Because of the shortened, one caliber long bore, we will tighten up the windage to .375" total from the .500" total windage we had with the 2 caliber long bore.  This will still be 30% more than the 1/40th of projectile size as is normal.  I predict 498 lbs total mortar weight when finished plus another 200 lbs. for the 60 deg. fixed elevation bed.  Five projectiles will be another 700 lbs. and the loading hoist with block and tackle will be another 150 lbs.  Guess we will have to break out the flat bed trailer to haul this 1,548 lbs. of equipment. Almost forgot the borrowed 4 wheeler, another 500 lbs. .....total, 2,048 lbs.  Guess we won't be taking the Smart fortwo.  Oh well, we'll travel light NEXT year.

     A special thank you to George Gaskill for searching in steel yards on our behalf.  We still owe you that deluxe dinner!

     Rick, if you ever have a little time, please call we will pick you up for a quick reminisce and a 50 cent tour of the Broomfield Cannon Manufactory.  Love to see you again!  We must be nice guys; your Llamas never spit on us!!

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

[GGaskill]

And you were concerned about an extra 200 lbs???   

[Victor3]

 Just an ideer if you wanted to make some light 'practice' rounds to try before the real deal...

 Fill the bottle 3/4 full of redwood bark chunks and pour in plaster of paris or some kind of thin grout mix.

 For a really light one, just fill it with hydrogen (Wait... Helium might be better for this application).

 All joking aside, I'm anxious to see what you come up with.

[seacoastartillery]

     George,  You are right; it's just like that Shakespearean Play, "Much Ado About Nothing".  An extra 200 lbs?  Who cares?  It was the cost which stopped us.  $300 VS $75 (Smart fortwo delivery).

     Victor3,   That much Plaster of Paris might melt my plastic jug!  To further control weight and attendant pressure, I decided to take another two inches off the over-all-length.  We are now down to 120 lbs. plus projectile bottom protector plates (delrin and steel), 10 lbs for a total projo wt. of 130 lbs., still a respectable number. 

     The marker board drawing and how the new 4 gal. concrete water jug fits into the bore photos are below.  Let me know if I have made any gross errors.  Better to correct them now, rather than AFTER the spectacular You-Tube clip gathers 247,000 views!

Regards,

Mike and Tracy


Paixhans Mortar drawing full size.




How the new jug fits in the mortar.  We will probably trim the filler neck off for a more Military look.

[GGaskill]

We will probably trim the filler neck off for a more Military look.

You could use the neck as an attachment point for fins so it travels downrange bottom forward (would then have to add a point for better aerodynamics; maybe give the protector plates some dish.)

[seacoastartillery]

     You know, I actually though about that, but I just could not think of something acceptable historically and functionally.  I did come up with one colorful idea that might cause a chuckle or two, but most likely would not be terribly effective.  I could gather up a bunch of shed Peacock feathers the next time I take my grandson to the Denver Zoo.  I would epoxy the quills into the water jug neck and bind all those colorful feathers together with a brass ring about a foot above the filler neck top.  Upon firing the mortar, "Inertia at Rest" would keep the heavy, brass, ring motionless for a moment as the projectile and all those tail feathers go forward.  As the brass ring clacks against the filler neck top, the plummage will be released to cause air resistance and smiles alike.  We predict some 600 feet of travel will be required for the projectile to swap ends, so a high 60 deg. launch angle will be required for a 100 yard impact.   

A new Mortar drawing is below with lettering you can actually read.  Feature that!

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

A bit clearer than the previous one.  Features added like welds.

[Double D]

Do we need to start collecting water jugs? I could drive by the Albertson store about 2 am and pick up a few?

[dominick]

Looks good!  It's massive. So when it is assembled, it will have the appearance of a 3 inch thick barrel.    Are you welding the plug face to the topside of the inner ring?

[seacoastartillery]

     Double D,   That doesn't sound quite right, so I'm sure you are kidding.  Anyway, we already we have five and with all the work we have to do to each, that's going to be enough!  Oh, almost forgot, do you have water on the premises or a sprayer tank of some sort to wet down the grass ahead of the Beast before we fire it?

     Dominick,   Thanks, that correction has been made.  See new photo below.  Good catch!  Now you know why we keep you around here.  That, and also the fact that you make a big bunch of cool cannons!!  Yes, when the screwed-on sheet metal, cosmetic, outer enclosure is in place, the appearance of three inch thick tube will be apparent.  It will be sturdy enough to remain in place during fire missions. 

Did we miss anything else?  Further study is required on the total thickness and proportion of the appearance tube.  The
tube looks too skinny.  It should be 8" thick don't you think, then the length would have to go out a bit too.  We'll get it!

Mike and Tracy


Dominic suggested additional circular weld bead located below.

[Double D]

Ah, not a sprayer tank, but do you want me to have the VFD on scene?  I am planning on cutting the grass down range.  But every one coming should bring a shovel for fighting fire. 

I take it you are going fill the plastic water bottles with a cement mixture.  How many days do they need to cure?  To save room/weight, if you were going to be in the area a few days ahead of time to you could build them on my pad in front of my shop.  I would just have to make sure the lumber yard had the proper concrete/mortar mixes you need. 

[Victor3]

 What about something like this?



 Chamber would hold pressure upon firing, and would be mostly isolated above the top plate after firing. Your chamber wall thickness is already enough, so I think the 8 reinforcing rings could be deleted.

 This design would allow you to assemble the chamber/base separately, reducing the weight of the bbl for transport and handling.

[seacoastartillery]

     Double D,    In my experience filling all those 4" old style oil cans full of concrete and shooting them at 100, 200 and 300 yards in the 70s and 80s,  a minimum cure time of one week was needed to avoid having a bunch of loose gravel and some grey stuff going downrange instead of a cohesive 5.5 lb. projectile.  We appreciate the offer, but we will build them a month in advance of the shoot and haul them up to Cut Bank.  Trimming the grass and bringing shovels should be adequate for fire control. 

     Victor3,   Thanks for that viable alternative design.  We may borrow it's most outstanding feature and incorporate it into our design.  Your design has the great advantage of achieving weight balance among it's sub-assemblies, thereby facilitating easier mobility and final assembly for the user.

     We can appreciate the fact that the chamber piece and bottom plate weldment would weigh approx. 190 lbs.  And the functional tube and neck ring weldment would be almost the same at 182 lbs.  The cosmetic sheet metal surround, about 50 lbs., is bolted on separately. 

     Although we trust the shear strength of our bolt application over your thread strength application, we have really studied your design quite a bit and we like it so much that we will adopt your "Easier to achieve", bolt circle in the bottom plate and bore cylinder end due to one simple addition/change in your design.  We will simply screw the Chamber piece/bottom plate weldment into the 1" thick "Body Ring".  That's right, we will thread the end of the chamber piece with 9" x 3 threads and the Chamber Body ring as well.  By using this method of "on-site-attachment", we will eliminate the one teeny-weeny area of concern in your design, that of the "possible" pressurized, high temp gas leak in the “Close Fit Here” area.  No need for a "pressure relief hole" either.  New sketch when we get time.

Thank you Victor3!!   Thanks, Double D, for getting us moving on something new and fun!!

Mike and Tracy

[Victor3]

 Okay guys, I'll sign off on your modification to my modification 

 One concern - I assume you might...

 1) Machine the chamber and mating top "body ring" with the giant threads.

 2) Weld the chamber to the base plate.

 3) Screw together chamber/base plate weldment and threaded body ring via giant threads.

 4) Bolt assembly into the tube to align it for welding the body ring to the tube.

 5) Tack-weld body ring to tube.

 6) Unscrew chamber/base plate from body ring.

 7) Weld body ring to tube all around on both sides.

 Be carefull on the welding. The body ring is going to want to pull one way or another, the tube may tend to distort, and the giant threads might not hold their form.

 It would be a disaster if the body ring wasn't welded straight and you could no longer screw the chamber/base plate in and get the bolt circle to mate up at the end of the tube (Assuming you could still thread them together at all).

 Just a suggestion if you have any concern about the above - Go with my design but put a bolt circle in the body ring/top of chamber and put a soft lead gasket between them to seal the bore from the area around the chamber below. This will allow you to add more clearance where I've noted "close fit here."

 Also, the base plate doesn't really need to be welded to the chamber; you could just assemble the two pieces together through the bottom via another bolt circle.

 The above scenario will allow you to drill all through holes in body ring and base plate slightly oversize, giving you some wiggle-room to make sure all will assemble without the use of rat tail files and a lot of headaches. Shims could also be used between the chamber and base plate to make up for any length variations in the finished assembly.

 Edit - Whatever design you go with, you're going to need some clearance in the hole to be able to assemble the vent tube through the bbl wall/sheet metal facade. This could also act as your pressure relief if need be.