Author Topic: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos  (Read 8287 times)

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Offline seacoastartillery

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     This will be Mike and Tracy's first mortar build, so we are asking for a little help from those of you who have built mortars before.  This mortar will not be duplicated by us.  One is going to be enough, we believe.  The object of this build is to launch a heavy, solid concrete projectile weighing approx. 180 lbs. from a mortar set at 60 deg. elevation to a distance of at least 100 yards accurately and SAFELY, and  perhaps have a 300 yard maximum range. We think that 1 lb. of 1 Fg BP should get us to 100 yards and maybe 2 lbs. should be adequate for 300, so our chamber size should hold 2 lbs. until range experiments prove otherwise. An initial design sketch is almost done and we will post it in a day or two and you experienced builders can rip it to shreds.  :o :o  We expect at least two or three rounds of revisions before an effective and SAFE design can be decided upon.  The photo below shows a 5 Gallon water jug flanked by a 4" cannonball and a 15" Beach Ball for scale.

     If you are interested, a brief bio on Col. Paixhans and the testing and battle use of the Monster Mortar is also included below.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike






     Henri-Joseph Paixhans, 1783-1854 was a French artillery officer and ordnance inventor.  He graduated from the distinguished technical university,  Ecole Polytechnique and fought in the Napoleonic Wars. 
 
     In 1823, he invented the first shell guns, which came to be called Paixhans guns (or "canon obusiers" in the French Navy). Paixhans guns became the first naval guns to combine explosive shells and a flat trajectory, thereby triggering the demise of wooden ships, and the iron hull revolution in boat building. Paixhans also invented a "Mortier monstre" ("Monster Mortar"), using 500 kg bombs, which was used to terrible effect in the Siege of Antwerp in 1832.

     "Paixhans had so far satisfied naval men of the power of shell guns as to obtain their admission on shipboard; but by unduly developing the explosive element, he had sacrificed accuracy and range.... The difference between the system of Paixhans and my own was simply that Paixhans guns were strictly shell guns, and were not designed for shot, nor for great penetration or accuracy at long ranges. They were, therefore, auxiliary to, or associates of, the shot-guns. This made a mixed armament, was objectionable as such, and never was adopted to any extent in France... My idea was, to have a gun that should generally throw shells far and accurately, with the capacity to fire solid shot when needed. Also to compose the whole battery entirely of such guns."
—Admiral John A. Dahlgren.[1]

     The United States Navy adopted the Paixhans Shell Gun design, and equipped several ships with 8-inch guns of 63 and 55 cwt. in 1845, and later a 10-inch shell gun of 86 cwt. Paixhans guns were used on the Constitution know as "Old Ironsides," a wooden-hulled, three-masted frigate of the United States Navy.... (4 Paixhans guns) in 1842, under the command of Foxhall A. Parker, Sr.,  and were also present onboard the Mississippi (1841),  (10 Paixhans guns), and the USS Susquehanna (1847), a sidewheel steamer which  was the first ship of the United States Navy to be named for a river and carried (6 Paixhans guns) during Commodore Perry's mission to open Japan in 1853.

Legacy
Ironclad warships
Wooden boats became so vulnerable that the only possible response could come with the introduction of the iron-hulled Warship.

The first of them was the French La Gloire, soon followed by the HMS Warrior (1860).

HMS Warrior was the world's first ocean-going iron-hulled armored battleship.
.

     The Celebrated Mortar.— It having been announced that an experiment would be made on the 24-inch (English) mortar on the heath of Braeschaet, a number of generals and officers of all arms proceeded to that village. The previous experiments made at Liege had not succeeded, either from some defect in the shell, or in the mode of firing. It had been tried with the usual wooden sabot, as well as with a wad of twisted straw ; but, with one or two exceptions, the projectile burst at the moment of quitting the piece. This was attributed to a want of thickness in the shell, particularly of the culot or part coming in contact with the charge, which, from the great diameter of the cavity, had not sufficient thickness to resist the shock of the powder and concussion of the air. Fresh shells were subsequently directed to be cast.

     The first eight or ten experiments were made with the dead shell filled with its proper weight in sand, and fired with various charges, from six to twelve pounds, gradually increasing. No accident occurred. The artillery officers being satisfied with these trials, the shell was loaded to a third, and so on to its full charge, upwards of a barrel and a quarter. One shell alone burst out of six, at the mouth of the piece; the remainder fell near the target, and exploded with a fierce detonation, tearing up many cubic feet of earth, and scattering splinters to the distance of 450 yards. The shells were hoisted to a level with the mouth of the cylinder by means of a chevalet supporting a swivel bar, on the one end of which were suspended two chains with hooks to catch the rings of the shell, and on the other a weight nearly equalling that of the projectile ; it was easily raised by this means, and then lowered without any jar into the chamber. A straw-twisted wad was employed as a sabot. The operation of loading required an average of 37 minutes to 50. The vent was fitted with a spring detonator, and the man who fired stood behind a traverse and pulled the spring with a long cord.

     The experiment having succeeded, it was resolved to bring the mortar into Antwerp, and preparations were made to place it in battery on the covered way of the bastion of the city, between the re-entering place of arms of Montebello and the Malines gate. Eight horses were required to draw the carriage on which it was placed, and eight others to draw the carriage containing the bed. The weight of the empty shells being nearly 1,000 lbs. it is easy to calculate the number of these projectiles that could be moved in any ordinary ammunition wagon. The weight of the bed, which is of timber, is not given in the scale, but it may be taken as at somewhat more than the mortar itself, making altogether about 30,000lbs.; add to this 110 shells for 100 rounds at 1,000 lbs. each, and 110 barrels of 90 lbs. each, and it gives the enormous dead weight of 70 tons, exclusive of gins, triangle, chevalet, carriage, and sundries. The name of Monster-mortar seems to have been well selected, for it is scarcely possible to conceive a more ugly or unwieldy implement. With the exception of the mortar at Moscow, which has thirty-six inches in diameter at the mouth of the cylinder, and was, if ever used, employed for projecting masses of granite, the monster- mortar exceeds any other weapon of the kind hitherto known. The original conception is due to Colonel Paixhans ; it was executed under the direction of Baron Evain, and cast at the Belgian royal foundery at Liege.

     Firing.—At midnight, the twenty-four-inch mortar was loaded with twelve and a half pounds of powder, and the first discharge took place. The huge projectile, of which the internal charge was fifty-four pounds of powder and combustibles, was watched with anxiety as it made its parabola, and a look-out person stationed on the tower of St. Andre reported that it had fallen and exploded near the great powder magazine at the gorge of bastion Fernando. The success of the experiment was thus demonstrated. At the second shot, which took place nearly an hour later, the shell burst on issuing from the mouth of the mortar, not by explosion from the fuze, hut from the weakness of the projectile itself. Great care was therefore ordered to be taken in selecting others, of which the culots were thicker.

The dimensions are as follows:

Calibre massive, 23.62 in.
Thickness, exclusive of culot .. 2 in ,,
Weight of empty shell 9l6 lbs. ,,
Powder contained in shell .... 99 lbs. „
Weight of Shell, full charge ..1015 lbs. „
Weight of mortar (metal) 14,700 lbs. „
Weight of bed (wood) 16,000 lbs. „
Powder in Chamber (full) 30 lbs. ..

     The French weight has been preserved purposely for the sake of greater accuracy.


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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I think I know the answer to my question but will ask it anyway.  How did you arrive at 1 pound for a powder charge.

By the way What was the range the mortar fire at Antwerp

Offline seacoastartillery

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     Well, I better answer the second one first and the answer of that will lead to the one for the first.  According to all accounts I have read the range of the Citadel at Antwerp was 1,000 yards from the Monster Mortar.  I only found one declaration of the charge used and it was 12.5 lbs.  So, in my head I got 1 lb., but after calc. I get .8 lb., so we would start at .5 lb. and work up to whatever we actually need. To get the weight of the reduced scale charge, first get the cube of the scale.  Example:  The cube of a 1/6 scale is 6x6x6= 216.  Or, in our case we have a 2/5 scale and to get get the cube of the scale you need a whole number, so 5/2=2.5 and 2.5 cubed is 2.5x2.5x2.5=15.625  Then you divide the original weight of the powder by the scale cubed number.  So, 12.5/15.625=.80 lb.

     Anyway, we always start low and work up to an accurate load and we resist going for maximum range, especially with something this big.  For those of you who understand how a 40mm grenade launcher cartridge works, you also understand why we can have 1/2" wall thickness on this mortar and still be safe when it fires.  Small chamber and BIG BORE makes it possible.  Sometimes referred to as the HI/LO Pressure principle.  Thanks DD, great questions.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Victor3

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 You know, when guys get together to launch high-flying model rockets they have to get a clearance from the FAA.

 I think you might need an OK from the USGS to shoot this thing - So they don't get any false readings on their seismographs.

 ;D

 Edit - Just curious M&T... Is this mortar going to look like the original? What prompted you guys to make something like this?
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Safe - eh?

You could always proof test with a 1/2 pound of bullseye.   :o
You might have to dig it out of the ground, but if it survived it would be OK.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline cannonmn

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Interesting project.  I guess if I were doing it, I'd use a 45 degree elevation so I'd have the benefit of many old range tables for various weights of shell and powder.  At 180 lbs. you are nearly at the 213 lb. weight of a 13-inch mortar shell fired from the US M1861 13-in. seacoast mortar.

We fired a 9.5-inch mortar using undersize shells of proper weight, with U-haul moving blanket sabot/wads.  I think an approx. 88 lb. "shell" went nearly 150 yards with 12 oz. black powder (1F?).  Anyway, we showed five rounds and the various powder charges in our video "shooting the Spanish mortar."  We always do 45 degrees so we can reference old range tables.

[yt=425,350]nVj-3Rzsu8M[/yt]

Offline dominick

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           For those of you who understand how a 40mm grenade launcher cartridge works, you also understand why we can have 1/2" wall thickness on this mortar and still be safe when it fires.  Small chamber and BIG BORE makes it possible.  Sometimes referred to as the HI/LO Pressure principle.  Thanks DD, great questions.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

Rapid pressure curve drop.

Offline cannonmn

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One early gun to use the high/low principle was the Simms-Dudley "dynamite gun."  There were actually two separate barrels, the lower one was strictly the expansion chamber for the propellant gases from a black-powder blank cartridge.  A small orifice allowed the gas to bleed into the "real" 2.5-inch smoothbore barrel on top, which was something like 15 feet long, a lot for a rather small-caliber field gun.

Offline Double D

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I'm learning something here.  The formula for scaling charges, I have never heard that one before...or have I?  Now that I think about it you covered this before in an earlier discussion on one of your other guns. I think it is a math thing but I the not quite grasping the full effect of this. Is this a scaled volume. 

Will PMM have a powder chamber? If so will the powder chamber measurements scaled 1/6 have the same volume as you scaled charges or will you have to adjust the chamber to fit the charge?

 

Offline seacoastartillery

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     Victor3,   I suppose we could give the USGS a courtesy call.  25 years ago we used to shoot the 1/2 scale 8" 1797 mortar in northern Colorado within 2 or 3 miles of a Titan II missle silo cluster and we always wondered if we would ever see an Air Force extra cab pickup with the two M-16s in the "easy rider rifle rack" come whizzing down the dirt road to our location.  Never happened, although we saw them on those roads all the time.

     Mike and I have always been fascinated by the big mortars and the ultimate to us has always been Mallet's Mortar of 1857, but a 1/3 scale recreation of that would be extra heavy and very complicated.  Dominick and The Paulson brothers have already done the 13" 1861 Seacoast Mortar thoroughly, so, "What's left to do?"  The big Russian, "Great Mortar of Moscow" is really a stone-throwing howitzer so it is out, so that leaves Col. Paixhans 24" Monster Mortar.  Yes, there are a few others that are worthy as well, but we have to keep things simple.  Simplicity is another reason for choosing Paixhans' mortar.  It was basically a cylinder of cast iron with a chamber, vent and bore machined into it.  Yes, it will look like the original, as an outer, welded-steel-skin will surround the functional core.

     Tim,   Now, now, now........I suppose you want to see some pyrotechnics, eh?  Hate to disappoint a good guy such as yourself, but BLACK POWDER ONLY rules are in affect with ALL muzzle-stuffers including this one.  If you come out to Broomfield on business in April, maybe you can light the fuse on this beast for it's Black Powder Proof.   :o :o

     Cannonmn,   Thanks for re-posting that video, John, Mike and I both like that one a lot.  What a beautiful mortar that is!!  We will consider the 45 deg. angle, but having not seen any reference to a firing angle for this mortar, we think it might have been steeper to effect a more crushing blow, because the yardage was so short, at only 1,000 yards.  And, as you certainly know, to get powder magazine or casemate arch penetration you need lots of height in your trajectory for extra speed of impact.  We will not be using any "wads", but are considering a couple 3/4" thick disks of Baltic Birch plywood and a 1/4" thick disk of boiler plate bolted on to the projectile's base to protect the concrete from the central powder blast.

     Those Dynamite Guns were really weird looking, but I've read that you DID NOT want to be the object of their bombardment, especially of those 15 inchers on the Vesuvius!  concerning the bleed-off of black powder gasses, I wonder how long that would work without vigorous cleaning of the parts in that assembly?

     Dominick,   Right on!  That's exactly what we are talking about.  All BP mortars use that principle to launch relatively heavy projectiles with moderate powder charges without causing damage to the relatively thin wall surrounding the projectile.

     Double D,   You can use this formula for scaling the weight of any object as long as every dimension is reduced by the same percentage.  It can be used for forms like artillery tubes or powder charges, round balls or steel I-Beams.  Yes, it is a scaled volume which directly effects weight.  We probably mentioned this before, but I can't remember which thread it was on.  Yes, the  PPM, (Paixhans Monster Mortar) will have a powder chamber and it's measurements will be scaled down to hold two pounds and not thirty.  The charge that we expect will push the projectile to 100 yards is only .8 lb., but the chamber will be designed to hold 2 lbs so that we can get 250 to 300 yards out of this mortar.  The scale for this mortar is 2/5, although 1/6 is what we use to reduce those huge seacoast guns down to a manageable size and weight. 

Regards, Tracy and Mike



     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2009, 07:15:42 AM »
Okay Got my head wrapped around it...I think. 

Just to make sure I understand.  Is there parity between the demensions of 2/5 scaling down of 30 lbs chamber demensions and the demensions needed to hold a volume of powder equal to 2/5 of the volume of 30 lbs of powder?

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2009, 09:15:45 AM »
Volume is scaled in three dimensions, as opposed to the two-dimensional scaling of blueprints.

A powder chamber at 40% (2/5) scale would contain only 6.4% volume.

A chamber with a capacity of 30 pounds of BP, at 2/5 scale, would have a capacity of 1.92 pounds.


Does this make any sense?

Offline Double D

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2009, 09:47:36 AM »
Okay let say this the same differently.

These demensions are hypothetical for discussion only.

Lets say I have a cylinder that is 10 inch in diameter by 20 inches long and this cylinder hold 30 lbs of powder.

If I reduce the cylinder by 2/5's-40% the cylinder will now be 4 inch by 8 inch.  The capacity of this cylinder now be 1.92 pounds.

Is this correct?

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2009, 10:22:22 AM »
Yes.

Using you hypothetical dimensions:

At 10" dia. x 20" long your cylinder would have a volume of 1570.796 cubic inches.

At 4" dia. x 8" long (2/5 scale) it would have a volume of 100.531 cubic inches.

100.531 is 6.4% of 1570.796.


The measurements for your 2/5 cylinder are based on two dimensions.

To convert volume, you need to use three dimensions:

2/5 x 2/5 x 2/5 = 0.4 x 0.4 x 0.4 = 0.064 = 6.4%


Edited to add: For simplicity, the volume I used is based on a simple cylinder with flat ends. The PMM has a hemispherical chamber bottom, but the math still applies.

Offline Double D

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2009, 11:10:03 AM »
Got it!

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2009, 11:47:16 AM »
     There are only two wrinkles. One is the hemisphere at the end.  For our calc. we used hV=2/3 PI R3.  And the other is the fact that different sizes of powder grains require different volumes.  So, the closest we can come to the weight of powder the original powder chamber held is 30.9 pounds. The dimensions of the original powder chamber were 9" dia. X 19" long.  They probably used a larger grain powder than Goex 1 Fg, and therefore it required more volume.  The value we used was 33 cu. in. per pound of 1 Fg.  If this is off a little you can yell at Mike.  I admit to all calculations but that one.  All I know was that he tickled a Goex can with a caliper and clickety-clacked on his calculator for about half an hour to get that figure.  

    Thanks Terry; it's a little more clear now and we agree with your volume and 1.92 lbs. figure as well.  Now you know why we picked 2 lbs as the total capacity of our chamber.  

     Also, NO we do not believe we need 1 or 1.2 pounds of Cream-of-Wheat filler while firing reduced loads as there is lots of air space under almost all mortar rounds except for custom made competition types.  Ours will be no different.  Bowling balls are spherical.  Knowing this, look at the shape of the gas cylinders that launch them in the area of the ball seat.  Hemispherical?  No it's not!  Plenty of air space there too.   Our chamber will be 4" dia X 8" long with the hemi added.  This is to allow a little more than 2 lbs. in case we need a little more to get the 5 gal. Water Jugs out to 300 yds.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2009, 01:25:32 PM »
If you need filler, I have a 10 gallon trash bag full of kapok.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2009, 03:31:10 AM »
     
     Those Dynamite Guns were really weird looking, but I've read that you DID NOT want to be the object of their bombardment, especially of those 15 inchers on the Vesuvius!  concerning the bleed-off of black powder gasses, I wonder how long that would work without vigorous cleaning of the parts in that assembly?

 In reading T.R.'s account of his experience with the guns in "The Rough Riders", they had maintenance problems with them. In one passage, I remember him recording (paraphrasing here) "The machinists got the gun firing again." I'm pretty sure I remember that he did say "machinists" and not "mechanics" or "armorers." I'll have to get that book back from a friend and read it again. Great story.

 Edit - Just found this. The gun sounds like a real piece of precision engineering!

http://www.spanamwar.com/dynarept.htm
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 04:54:34 AM »
MIke and Tracy, Here is another neat design that you could make to shoot concrete filled jugs.

Max


Max

Offline Double D

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 05:10:23 AM »
BLINK!!!

The light just came on.

1. This Mortar is going to be big.

2. M&T are going to need a crew of strong backs and weak minds.

3. We are going have a gathering of group of folks who may fit the strong back weak mind description.

Hum, these Seacoast Guys are some pretty crafty fellows, hey!  :) :)


I went to see the Knee surgeon yesterday and he recommended knee replacement surgery for me.  Get the new knee Feb 2.  The Doctor warned me it would require a change in life style.  No jogging or skydiving, no pushing the wife's cart around Wal-Mart and no crewing on a Paixhan's Mortar crews. I was so disappointed.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Offline KABAR2

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2009, 06:38:22 AM »
BLINK!!!
 


I went to see the Knee surgeon yesterday and he recommended knee replacement surgery for me.  Get teh new knee Feb 2.  The Doctor warned me it would require a change in life style.  No jogging or skydiving, no pushing the wife's cart around Wal-Mart and no crewing on a Paixhan's Mortar crews. I was so disappointed.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D



DD I feel your pain! No idea when I'll have my knee replaced I guess I won't be crewing on this little beastie either............

DD we'll have to make a scale model of their scale model in the micro scale catagory......... the projo won't have the "THUD" factor...
:-[



Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Victor3

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2009, 02:14:47 AM »
 180# hurts my back just thinking about it.

 Might want to look into these...

http://www.greif.com/packaging-systems/water-bottles/5_Gallon_Handle/default.asp

 You could slip a pipe through the handle opening and get two guys to lift and load.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2009, 03:28:46 AM »
Why hurt yourselves with 180 lbs.? Just insert an empty jug and fill it with the concrete a little at a time. Wait a few days for it to set while you are making out your wills and saying your good-byes to friends and family. Then touch it off.

Only trying to help :-\
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2009, 08:51:20 AM »
      Well, I just got off the phone with the tubing dealer/mfg. and his news is not good.  11" ID DOM is available in 1/2" thk., but it's $500 delivered and 3/4" which we decided would be better is $750, so we are back to square one.  There is no scrap in ANY of the Denver or suburban yards in the 11" ID x 3 ft x 1/2" category.  So, as much as we wanted to send a huge cloud of Kapok and a big projectile downrange, I guess we will be in the idea phase once again.

      Maybe we will get to design our rifled bowling ball mortar after all.  Does anybody have any idea how consistent bowling balls are as far as diameter goes? 

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

I suggested Max Caliber's "Beast Mortar" design since we know a sculptor and he had just one word for it.  "Yikes!"
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2009, 09:08:10 AM »
"Ten-Pin" balls are standard 8.5" and btw 10 & 16 lbs. I don't think you are going to run into smaller "Duck-Pin" ball or any of the others.
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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2009, 09:16:32 AM »
Thanks Richard, but what we need to know is how consistent they are from ball to ball in that size.  Has anyone actually measured 10 or 20 of them to see how much variation there is in either circumference or diameter?

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2009, 09:19:15 AM »
There is no scrap in ANY of the Denver or suburban yards in the 11" ID x 3 ft x 1/2" category.

I can drive down to my supplier of things like this and see what he has if you like.  A piece like that will weigh about 180 lbs.  I don't know what the going price for secondhand steel is these days but the shipping from SoCal isn't going to be cheap either.

Has anyone actually measured 10 or 20 of them to see how much variation there is in either circumference or diameter?

Assuming you mean ordinary bowling balls, I have around 100 and can check some although I am not sure I can make measurements to .001" (I don't think I have an 8-9" mike.)  Maybe I can put them on a surface plate and measure with a height gauge.
GG
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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2009, 10:12:49 AM »
     George that would be great if you could check for us.  The range of sizes would be from 10.900" to 11.250" I.D. and from 1/2" to 3/4" thk.
There is some variation based on exactly what type of product it is.  The odd size wall thk. usually happens when you get Hot Formed Seamless and sometimes it intrudes upon the nominal I.D. reducing it to 10.920" or 10.950" or some other non-std. size.
     The height gage/surface plate method is super!  Measurement in three places at random should be enough.  This equipment is what we use for big stuff too. I think that just 10 or 12 would tell the story.  We will buy you a big Montana Dinner if we all get there.

Thank you,

Mike and Tracy
     

     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2009, 10:41:34 AM »
The range of sizes would be from 10.900" to 11.250" I.D. and from 1/2" to 3/4" thk.

How about length variation?
GG
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Offline Double D

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Re: Building the Paixhans Monster Mortar & Water Cooler Jug w/Concrete Projos
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2009, 11:11:30 AM »
If you go to the sticky's at teh top of the page anf Tim's reference post and look through there you wilf find this  link: http://www.topendsports.com/sport/tenpin/dimensions.htm

Quote
BALL
Bowling Ball Material Regulations
A bowling ball shall be constructed without voids in its interior, be of a non-metallic composition material and conform to the specifications for weight, size and balance. The use of minute reflective particles or flakes for decorative purposes shall be permitted in bowling ball material provided such flakes or particles are made part of the ball at the time of manufacture, are evenly distributed in a uniform pattern under a transparent shell at least 1/4" beneath the surface of the ball so as to have no effect on the balance, and the total amount of such material does not exceed 1/2 ounce per ball. Also, the surface hardness shall not be less than 72 Durometers "D."

So what are they made of?
In the 1960s, hard rubber balls were used. Polyester balls took over as the ball of choice in the '70s. You will find that most of the 'house balls' in your local bowling alley are made of the polyester. In the '80s the urethane ball was developed, which then were further developed to reactive and proactive urethane.


Bowling Ball Weight, Size, Markings & Holes
The circumference of a ball shall not be more than 27.002 inches nor less than 26.704 inches, nor shall it weigh more than 16 lbs (there is no minimum weight).
The diameter of the ball must be constant.
The surface of the ball must be free of all depressions or grooves of specific pattern, except for holes or indentations used for gripping the ball, identification letters and numbers, and incidental chipping or marring caused by wear.
Other Requirements
Movable devices are not permitted in a ball except that a device for changing the finger span or size of the finger and thumb holes may be inserted provided it is locked into position during delivery and cannot be removed from the ball without being destroyed.
The introduction of metal or any other substance no comparable to the original material used in the manufacture of the ball is prohibited.
Plugs may be inserted for the purpose of re-drilling; ball. Designs may be embedded in a ball as guides or for observation or identification purposes provided the designs are flush with the outer surface of the ball.
There shall be no interior voids and the plugs or designs must be of similar material to although not exactly the same as the original material out of which the ball was made; and shall otherwise comply with all bowling ball specifications.
No foreign material may be placed on the outer surface of the ball.
The surface hardness of a bowling ball shall not be less than 72 Durometer 'D'.
Number of holes allowed
see information on the ball drilling page

I have two rounds of ammunition on site for such a gun