Pa deer hunters are crazy

[manofthe45]

Hate to see you leave the ranks, but we have had this same arguement elsewhere and were both unable to change the others mind then and I doubt we can now either, but if you can make it to the S.E. I can probably put you on deer.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  DDelle, As I said before, I no longer live in Pa., but as my girl friend reminds me, that is where our roots are. So, I have I and I suppose I will always have an interest in what happens there. When I retired it was with the goal of spending part of my year in good old Pa. After a change in policy under Alt, the whole face of Pa. hunting change, as you and everyone well knows. As a nonresident, there is little I can do to change this situation. But cannot the sportsman of the state demand a new game commission? Being voted out of office wakes a political crook up pretty fast. While a 3 day doe season may not be the answer to controlling the herd, it could be held for a week over Christmas. I know that is muzzleloader season, but honestly I get a bit tired of all the special interest goups asking for yet another special season. Anyway that would get hunters in the woods after does, and give us a quiter buck season.  I also think cutting the timber on game lands in the mts. would certainly benefit all game. Now much of that area is a biological desert. Our key here is to remove these folks who have sold us out to the insurance companies and timber companies. I still fail to see how anyone could be happier seeing less deer. I loved to watch does slipping though the woods, even if I saw the same bunch several times. As we have said, we have nice bucks now, but we ALWAYS had nice bucks, and lots of does, and lots of little bucks. So unless we force a new commission we are screwed.   I think 45 mentioned the game comm. is to care for phesants, grouse, squirrels, rabbits and other game and non game, Since I have retired, I usually hunt with two golden retrievers for small game. At one time they planted lots of phesants on local game lands. That progam has been scrapped as "too expensive". The whole progam could have been funded by firing a couple dead beats in the game comm. As far as any other small game, I haven't kicked out a cottontail in years, squirrels seem to be a thing of the past, and grouse, well I have seen a few, but as a young man I could see more in one afternoon than I do in a whole season in Pa. now. So other than lining their pockets at our expense, I don't see the comm. doing anything for the game or hunter is Pa. One only has to visit other states to see how sicking things are in Pa. However  as my girlfriend says Pa. is our roots, I cannot walk away and forget it. I think it is especially frutrating to see our deer slaughtered to benefit a few insurance companies. Like Lawyers, I think we would be better of if they were all erased from the face of the earth. I am not sure folks realize how much insurance folks make, we had a guy I taught with here in Wy. He was a teacher for 15 years. He dove a beatup 2 wheel drive Ford pickup. It was junk. But he couldn't afford better. He got out of teaching, went into the insurance racket. With in 5 years, he paid off his house, bought a new 4 wheel drive truck,  asnowmachine, a fourwheeler, and an interest in a  ranch.  When I filed a claim on a damaged camper, he said it was too old to get anything for it. BUT he had been collecting insurance on it each mth.  As long as these guys are around, the days of Jessie James will not beover. And our game commission is in their pocket.

[DDelle338]

  I hear what your saying about the game commission. And as stated, they are not the deer commission. Why are they not doing anything with our small game? Yes there has been a great jump in the Bear population. How? Alt did some studies and they closed the season down! There has been a great advancement in the turkey population. Why? Well mostly due to the efforts of the NWTF!! I moved away from PA in 1979. Before that, I used to do allot of small game hunting. Pheasants, rabbits and squirrels. When I moved back here in Oct. 1996 I brought my Best Hunting Partner (a Golden) with me. I had to apologize to him for making him run around the fields all day and not get the chance to retrieve anything! Where did all the game go!? I have been told that the pheasants were eaten by Hawks, eaten by foxes, or killed by pesticides, bird flu, and possibly the loss of nesting areas has reduced the numbers to almost 0. Has anyone done a study? There is a cemetery within the city limits that used to hold tons of them.  Now they aren’t there either. And none of the above explanations apply to this area. Where have all the pheasants and rabbits gone? What has the PGC done to earn all the money they take in??
  Maybe I should have started a new rant... I mean thread for this but, anyway......  I guess I'm just whining because I'm in between seasons right now and have to vent my frustrations.

[manofthe45]

Trout season opens in the S.E. on saturday and turkey is right around the bend so take a deep breath and two of these and it will all be better in the morning.  Well maybe I am pretty sure the layoff slip is gonna hit me tom, but hey a month or so off the day before trout opens and the kid is born might not be so bad.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  45 did I read this right, You will be a father before trout season?
If so Congradulations

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  since I am on this site now, where in Pa. do they have decent trout fishing. I know State College has some good streams. Where I lived in Indiana Co. they have a fly project that is catch and release. But I was thinking about the northern counties, do they still have good fishing most of the summer or is it done by June???

[manofthe45]

Sorry I didn't write it clearly. She is due May 17, but even according to her doc if she makes it till then its a miracle.  So local fishing is fine, but unfortantly any striper fishing will be at BlueMarsh near Reading.  For some reason she doesn't want me 2 miles out from the dock 4 hours away.

As for good trout.  Most of our streams here in the S.E. are put and take by the end of may.  Anteidum lake is a deep bowl and has some hold over but with shore access only they are hard to get to.  Hopeing to hit Raystown for lake trout this summer

[irold]

DDelle and coyote hunter , 

Both of you seem to be on the right track......at least in my opinon.  I agree with most of what ya said.  Not only have we lost much of the deer herd , our small game has disappeared too.  Unfortunately I don't have  any dogs...never needed them.  I cud usually kick out enough game on a Saturday to satisfy myself , besides , as ya said , I enjoy being out.  This is no bull....I have not seen a ringneck in the woods to shoot at for over 5 years. During the fall I occusionally see one standing along the road , probably lost from the pen.  I DO NOT or WILL NOT follow stocking trucks nor do I check their schedules.  There's probably several hundred acreas of corn planted yearly with in a 10 mile radius of our camp....no ringnecks, only a grouse or two , no squirrel , no deer.......somethings wrong with this picture.  Yes , there have been a few coyotes killed around , but I don't think they're to blame.......unless they've learned to fly.  During the winter seasons , there's not many tracks.  Probably the hawks take some too........I just don;t understand , maybe 45's right ...I'm getting too old.   

Oh , and yes , Congradulations 45....may ya have a healthy baby and enjoy....spend time , lots of time with the kids.

As far as trout fishing........I am getting old....too many people , standing elbow to elbow....not gonna follow that stock truck around either......  regards , irold

[DDZ]

The Pa game commission has become just like a big overgrown bureaucratic government. Money is not spent eficiently, and they keep needing more as the number of hunters decline in Pa. The game comm. just like government will never decrease its size, it will just keep expanding, and needing more money. Everything they do is based on money, not hunters interest. Just like government.

Starting with small game hunting, the game comm. has ruined wild pheasant hunting in Pa. with thier stocking program. When I started hunting in Pa. in 1969 thier were a lot of wild pheasants in SW Pa. Along comes the game comm. with thier stocking program, and there is not a wild pheasant to be found. They almost ruined turkey hunting when they started a turkey stocking program, but thanks to a couple people with brains this was stopped before the wild stock was gone.

As for the antler restrictions. This was done to lure out of state hunters into Pa. (more money for game comm) The idea of big bucks was thought of to gain an increase in revenue for the game comm. I have hunted in the same 200 acres or so in SW Pa. since I started hunting at the age of 12. I remember that if one of my family members or I saw a spike, it was a rare occourance. There were always a couple of nice bucks in the area to go along with the 18 month old bucks. Most of the 18 month old bucks sported six or eight points, because of the farm land and good food source.

Then along came the game comm. that told us they were going to make it better for hunters with more big bucks. (Big lie)
Since the antler restriction, 4 points to a side in my area, the bucks have gotten smaller. This year I had never seen so many tiny antlered bucks, spikes and bucks with small thin antlers. This was unheard of 10 years ago. The reason is there are not enough young hunters to take a very large number of the infierior bucks, which were always shot before. SW Pa. has mostly small wood lots and fields. So the bucks that have good genes and make it to the next year are almost always taken when they are 2 1/2 years old. The small bucks are left to do most of the breeding and pass thier inferior genes along. I would bet that the four or five small bucks that I saw this year will never have eight points. Most of the area is private ground and there are still a good number of does, so yes the small bucks are doing a lot of breeding. Maybe restrictions work in other areas but not here. To I, and our family a four or six point was as much a trophy as an eight point.

So never think the game comm. does things to suit your interest. It is all about money, and always will be. 
   

[shotgunner]

Where have all the rabbits gone? I shot 4 of them yesterday. There are tons of turkeys, squirrels, rabbits and grouse. There are also geese and ducks. The state is not stocking phesants like they used to. I think that the postings to this thread support it's title. You guys go ahead and quit, I will keep enjoying the quality outdoor experence PA has to offer. Shotgunner

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

shotgunner, while you  maybe have tons of small game and turkey, that is not the case in much of Pa. I have only seen a couple rabbits in the woods inthe last 10 years and they were infront of beagles...as for grouse, I maybe see 2 a year..squirrels areeven more scarce...plus the good old game comm. has done nothing for years to improve the small game inthis state...you are lucky you are insuch a great spot, and i would guess you have a bunch of private land at your disposial...the only  folks I ever met that were truely impressed with pa. today either have very private hunting, or never hunted anywhere else to any degree.....

[Dakota30.06]

I spent many hours in my climber, bow in hand, this fall...and can count on one hand how many squirrels I saw...as far as rabbits go...havnt seen one (while hunting) in the past 2 seasons. I dont use dogs or anything...but you'd still think I could stumble into some type of small game.

[DDZ]

The first day of small game in Pa used to be big. Now its an after thought. In this area I doubt you could find a small game hunter afield the first day. Used to be many participated. So what is the reason? I can tell you one big reason, there isn't any small game to hunt anymore. I really can't say the PGC had anything to do with the grouse and rabbit numbers, but its a fact they destroyed the wild pheasants with their stocked bird program.   

[shotgunner]

What exactly did the game commission do to eliminate the rabbits and grouse? Are the car companies worried about running over rabbits and now there is a conspiracy to get rid of them? I hunt both private and public land, and I get around some. I really honestly think that some of you have gone off the deep end. Shotgunner

[Swampman]

The last time I was in PA I had a fellow and his son walk up to me and say they hadn't seen a deer in 3 days of hunting.  I'd never seen so many deer in my life.  We had been seeing herds of 10-40 deer all day long for the last 3 days in the same area.

[Dakota30.06]

I'm pretty sure nobody blamed the game commish for there not being any rabbits 

as for seeing herds of 10-40 deer 3 days in a row...better not let me find out where you hunt...I'll be sitting in the woods right there next to ya

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

swampman,when did you last hunt pa.??we used to see herds like that all the time, not now...while some may think we have gone off the deep end, i have hunted since 1959, what pa.l was and what it is now is sad.....

[DDZ]

what pa.l was and what it is now is sad.....

I agree Wyo. Although I have not hunted Pa as long as you. I have hunted Pa since 69. The very first day I hunted was the fall of 69 when small game came in. My father got four rabbits and two pheasants, and I got three rabbits and two pheasants. This was with a single shot 20 gauge. Not boasting about my marksmanship with a shotgun when I was 12, but there was just that much game. Believe me there was a good bit of missing going on, and mostly from me. That was without any kind of dog also. The birds were wild pheasants and not the chickens the GC puts out and calls pheasants.
I have always wanted to go to the Dakotas and hunt wild pheasants. Nothing like flushing a fast flying pheasant from a corn field, or an old grown up Pasteur or hay field. Never had the time or money to do the trip, and with the way things are now most likely never will.   

Shotgunner, reread my post I never said the GC had anything to do with rabbit and grouse numbers. It is a fact that neither are in abundance like they used to be. I will say it again, the GC destroyed the wild pheasants in Pa. 

Any of you guys remember when the GC got the brainy idea of stocking turkeys? We had them coming up on our porch. They were just like big chickens. These things had no fear of people. I can't remember the guys name, but there was someone that had enough stroke and brains to get the turkey stocking program stopped. If it had not been stopped we would not have the wild turkey flocks we have now. Now the GC is trying to ruin deer hunting in Pa. with their stupid antler restrictions, and their never ending doe license allotments and seasons.
 The license sales big drop off is an indication of this. Never think that the GC has your best interests in mind. It is all about money. You can take that to the bank.

   

[Dakota30.06]

DDZ, I agree with you on the license dropoff. Over the past few years I usually only see 2 or 3 guys on the first day of the season...then on the second day my dad and I usually have the woods to ourselves...the odds of seeing a bigfoot are better than the odds of seeing another hunter during the second week. I really think alot of the problem is that there arnt near the hunters in the woods needed to move the deer. Where we hunt there are more and more posted signs popping up every season...the small deer heard left gets pushed onto these posted acres...or where no hunters have been and just bed down.

I understand the argument that you need to go to where the deer are...that you just cant sit in the same spot every year and expect to have a deer come strolling up to you....however lets be realistic...I'll use my dad as an example...he's closing in on 60 years old...you cant expect him to hike 2 or 3 miles through swamps, briars, accross revines etc. So what if he shoots a nice buck?? he surely cant drag it out (usually on dry ground anymore) on his own...the paramedics will end up dragging him out the next morning. I suppose some would argue he shouldnt be hunting then

Those of you who are seeing tons of deer or have your own posted acreage with food plots etc....you are very lucky

[shotgunner]

Dakota

You bring up a very important point. Hunters are getting older. I mean that, the guys who do hunt are aging and fewer young people are getting involved. This is the case with the gun clubs and shooting sports also. Kids are playing video games and spending all night doing it, and sleeping the weekends away. If it continues, and we raise a whole generation of 'indoorsmen" the future of hunting and shooting sports is in jeopardy. Take a kid hunting. The youth days are perfect for this. Shotgunner

[shotgunner]

DZZ

Do you think that farming practices had anything to do with pheasants? I used to raise my own, kept breeders and hatched eggs. It is a difficult business, and I was a small operation. I had some birds survive the winter and even had a few nest on their own. Hawks and owls are the biggest problem, but that was the case "years ago". What I learned about pheasants is that if there is food and cover they live. Farmers plow in the fall these days. They do a better job of harvesting a corn field. They are removing hedge rows. All of this is good for farming and bad for pheasants and has nothing to do with the GC.

PS I do not hunt over food plots and believe it is not sporting should be illegal.

Shotgunner

[DDZ]

Shotgunner, I do agree that habitat has had an influence in the wild pheasant decline in parts of the state. Where I live the land is farmed by small dairy farmers. The farming practices have not changed, and there is as much cover now if not more than there used to be in this area. There are even corn fields that stand through part of the winter.
 I'm not claiming to be any expert on this subject, but I go by what I see, and I look at things through the eye of common sense.  I do not believe all propaganda the GC puts out. Do you really think if the GC did have a hand in eliminating the wild pheasants with their stocking program, that they would come out and admit it? "Sorry Pa hunters we screwed up by introducing pen raised birds with wild birds. This has reduced the survivability of the wild birds" It would be in their best interest to blame other things on the wild pheasant decline. Habitat, owls, fox, hawks, cats, etc.. As I said there are parts of the state that habitat reduction has played a role in the wild pheasants ability to survive. In turn there are parts of the state that hold plenty of cover. What I remember is the wild birds disappearing shortly after the GC started their stocking program. That was with, absolutely no change in habit in the area.   

I remember sitting in a high school class room and being able to look out a window that offered a view of a grass field surrounded by houses. Many times you could see wild pheasants walking the edges of the cover. If these birds could survive in this grass field surrounded by houses. Why can't they survive in a grass fields now surrounded by woods, corn fields, and other fields.

Why did the GC decide to stop their idiotic turkey stocking program? Were they afraid the same thing would happen to the turkeys as the pheasants? If pen raised birds are not a detriment to wild birds. Why has the GC made it illegal to place any pen raised birds into the Wild Pheasant Recovery Areas? These are the few selected areas the GC has been trying to reintroduce wild birds. The only reason I can think of is that the pen raised birds would reduce the survivability of the wild birds.     

[shotgunner]

DDZ

If you were to look in NY and other neighboring states you would see the same decline in wild pheasants. The PA GC did not have anything to do with NY. Since the ringed neck pheasant is not native to North America every bird that has ever been here came from birds that were stocked. Exactly how would putting a pen raised pheasant effect a bird that was hatched in the wild? The decline in wild birds is regrettable but I think it is unfair to blame the GC.

People who try to claim that there are no squirrels and rabbits are just not making since, common or otherwise. Rabbit populations are cyclic, and always have been. I remember a few years back when they are low, but have had many wonderful hunts over the last 7 or 8 years. I had a season about 4 years ago when there were no acorns and found a chopped corn field. The field was seperated from the woods by a ditch the beavers had backed up, the only place the squirrels could cross was where the beavers had dropped trees over the water. It was like a shooting gallery. We took all we wanted and found plenty in the same area the next season. I hope that no one claims the coyotes are killing off the squirrels, I have never known a coyote to climb a tree.

I really think it is time for people to quit blaming the GC for everything. It is not the 50s or even the 60s any more. Things change. Cover changes. Hunting is a strenuas sport, which is what makes it worthwhile. Move around, scout a little. Most off all knock on some doors and ask permission, especially for small game it is not difficult to get. Maybe even invest in some land instead of expecting the state to fund it all.

It is the last day of the grouse season and I am going to take my Brittany and go for a very long walk. I might shoot a bird or two, even if I don't I am going to enjoy carrying that 20 gauge side by side and watching the dog work. One way or another I am going to come back hungry and tired and I am going to feel satisfied. I am also going to wish it was not the last day. Then again I can go tomorrow in NY. Shotgunner

[DDZ]

 Ny stocks pheasants through the Dept. of Environmental Conservation. Could this have something to do with the decline of wild birds?

Birds that were introduced into North America came from transporting wild birds that had survival skills. Not pen raised birds that had the survival instincts of a chicken.

You ask how can introducing pen raised birds into a wild flock effect wild birds. How about something called Genetic dilution? With the minimal survival skills of pen raised birds. I suppose a few make it to spring for mating, thus diminishing the wildness in the flock. Mate a chicken with a pheasant see what you get. I'm sure the GC has in the past released pen raised birds in the spring in hopes of increasing the wild flock. Stocking pen raised birds into a wild flock is the worst possible way to increase the over all numbers of a wild flock. Its a fact that a large percentage of pen raised birds don't make it past 7 days after being released into the wild. Mostly due to predation. Because they plain don't have any survival skills for the wild. Also releasing hundreds of birds into an area, predators may start keying on pheasants. This may result in wild birds incurring higher loses due to predators.
Last, there is the potential of disease transmission from pen raised birds to the wild flock. I'm sure this has happened also.

 If you had deer that for generations had been raised in a pen with shelter, and food. Then released them into the wild and they breed with wild deer. Say this went on for year after year. What do you think would happen to the herd. Would you have a herd that could elude predators, or survive a harsh winter or would you have a herd that would slowly perish, because they didn't have instincts to survive in the wild? 

Yes rabbit populations do cycle, but they have never even come close to returning to the numbers there once was. If they did, I think you would see a small game hunter afield once in awhile. Hunting small game in this area anymore has been reduced to just taking your gun for a walk. I agree hunting isn't about killing something, but its also nice to see game that you are hunting. If you can beat the brush for hours and not see a rabbit why buy a license to do this? Just go for a walk without your shotgun. 

[Dakota30.06]

Shotgunner

I have to agree with you on the fact that rabbit and squirrel populations are cyclic. At our camp 4 years ago we had a tremendous squirrel season...my dad and I both killed our limit virtually every time we went out...which was only 4 or 5 times....we had never seen a squrriel "herd" that size where we hunt. Usually we'd shoot 3 or 4 per season...let alone in one day!!

I've heard somewhere before that there is an actual "squirrel herd" that migrates from year to year...it kind of made sense to me...is there any truth to this?? It explained the population explosion we had a few years back.

[Alias DW]

When was the last time you saw a quail ? none in Huntingdon county for 25-30 years that I have heard of.We have virtualy no rabbits,and deer hunting is a joke.We have an ungodly amount of hawks and also eagles and when the fishers and martins and etc.the PGC has reintroduced along with our coyotes and bobcats, stray cats and dogs all get a snack we cant expect much small game to be left. Havent saw a phesant in years either. What do I think of the PGC? Do'nt even ask.      Alias

[shotgunner]

The problem with this conversation is assumptions. Someone sees that there are no pheasants and they assume that it was disease or some other factor to do with stocking. I write that I see game and someone assumes that I hunt only on private land and do not ever hunt anywhere else. Nothing could be further from the truth. None of this is base on facts. Do you have a diseased pheasant, or have you even seen one and had it tested? It reminds me of when lead shot was banned because it was killing ducks, but all they had was a dead eagle that ate a rifle bullet. If most all of the stocked pheasants die in the first few days how do the effect the wild birds? If there are stocked birds for the hunters to shoot at, and for the owls to eat does this not keep those hunters away from the wild birds? Some of you have an agenda here, and you make statements on what you want to believe. Show me some proof. Lets talk about facts. Shotgunner

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

   Shotgunner, are you on the PGC pay role??  One problem I can identify as serious is stray/tame cats roaming the country in addition to hawks, owls, coons, etc..When we first began hunting these samll game killers were kept in check now the roam free and protected...I have several articles on cats and the destruction they do...the habitate in the area I hunt is perfect for grouse and  cottontails, yet they are ab sent... Something is wrong with this picture..before my dad sold his small farm I would spend mths. there each year...the one constant predatory animal I saw ev ery time I was afield or driving in the night was cats...they are everywhere in that country..strays or tame cats some jerk lets run at night I could count on seeing between5 and 10 in a drive from my pals house home..maybe 10 miles...I don't want this turned into a cat hate discussion, but the habitate is there for small game, it is just not there and for some reason...So you talk about taking a kid hunting for what???Kids need some action..the small game is not there..As for squirrels, they do travel, my country was never great squirrel country but there were always some. now I seldom see a gray..When I travel to northern pa. to see the elk, I did see squirrels, but they were either in or very near small towns, same when I trav eledto se, pa. there were some squirrel, but near small towns...Articles have appeared in the Pitts. paper about the decline of small game in pa..Now Is this the Pa. Game comm. or the Pa. Deer Comm...They have definately screwed up the deer hunting as far as numbers. anyone can see that..to me the insurance companies pressured this move...but the Game Comm. is also responsible for other animals also...When was the last time you saw a game comm. person inthe field..I have see one!!!!!!!!!!!!!He was from the southwest regional office and hunting on game lands and traveling in a state vehicle...when I tried to visit with him, he was one of the biggests jerks I have ever met in the outdoors..I make it a POINT to visit with  all game officals I can when I am hunting...Most are v ery helpful, not this clown...Pa. has problems...I am sorry they are there, but denying they exist will not make the go away...when we waken upand make the game comm. responsible maybe pa. canrecovover to some degree..

[shotgunner]

Am I on the GC payroll? Another assumption. I do not work for the PAGC, I do not even work in PA. Again I would like to hear some facts. People say that there is no small game in the state of PA, but I see it there. Then they say it is because I am on private property. Has the state come up with trained predators that only hunt on state lands? I have not heard any points that are based on facts, only speculation and  assumption. Could it be there are factors in play that are beyond the GC? Could weather, lumber, farming practices etc. be effecting the game animals? The antler restrictions have led to many more big bucks in Tioga county. Are there less deer? Yes, this is what Gary Alt was saying was necessary to have healthy deer. Are these big bucks as easy to hunt, or even see as 18 month old forkhorns, no they are not. Again, if you want to comment please share something factual. shotgunner

[Dakota30.06]

Here is a fact...it took my 15 year old brother 3 seasons of rifle hunting before he got to shoot a doe OR get a shot at a squirrel!!!! No wonder he wants to stay home and play video games.

Here is another fact...the butcher at the store I work at cuts up deer on the side...usually he stops taking deer after the first 100. He usually has this number of deer on the first day. This season he had only 45 deer brought to him the entire first week. I got similair stories from 2 other places that cut up deer. One in 2D and one in 2F.

I hunt because I enjoy being in the woods...but how do you expect a 15 year old to stay interested when they go 3 years without getting a shot at a deer??