Author Topic: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308  (Read 3076 times)

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Offline willmo

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Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« on: January 23, 2009, 03:33:33 AM »
I've had my Tikka T3 Lite Stainless in a .308 for 2 years.  Maybe have 150 rounds through her.  When I broke in the barrel, I was getting .75" groups with cheap Federal ammo.  This hunting season I experienced many odd flyers that I couldn't explain.  And my groups have opened up to 1-1.5" and flyers out to 2-3".  I clean the barrel after every shooting session.  The scope mount is the standard Tikka scope mounts.  I have a Burris Fullfield II scope on her.

I just started to reload .308.  Using 150g Nosler Ballistic tip, 44g-46g IMR 4064, OAL 2.800.  I had some two shot groups that were touching at 100, then a couple 2" flyers.  Shooting on a Caldwell Lead Sled.

What am I doing wrong?  (lots of variables) Could it be the scope mount?  (I'm planning on getting the Talley rings)
Could I have damaged the barrel somehow?  Crown doesn't look damaged. 

Any ideas.?  I know this rifle is capable of shooting .75" groups, but I just can seem to get that anymore.

Thanks for your help.
Will

Offline KzoneAL

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2009, 05:00:39 PM »
Maybe barrel temp after the first two shots.Try letting it cool longer between shots.

Offline wareagleguy

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2009, 02:28:50 AM »
Tikka scope mounts are not the best in the world.  I would replace mounts and also swap scope with another that you know is in good working order.

If all that checks out fine you may want to check the muzzle crown.
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Offline BigBamBoo

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2009, 12:34:52 PM »
If your using the stock Tikka scope rings I would toss those ASAP. I use EGW bases on my T3's as seen here: http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=39&products_id=221

 Also...when was the last time you cleaned it? And HOW do you clean it? This may come as a surprise to most...but it is not copper fouling that causes accuracy to decline as much as carbon fouling. To remove carbon you need a good carbon remover like Isso. I do NOT recomend JB or any abrasive to paste.
 Good cleaning tools...one piece rod, bore guide,etc. are important.

 I own two Lite models currently and have owned the Tactical model as well. All will shoot sub 1/2" five shot groups at 100 yrds with factory ammo and me doing my part.

Take care,Stan 

Offline willmo

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 04:50:07 AM »
Guys, thanks for the comments. 

I clean my rifle after every shooting session.  I use various products, mainly Hoppes No#9, no# 10 Copper Cutter and Kroil.  I don't think there is any copper build up.  I have used JB paste too.  (Sorry Bigbamboo)  I use a one piece rod and a bore guide.  I inspect the bore and its pretty clean in there.... Its a stainless barrel,  not sure if there are different rules about shooting and cleaning...

I plan on getting the Talley rings this week.   I have witness lines on all fasteners and the scope.  Nothing is slipping.  But, I've heard too many people say to dump the stock Tikka mounts..

Thanks,
Will

Offline oldelkhunter

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2009, 09:52:09 AM »
I would get rid of the stock mounts and install talley lightweights or Dednutz mounts. I feel those two are the better mounts out there for Tikka at least that I have used . I don't have experience with Warnes but others have said nice things about them.  I use wipeout foam exclusively on my Tikka and Sako rifle and never had any sort of buildup. I use Accelerator  first and then the foam and let it sit for a day after I  apply it. The bore on the Tikka that I own which is a .308 is extremely smooth and I get very little copper out of it when it does get cleaned.  If you could find someone that has a compatible scope I would borrow it and attempt grouping it again. I am leaning towards the mounts/scope combo. I had trashed the last Burris Fullfield I  owned in a lightweight 300 win mag and I don't think it survived 30 rounds before it went belly up. A T3 in 308 has a bit of a shove so that may be the culprit.
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Offline willmo

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2009, 03:15:56 AM »
I kinda think its a scope/mount issue too.  While I was breaking in the rifle, I was getting sub 1" groups with cheap ammo.  I was floored that a rifle could perform like that out of the box.  Then the pattern started to open up after about a year of casual shooting.  I'm starting to shoot more, since I'm now reloading .308 and was hoping for some tight groups again.  I really don't want to spend 300-500 on a new scope, but I sure don't have the confidence in this rifle anymore.  ( I hope its the rings...)

I should get the new rings today.  If the weather cooperates, I'll test things out and report back.

Thanks,
Will

Offline kiddekop

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2009, 09:48:33 AM »
I have 2 sakos and have been cleaning them the usual way with brush & patches but I kept seeing traces of burnt powder so I used some JB, problem solved better accuracy.

Offline willmo

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2009, 10:47:28 AM »
It's funny, I read some information that states JB is the best product in the world and it can keep a barrel and/or revives an abused/dirty barrel better than any product ever.  Then read another article that states JB will ruin a barrel. 

Its hard to know for sure.  But, I'm leaning towards not using it anymore..  I figure the non-abrasive products should do a good job of keeping the bore clean of fouling and copper build-up. 

Will


Offline BigBamBoo

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2009, 07:55:59 AM »
It's funny, I read some information that states JB is the best product in the world and it can keep a barrel and/or revives an abused/dirty barrel better than any product ever.  Then read another article that states JB will ruin a barrel. 

Its hard to know for sure.  But, I'm leaning towards not using it anymore..  I figure the non-abrasive products should do a good job of keeping the bore clean of fouling and copper build-up. 

Will



 Hi Will. I shoot bench rest matches and among most of the BR shooters JB is a big no no. Just take some in your fingers and rub it. It is very abrasive...NOT what you want to put in your barrel. Everyone has their own way of cleaning, but many do more damage to their barrels then good. Due to lack of knowledge.
 Like running your brush out of the barrel and then pulling it back through. Everytime you do that your going across the crown...not good. I push the brush through and then remove it and then remove the rod and re-install the brush.
 With a jag and patch....I put a cardboard box against the end of the barrel. Same thing....not running across the crown.

 My cleaning involves different products to get the different fouling out. I have yet to see a "do all" cleaner. Even though they state it on the bottle.

 A bore scope goes a long way in telling what is going on inside your barrel. A good smith will scope it for free and tell you what your missing in cleaning.
 Remember...carbon builds up from the chamber to about 6-7" down the barrel. Copper builds up in the last 8-10" of the barrel. I have seen more accuracy problems with carbon build up...NOT copper.

 I use a product called Iosso. It is a paste, but is not like JB. It will remove carbon very well. Do a search for it. I buy all my cleaning supplies from Brownells and they stock it.

 Good luck,Stan


 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2009, 12:27:45 PM »
JB is a MILD abrasive. It will cut the fouling but isn't going to harm the barrel. Even if you used it EVERY TIME you shoot you'd wear the barrel out from shooting long before JB would do harm to the metal in that barrel.

It really isn't necessary to use it every time you clean tho only when you've really got it fouled badly. Many if not most of the chemical cleaners will or can do more harm to the barrel than JB will. It will actually improve your barrel unless it's a micro finish match barrel. That's kinda why it's not needed on benchrest guns as they all have such match barrels polished to a micro honed finish already. JB will actually help your factory barrel get there faster tho it will not take off useful life in the barrel.


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Offline BigBamBoo

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2009, 03:00:51 PM »
From the mouth (or fingers) of well known barrel makers...I don't know...I think they know a bit more about barrel and barrel cleaning them 99% of us out here. Take it for what its worth:

Chris Dichter, Owner, Pac-Nor Barreling
"My preference is cleaning every 20-30 rounds. We settled on the Witches' Brew from Dave Holland, which is 1200 micron-inch aluminum oxide in Kroil. It removes anything that isn't gun-barrel steel. It gets carbon and copper out very effectively. Be careful with JB and abrasives--A JB'd patch around a bristle brush can become a lap more than a cleaning agent."

John Krieger, Krieger Barrels
"I've been asked about the abrasive bore cleaners. My advice is to proceed with caution. Use JB sparingly. A JB-coated patch  becomes more of a surface lap. I've seen people actually lap a taper in their bore using JB on a patch. You want to clean your barrel, not change its dimensions! I'd just put JB on a bristle brush if you feel compelled to use it."


Gary Schneider, Schneider Rifle Barrels
"For the carbon build-up in the throat area, I don't think you need to treat that differently than fouling elsewhere in the bore. I discourage the use of abrasives. JB is a 1200-grit lapping compound. When you use it aggressively, some of that black you see on the patch is barrel steel. JB and Rem-Clean can remove steel and, in my opinion, used to excess, these products will decrease the life of the barrel. Yes I know Tony Boyer uses lots of JB. But he keeps a large inventory of barrels and he has no compunction about wearing out a barrel. Most shooters demand longer barrel life and hence should avoid using abrasives."


Bill Shehane, Two-Time IBS 1000-Yard Shooter of the Year, Owner D&B Supply
"For normal cleaning I use regular Montana X-Treme liquid solvent, with Montana X-Treme Bore Creme every other match or so (100-150 rounds). I use 50 BMG for break-in or if I have a barrel that is giving a problem with copper fouling. (Using the 50 BMG during a break-in procedure, after 15-20 rounds the new barrel is ready to go.) I used to use JB pretty religiously every 100-150 rounds. Now I use the MT X-Treme bore cream in a syringe and it works just as well as the JB and it's not as abrasive. If you use it in the throat area every 100-150 rounds I find you can keep the carbon build-up under control."


Michelle Sutton, Co-Owner, Hart Rifle Barrels
"I've also personally witnessed the damage that can be done with over-aggressive cleaning. I had one barrel that I cleaned using Rem-Clean on a patch over a brass brush. (Rem-Clean is an abrasive similar to JB.) I made 10 round-trips through the bore, running the brush just a bit past the muzzle on each cycle. Then I went out and shot the gun. The groups were terrible and the last two inches of the barrel was packed with copper. I inspected what had been a nice shiny, sharp crown and it looked like it had been bead-blasted. I then measured the bore diameter at the crown and found that the groove dimension had increased .0002" (two ten-thousandths). I ended up cutting a half-inch off the barrel and recrowning it, but the barrel still shot very poorly. It basically had been ruined for competitive purposes.

Chris Dichter has observed that JB on a patch can work like a lap. I personally saw how Rem-Clean on a patch can behave similarly."





Offline doctordisaster

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2009, 01:00:41 AM »
Willmo
You wrote 44-46gr IMR 4064.That could be it there.Are your reloading in that range or does the brass have anywhere from 44-46 in it.They should all be the same .10gr can change lots of things.Just not sure what you mean.

Offline willmo

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 05:34:15 AM »
I'm reloading in that range to find the best load/bullet combo...  I just started reloading .308 for the Tikka. 

I mounted the scope in the new Talley lightweight rings.  Question, how many pound of torque should I have on the base and rings?

Also, is there any special way to re-install the stock.  I heard someone say there was a specific order to which screws were tighten and to a specific poundage?  Can anyone shed some light?

Thanks,
Will

Offline Chief GEEK

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2009, 12:56:03 AM »
I sure would like to know how this turned out willmo! I am going thru the same oscilations right now. It would be very helpful.

Offline PA-Joe

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2009, 01:21:47 AM »
How are you reloading (what equipment) and what are you using to measure the powder? When you reload have you measured the empty case length to make certain that it is all the same length before you seat the bullet and are you measuring the COL of the loaded rounds? What primers are you using. Mag primers may cause flyers.

Offline Harry Snippe

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2009, 07:14:13 AM »
And -if and when ,you read the manual , It states not to use a brush to clean. Justa a patch.

My tikka never seen a brush other than nylon. It did not group the best out of the box , but since has improved . No issues after about 100 rounds to date

I hope you have not done something to the gun, when it might have been the glass and mounts .

Loading too might be something to look At . Are you still using the same componets and equipment as when you started ?
Happy

Offline smong2000

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2009, 08:08:29 AM »
I've been burned a couple times by my own reloads.  You may have picked a bullet your barrel doesn't like or have variation in the process.   If you are really concerned you should make sure your brass is matched by headstamp and weight and number of firings (or length).  I thought I had ruined a rifle myself when I mixed up some brass by make, weight and number of times fired.  After sorting them and trimming them up the groups came back down.  To really judge get some new brass, sort it, size it and load, weighing each measure by hand and use weighed bullets.  For gong practice, go ahead and use the mixed stuff, but for paper punching don't mess around, variabe les are not your friend.  When i get good load dialed in, i've been loading up 50 rounds at one time, same everything to use as my standard test.  I label the box, set them aside and only use them as a test -it's bailed me out twice so far.

Offline willmo

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Re: Accuracy has fallen off on my T3 Lite .308
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2009, 04:36:22 PM »
Its been a while since is fooled around with my T3.  I finally got it dialed in with my reloads. 
Bullet - 165g Hornady BTSP.
Powder - 44g Varget
OAL 2.805
Primer - CCI 200
Case - Once Fired Federal

Groups under .5" at 100 yards.  For some reason, I can't get my 150g reloads to group under moa.

Also, I haven't cleaned it for about 40-50 shots.  I'll clean it after deer season...

Thanks,
Will