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Offline 84Jim

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2010, 07:59:58 AM »
I agree with alot of what is being said.  The PGC is a beuracracy,   But should we blame all of our problems on them?  I don't think so...

Deer - The old timers talk about deer hunting in the southwest in the 60's.  That is when everybody went up to the "mountains" where there were plenty of deer due to the timbering industry that thrived at that time.  Deer were few and far between here.  Then there was a population explosion in the 70's, probably due mostly to the abandonment of most family farms.  I live and do most of my hunting in such an area.  What were once briar thickets are now fairly open woods.  We still have a decent amount of deer, definately more big bucks than before.  I saw enough small forkhorns and 6-points that I could shoot a small buck practically every year.  Sorry guys, I'd rather hold out for a big buck once every 5 years than a spike every year.  But that's just me.  Plenty of doe's with a liberal season (at least around here) if you want meat.

Now it seems that the situation has reversed, the mountains have very few deer, but some pretty nice bucks based on what I've seen during bear season.  IMO, there is little for deer to eat in the mountains except acorns and laurel.  I don't think laurel is good food, and the acorns only last for a couple of months.  So stub out your cigarettes and go out and find them.  Hint, you might have to get out of sight of your truck and hunt hard.

Small game - When I started hunting here in the early 80's, there were more rabbits and pheasants, even a few grouse, but no turkeys.  There were also many overgrown fields and the few remaining farmers grew corn.  Now there are ton's of turkey, no pheasants or grouse, a few bunnies (me and one of my boys went out for a few hours last week and did get a shot at one!).  Probably more squirrels now too.  But no corn and few overgrown fields.  If you believe this thread, the PGC came in and killed all the pheasants, grouse and rabbits, while the NWTF came in and saved the turkeys?  I do believe that the stocked pheasants probably introduced some disease, but the same hunters who are bitching now demanded the stocking when it was done.

So I agree with shotgunner, lets hear some facts.  How many deer do you recommend per square mile?  Please don't say no doe hunting.  I think its a wildlife management fact that you have to balance the deer numbers with the available habitat.  Probably it should have been done better 40 years ago, but once again the hunters resisted doe hunting and deer management in general back then.  What type of habitat improvements on state land will improve conditions on the private land where you hunt many miles away?    



Edited by manofthe45:  whether you write the whole word or shorten it to avoid the word filter it will not be tolerated.  PERIOD.  Another attempt will have me turning it over to upper adminastration and you being asked to refrain from posting in this pa forum

Offline DDZ

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2010, 08:02:02 AM »
Geeez, Shotgunner maybe open your mind a bit. I agreed with you that habitat had a play in the demise of wild pheasants, but anything I have to say about the GC having a hand in it you don't want to even consider it. Since you seem to think the almighty PGC can do nothing wrong. Do you think that is why you were asked if you work for them?  I thought the same thing, I just hadn't asked you. If the PGC did do something wrong do you think the ever, all powerful, bureaucratic PGC would admit to it? What do you think happens when a government, or in this case the GC becomes larger than it needs to be. For one it keeps needing more and more funds to support itself. It becomes inefficient, It hires or appoints people in positions that don't have a clue what they are doing. Like someone that has no experience, but they read a book sometime about how to manage deer herds. After all this the best interests of the people they are supposed to be working for are not their priority any more.

First off, you never did answer my question of why do you think some people with brains got the GC to stop the Turkey stocking program. Could it be because the only answer is, that it might decimate the wild flock? Also you didn't answer my question as to why the GC has made it illegal to place any pen raised pheasants in the recovery areas they are trying to introduce wild birds again. Could it be because the answer is that it might decimate the wild flock they are trying to implant?

I listed three factors that could, without a doubt affect the wild bird population. You either didn't read them all or just closed your mind to it, because you just don't want to believe it. For one, diseased birds could have been stocked and the GC didn't even know they had a disease. If a wild birds did get a disease from pen raised birds do you think you would see the diseased bird, or do you think a predator would pick it off before it finally collapsed? The fact is (not an assumption) that disease was a very likely probability. What happens when a wild animal or bird species become over populated in an area. Guess what they get disease and die. Do ya think its a possibility that birds in a overcrowded pen could get disease?

The GC has released birds (hens) in the spring in hopes of increasing the wild bird flock. This is not an assumption, I remember when they did it. It is a proven fact that releasing pen raised birds into a wild flock is the worst possible way to try and increase wild birds. As I said in my other post when stupid birds (pen raised) mate with a wild bird you get a bird that does not have as good of instincts to survive. Add this up over a number of years and see what you get. Its kind of what we have no wild birds. Like I said, mate a wild pheasant with a chicken and see what you get. Are you looking at a pen raised bird as having the same survivability as a wild bird? Its a fact, not an assumption that a large percentage of pen raised birds do not survive past the first seven days of release. There have been studies done on this. some do make it longer.

Do ya think that if a large number of  dumb birds were released in one area that it might draw more predators to that area? It sure would be easy pickens for the predators. I know if I was a predator I'd travel for miles for that feast. After all the dumb birds were eaten do ya think that the over populated predators in that area might end up picking off the wild birds eventually?   Like I said open your mind a bit and just don't conclude that the GC does everything right.  

I believe you that there are larger bucks in Tioga county because of antler restrictions. In Westmoreland county there is open farmland and small wood lots. Not big woods. I have hunted the same land here for 40 years and since the antler restrictions I have never seen so many little inferior gene bucks. It used to be a rare occurrence here to see a spike. Now I have seen some of the most pathetic bucks I have ever seen anywhere. Three or four inch spikes with horns the diameter of a pencil. It gets worse every year also. Used to be a 18 month old buck had at least six points and some had eight. The food has not changed here. We still have hay corn fields and standing oaks. There always used to be a few nice bucks and its no different after the antler restrictions. There has not been one buck taken in this area that I would say "boy, I would get that mounted". Antler restrictions in this area are a bust. It has made the herd inferior instead of better. I hear the same thing from other hunters in this part of westmoreland and I bet its happening in other county's with open farmland and small wood lots.  Everybody doesn't hunt in the big woods.

Do you think that Gary Alt and some of the clowns that make decisions about Pa's deer herd, really know what they are doing for the state as a whole? If they have the hunters best interest in mind why don't they included a questionnaire with every license sold, asking hunters what they think of the antler restrictions and how they are working in their area they hunt. They will never do this because they know what the outcome will be. They have their interests in mind and I'm sure other outside interests in mind. Be damned what the people that buy license's want. They are just going to shove their agenda where the sun doesn't shine.    
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline DDZ

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2010, 08:10:55 AM »
84jim, Since I was the one posting about pheasants and the GC's involvement, I assume part of your post was directed at me.

I never stated anywhere that the GC was at fault for low rabbit, squirrel, and grouse numbers. Also I never once in my life demanded, insisted or wanted the GC to stock birds. Why would I? There were plenty of wild birds at the time.   
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline Alias DW

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2010, 09:01:19 AM »
DDZ has it right. All the facts in the world will not change the minds of people who been indoctrinated by the PGC and are worshipers of Gary Alt mentality.By the way,where is he now? I think he can walk on water and is probably at work bringing back the carrier pigeons as we speak. I have lived on our farm since I was born nearly 60 years ago and I know what I know is facts. I may have been born at night,but it wasn't last night. I guess we need a license increase also so we can grow the bureacracy that is going to get bigger and bigger and then will save our hunting. Looking back,every time they have received an increase the hunting has gotten worse not better. I would like to turn the tables and get some facts from those who think everything is so great now. Good Hunting              Alias       
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Offline Dakota30.06

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2010, 09:30:07 AM »
A buddy of mine is thinking about buying a 89 acre plot of land in ohio as an "investment" (also known as a place to hunt). We went to walk the land last week...we flushed more grouse in an hour than I had flushed in my entire life in Clarion county.

We found some nice sheds, plenty of rubs and saw deer fecies literally every 10 or 15 yards. I'm no deer expert, i dont know the best way to manage a herd...but what I do know is that I plan on hunting there next season. We didnt pass a single corn field, no food plots, didnt find a single acorn actually. So why is this 89 acre plot able to sustain such a large & healthy herd but PA cant??...We were only maybe 30 miles across the border.

I'm not here to claim that Gary Alt is the anti-christ...I'm just tired of not seeing many deer. I dont want to kill something everytime I step in the woods...but it would be nice to have something to keep your interest level up wouldnt it?

Can someone explain to me why PA went to the "WMU" system instead of just doing it by counties?? WMU 2D did not allow any doe to be harvested the first week of rifle season this year...I'm assuming because the deer herd had become to small?? Wouldnt it be easier to manage a herd county by county ? I live in 2F and I also hunt in 2F...however those 2 locations are 45 minutes apart...at my house there is a decent deer population...however at our camp..forget about it. It just doesnt make sense to me.

Offline 84Jim

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2010, 10:10:10 AM »
DDZ - don't take it personal :D  I just get frustrated when people try to blame all our problems on the government when, at least as I see it, the habitat is, and has been changing.  But we want the wildlife population to stay the same.  I can't see how that can be possible.

Here's some facts.  I used to hunt deer in Jefferson County from 1964 to 1980.  50 deer on every opening day.  I shot enough spikes and tiny 3 points that I got sick of it.  Started to hunt in Greene County in 1981.  Got my first 8 point that year, and several more in the following years.  By the time my oldest son started to hunt in 1998, the herd had become full of spikes and small 4 points.  All of this was before antler restrictions.  I started hunting in Washington county in 2001, and shot the two biggest deer of my hunting career in 2005 and 2006.  Talking to other hunters who I respect the consenus is fewer doe but bigger bucks in this part of the country than before.

The big deer ranches in Texas practice deer management which includes shooting does and letting young bucks walk.  Probably one reason the deer quality is so good there.  Part of the justification for hunting is that the wildlife population needs to be controlled to stay in balance with the food supply.  If we don't, nature will take care of things in it's way.  Could it be thats whats happening here?

As for Ohio, there's always been big bucks shot there.  Your description sounds like PA 20 years ago, when Ohio hunters flocked to PA to hunt because we had more deer and could use rifles.  Maybe nothing will change and your buddies place will be hunting heaven forever.

Offline DDZ

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2010, 01:06:26 PM »
84jim, I wasn't, I just wanted to set the record straight that I wasn't blaming the GC for low rabbit, squirrel and grouse numbers. It would be impossible for them to screw that up unless they started stocking pen raised rabbits, squirrel, and grouse.

I know a guy that has a camp in Elk county, and he has hunted there for many years. He also used to get small spikes and the like. He has said the same thing, that there are way less deer but the bucks are bigger. I do believe this change started to take place before the antler restrictions started. He had shot a six point up there that was 20 inches wide and weighed 200lbs. The year before the restrictions started. It does seem that the restrictions are producing bigger bucks in the big woods.
Although it is kind of hard to get a young hunter interested when all he does is get cold and sees no deer. I think also that many hunters are not really thrilled about getting that above average buck, they just like to see deer, whether they shoot at one or not. There are those also that are just as happy taking a four or six point. I'm sure everyone would like to get that ultimate wall hanger, but really whats the percentage of hunters that get that chance. Not everyone has time or age on their side to walk in a few miles, shoot a big buck and drag it out.     
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Offline Dakota30.06

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2010, 01:19:42 PM »
DDZ you hit the nail on the head. i get just as much thrill drawing my bow back on a small 6 point as I do drawing back on a 30 point...sure I'd love to shoot a monster. Its about hunting...not killing..no one can argue that hunting is alot more fun when you're seeing some game ;D

Offline 84Jim

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2010, 02:19:15 PM »
DDZ,

Yeah, I agree lack of game makes it tough on young hunters.  I have a 20 year old son who has never taken a rabbit.  He seems committed though, and I just talked to him about coming home from college for the last day on Feb. 6.  Another son has never killed a buck.  But all the wishing in the world isn't going to put animals back in the woods.

Hunters have been nomads through out history.  Many of the posters say that huntible game still exists.  Maybe few (no?) pheasants, but more turkey than ever.  Best bear hunting ever.  Plenty of squirrel.  There are grouse if you know where to find them.

Probably we've been spoiled when it comes to deer hunting, lived through the glory days.  You know, my dad started hunting in 1933.  He took 2 bucks until 1965.  Never hunted does, because he thought it was a bad thing to do.  Maybe took 2 turkey in that same time span.  But I never heard him complain.  He just loved hunting.  Of course, you could kill a limit of rabbits practically every day.  Oh well...

Jim 

Offline shotgunner

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #69 on: January 25, 2010, 12:36:04 AM »
Some of these responses fully support my comments.

     I mention Gary Alt and someone calls me a Gary Alt disciple, not true. A post is made saying,  I didn't shoot a deer on opening day fact, and then blames it on the GC. If you are no intelligent enough to recognize that the entire north east had an unusually mild winter and an incredible mast crop, and that these conditions have an effect on the deer hunt, you should not be posting about it. I did not shoot a deer on opening day either. The difference is that I did not expect to. I hunted during the archery season and watched the deer movement go from normal to non-existent. I did not have access to the ground the deer were using, and therefor didn't do much. Next year will be different. I hunt Tioga county and not big woods, but farmland with small woodlots, another assumption that was not accurate. I do not agree with everything the CG has done. I would like to see the early in-line season moved to after the gun season and the archery season moved to include the rut. But I am not going to rant and rave about overthrowing the government because of it.

I would like to see a study on pheasants, and would read it cover to cover if someone can provide it. I am not commenting on turkeys because I do not hunt them much. I did read that most areas that have turkeys now were stocked at one point. Shotgunner
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Offline DDZ

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #70 on: January 25, 2010, 10:21:20 AM »
Yes Shotgunner turkeys were stocked. They were wild birds bought in from other areas. They were not pen raised. If they were, they would not have lasted outside of a pen.  From your comments, it appears to me that you think pen raised birds and wild birds are equal in their ability to survive in the wild.

I remembered the guy that was so instrumental in getting the turkey stocking program stopped. His name is Roger Latham, and here is a link to an article he wrote in 76. Make sure you read the short paragraph about pheasants. The article is in a PDF format so you will have to grab and move the page to the left to read the whole article. The article kind of says what I have been trying to say about the GC stocking program and how harmful it is to wild birds.

Yes thank God for Roger Latham. if it wasn't for him and a few others we would not have any wild turkeys in Pa.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19760606&id=01QdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QVcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6864,1447229
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Offline shotgunner

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #71 on: January 25, 2010, 01:03:14 PM »
DDZ

Once again you make an assumption. I never said that pen raised birds are the same as birds hatched in the wild. In fact I said something about if people and predators were killing pen raised birds, they would not be killing the others. What I know from experience is that pheasants can be raised in a pen, and if properly handled they can be turned out and survive, and reproduce. If you walk into a pen every day and throw them feed they will be tame. If you give them enough space and cover, and you used feed hoppers and automatic waterers and you keep people away from they they grow up quite wild. It is funny that you mentioned chickens. I have never tried it but I was tempted to get a bantam hen to hatch some pheasant chicks, a loose bantam hen. They are about as wild as anything and I think would have raised some pretty smart chicks, at least until they outgrew her. I have a bird mounted, standing on top of the piano. It was my son's first pheasant. The bird was turned out and lived through the winter and the next fall. The boy shot him in at the end of the late season, after several attempts. That bird was as wild as any I have hunted, I did not put him out, someone else did. I am sure that if you looked into it, every bird in north America is a descendant of a stocked bird.

I am not going to make comments about turkeys, as I am not involved in hunting them, but I will read the report. Shotgunner
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Offline shotgunner

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #72 on: January 25, 2010, 01:17:46 PM »
DZZ

I read your article and once again I see people jumping to conclusions. First off, you are comparing Turkeys, a native bird, to pheasants an imported bird. I agree, and everyone ever involved would agree, that wild birds that are moved from one place to another are preferred. Your newspaper man says that turkeys can carry blackhead, but he does not show that any of them did. He makes an unsupported statement that stocking could have contributed to the problem. There is no proof of it, and even he hints that there are other factors at work. There are people writing for local newspapers today who are even more irresponsible then this and who have stirred up a lot of ill will. Just because they get paid to write does not make them knowledgeable, smart or honest. Shotgunner
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Offline shotgunner

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2010, 12:53:04 PM »
Here is a deer we took this season. If someone had shot it as an 18 month old, it would not have ended up a 12 point. It must have been the dominant buck in the area and therefore bred many of the does. I look forward to hunting some of his sons and grandsons in the coming seasons. Antler restrictions are hurting the size of the bucks? Shotgunner
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Offline DDZ

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2010, 03:47:14 PM »
Shotgunner:  Anything anyone says is, in your mind jumping to conclusions and making assumptions, because you have it in your mind that everything you say is correct, and you can't look outside the box. No matter what information you receive. As I've said before you don't want to believe that the GC could have ever done anything wrong.

I disagree with you 100% about your statement that pen raised birds can survive in the wild and become wild. There is no such thing as free food and auto waterers outside a pen. The birds just plain don't have the instincts to survive. There is a guy that lives a stones throw from me that has a considerable size pheasant farm. The birds that get away from the hunters roam around for awhile then they are gone. Not one bird even survives into the winter let alone through the winter. If what you say works don't you think the GC would have made it work by now, and that we would have wild birds roaming around. Yes Turkeys and Pheasants are different and the turkeys were native but they both are birds, and the same things can happen to both by interfering with the wild birds. Mainly by mixing pen raised birds with them.

Roger Latham is not just some newspaper guy, nor does he write for a newspaper. Nor does he get paid to write. He wrote the article to inform the public(hunters) what stupid, idiotic ideas the GC was doing with our wild bird flocks. At the time he wrote it the wild pheasants were about gone and he was warning what would happen to the turkey flock. With his influence he got the turkey stocking stopped. I had mentioned that before. I don't know how you concluded that a newspaper writer had enough influence to stop the ever so powerful GC from doing anything. Of coarse I don't think you have read what I've said in my posts, before your mind starts saying wrong, assumptions, no facts, no proof.
  Roger Latham is probably smarter and more knowledgeable about wild pheasants and turkeys, than anyone that has ever worked for the GC. Here is a bit of his bio.

He has worked as a research ecologist, conservation biologist, and environmental planner 36 years. Since earning his Ph.D. in biology at the University of Pa. he has served as Pa Director of Science and stewardship for The Nature Conservancy. Post- doctoral researcher in biogeochemistry and fire excology in the University of Pa.'s Department of Geology; and assistant Professor in the department of biology at Swarthmore college. Since 2000 he has been a full-time consultant conducting applied research and planning for the National Park Service. The Nature Conservancy, Natural Lands Trust, Western Pa. Conservancy, Audubon, Pa, Department of conservation, and natural Resources, and other organizations and services involved in wild land restoration and management.

 I would say that this guy knows more about what he is talking about than anyone, when it comes to things like stocking pen raised birds and what they can do to a wild flock. I would bet a paycheck on it. The GC listened to what Latham had to say and they followed his advice on halting the turkey stocking program. I’m guessing he had something to say about the pheasant stocking program, and that it fell on deaf ears. I guess you could say that the GC learned the hard way.
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Offline shotgunner

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2010, 12:23:28 AM »
DZZ

In your second paragraph you make another incorrect assumption. I do not think that the game commission has never done anything wrong, and I have said so.

You can say you think that pen raised birds can not live through the winter, but I have hatched pheasants and had them not only live through the winter but breed the following spring. I am only making statements because I know them to be true, not because someone wrote about it, but because I have witnesses it myself.

If you think that farmers are using the same equipment they did in the 50s or 60s to harvest their corn you are foolish. Most farmers plow in the fall these day, turning under what feed they did miss. I own a small farm, have leased it to other farmers and am working it now myself. This is not something I read somewhere. Farming practices have effected the pheasant population. If you can't see that this is a contributing factor you just do not want to. It is regrettable that the pheasants have died off, but it has happened though out the north east, not just in PA. The CG isn't perfect, and they are the easy target when hunters are unhappy. Many of the complaints the hunters have are really due to weather, changes in habitat, farming practices and other factors that the GC has nothing to do with.

We have more geese then at any time in history. Is this because of the GC? No, not at all, but because things change. There are more and better bears then ever in PA, the Gc has had a hand in this but are not solely responsible. Shotgunner
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Offline DDZ

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2010, 11:19:38 AM »
Well Shoutgunner, I have nothing else to say other than you should send your resume to the GC. I'm sure they could use your talents for getting pen raised birds to survive in the wild. Since they have not been able to do it for the last 30 plus years. Also why believe what someone like Roger Latham had to say on the matter, what would he know. 
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline shotgunner

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #77 on: January 27, 2010, 01:13:25 PM »
The best way to learn things in life is by doing them. If you spend all of your time reading what someone else has to say you will never be what you might. I don't need a GC job, I have one. There is a vast difference in birds that are raised in a pen. depending on how they are handled. What you really need to do is think for your self and not draw conclusions without facts. Shotgunner
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"Game butchery is as objectionable as any other form of wanton cruelty or barbarity; but to protest against all hunting is a sign of softness of head not soundness of heart"
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Offline manofthe45

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #78 on: January 27, 2010, 02:12:59 PM »
Deep breath, seperate corners and remember we are all fellow sportsman no matter how opinions differ on the course of the PGC.
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Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2010, 05:59:02 AM »
 >:( one final comment...shotgunner keeps hollering for facts..about two years ago the Pitt. paper did an extensive article on the small game situation in Pa. I wish I had kept the article, but the amount of small game and the amount of hunters for those species has dropped tremedously in the last years...maybe 30... the reason, no small game to hunt..has it not occured to you that you might have a pocket of good hunting?????I have been fortunate to hunt over much of the country and the state of pa. when I first started hunting in the late 50's there were dozens of rabbits and squirrels in our area, some phesants, and many grouse...Now there are only turkey...as far as farming, there is much corn, and other crops planted in that area as before, and much is picked and NOT PLOWED under as you observe in your area...Locally, the woods have been cut over to produce good grouse cover and food, but they are not there..I didn't read this I see it with my own eyes...the game is not there...something is wrong in much of pa..with our small game...I don't know the answer, but I do know the game comm. doesn't care a bit...they can make a bundle with charging for elk app/s that only  a minute number will be handed out...they have a lottery to support their comm. and don't have to worry if there is any game left as long as folks apply for elk permits..you want facts, look at the decline in numbers of small game hunters and the amt. of small game taken each fall...facts your good old game comm. can give you if you choose to believe them..as for me I am forturnate enough to do most of my small game hunting where there is small gamed, in other states.. My concern is Pa. was o nce a fair to good hunting state, it is  slipping away, and with it the hunters that need to be brought into the sport so it will survive. Those I believe are facts, whether you choose to believe them or not...

Offline shotgunner

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2010, 11:41:43 AM »
I do not know how to make it clear enough for any of you to understand. My point has been all along that there are some problems, but they are not only the GC. It was a lousy deer season in PA in NY and most of the north east. It was largely related to the weather, and no one can blame the GC for the weather. I think it is easy to sit back and gripe about the GC, but in order to be correct you must look at a bigger picture. I do not believe that the deer population is as bad as many would have us believe. Yes there are less deer, and this was the goal. There are bigger bucks. These busks are harder to hunt, or even find, but they are out there. I sincerely wish that the resident population of pheasants was like it was in the 50s. It will not happen because of the feed and the cover. Farming practices have changed. Pheasants are not a native bird and will only survive here if there is enough feed and cover. You can not expect the farmers to leave it if they don't have to. Standing corn does very little good to a pheasant, it is after it is cut, and dropped on the ground that it helps. This is not a situation limited to my county or yours, but the whole region. I have walked in a field that has been chopped with a modern combine, there is very little left. One thing I am sure of, complaining about the GC does very little good. There are some things that just can't be changed. There are a lot less hunters. There are a lot less young people doing anything outside. When I went to college we played pick up softball games every day until it was too dark to see. Walk around a campus now and all the kids are inside, playing video games. This is not beacuse there is a shortage of bats and gloves.
The times they are a changing. Shotgunner
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"Game butchery is as objectionable as any other form of wanton cruelty or barbarity; but to protest against all hunting is a sign of softness of head not soundness of heart"
Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Dakota30.06

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2010, 01:43:39 PM »
 :D :D :D kids arnt hunting because there isnt anything to hunt!!!! Not all college kids play video games...i skipped class all the time to go hunting...which looking back probably explained my low GPA ::)

Offline shotgunner

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2010, 12:45:05 AM »
I did not say all. I have two kids in college, they are at Mansfield University, which has a good baseball program. In the 3 years they have been there I have never seen much of anything going on outside. Not a Frisbee not a softball game. You can walk around the campus on a beautiful; spring afternoon and not see anyone outside. There are less kids hunting because half of them are from broken homes, and there is no father to take them. There are less kids hunting because parents don't want to share time with them, they put them on a computer and go off and do their own thing. I shoot in a trap and skeet league where juniors shoot practly for free. The clubs pay for the target and the shooters only pay the prize money, which they win back at the end. My son was the junior high gun most every league, not just because he can shoot, but because he was the only Junior to qualify. There are 200 shooter in a league, and only 3 or 4 juniors. The clubs will not survive, hunting will not survive, if we don't get more kids involved. Shotgunner
NSSA member
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"Game butchery is as objectionable as any other form of wanton cruelty or barbarity; but to protest against all hunting is a sign of softness of head not soundness of heart"
Theodore Roosevelt

Offline dougell

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2010, 12:27:40 PM »
  The only thing that is getting me is that we got hit hard with EHD a year ago. A year ago, on the 200 acres we hunt in Armstrong Co., we found 30 dead deer. All near water with no sign of a entry or exit hole. This past season, the team I hunt with didn't shoot any doe because the herd seems to be down about 75%. The Game Commission didn't talk about it very much and it was a lot more wide spread than they let on. Some areas need to let the herd come back up. Areas like Green, Somerset, Fayette and parts of Armstrong and Indiana counties. This year we only found one deer that looked like an EHD death and it was a small button buck.

Bingo,30 deer in 200 acres would equate to a polulation of over 100 deer per square mile.That's way out of line with what any habitat could sustain for the long term.I would say that ehd was actually a blessing for that piece of land.

Offline dougell

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2010, 12:48:58 PM »
:)While I do not live in Pa. I was born there. I have hunted there off and on for over 50 years. Now, I have not had a satisfactory explanation why Pa. had too many deer. According to Alt, that was the case.(AND THE INSURANCE COMPANIES) When I look around, at the state forest in Northern Pa. and the state game lands, they are being managed to grow timber not game. >:(This is what makes me most angry. Alt sold the Pa. deer herd out to appease the Insurance Industry and the timber industry. Say what you will, but since 1999 I had much free time to visit and hunt in Pa. Before Alt, in the peak of the rut, I could see 10-20 bucks a day. Including some real monsters. Every year I saw bucks. Now, I might see a couple if I am lucky in a week. I am not a bow hunter, these bucks were spotted while glassing and driving though the country. Some days it was absolutely awesome. Pa. always had some huge deer, plus does, plus small bucks. A year or so ago we drove some of the best deer country in central Pa. lots of cover food, and every thing a deer needs. In other years we would see 50-70 deer. That day we saw 4 or 5. This is prime deer country, old strip jobs, cut over country, some farms and fields.We were not hunting just looking before deer season.  Now what is so great about low numbers of deer????? In the northern mts. due to the pratice of not cutting timber on game lands there are no deer or very few. Almost all game benefits of edge type habitat, to me all the game commission is interested in is lining their pockets and doing as little as possible for the hunters in Pa. I have the good fortune to hunt a number of states each season. When I first retired, Pa. was fun to hunt. Deer numbers were not what there was in the 60 and 70's, but still lots deer. Now, it is an exercise in fustration. Sure I get some deer each season, but the guys taking big bucks in the areas I am familiar with are large landowners and their pals. I guess, if it were not that I have close family in Pa. it would be simple to just not hunt there, but it is also sad to see what was once a great state to hunt, has slipped to its current state. I guess what is even more fustrating is most folks are happy with it.  :-*Everyone is intitled to their opinions. So be it. But you will see the day, when only large landowners get deer, and the average guy is out  in the cold. :-[ One of my pals is retired and has a modest farm that he manages as a wildlife farm. He plants food for the deer, turkey, and other wildlife. Since Alt, their deer kill on bucks has dropped to almost zero. My pal only shot 8 points or better before Alt and he got one every couple years, and saw bucks every year. Now, they take a few does. It seems Penna. and West Va. are praticing elimination of their wild life so the game managers can collect their pay for doing nothing. I certainly hope the other states do not follow their lead. As for points restricitons, this is just the opposite of what folks in Europe do. There the older mature bucks or bulls are not taken until they are past their prime. They do the breeding. Culls and post prime animals are taken. Now I would not want us to follow Europe, but we are in certain aspects of hunting. Another thing, here in Wy. several units in the cental part of the state are really loaded with deer. I was there lion hunting several times. I mentioned to my pal about the number of deer and NO nice bucks. He explained the units were managed as 4 point or better units for many years. (The Game Comission Opposed THIS, but went with the wishes of the land owners>) The reason we weren't seeing any nice bucks was for years the scrubs did all the breeding of the does, or most of it. So they are stuck with a lot of sub standard deer and will be for years to come. If you are happy with the current state of Pa. deer hunting, I am pleased for you.  I guess if you did experience the great days of the past, you don't miss them and don't know what you have lost. :'(

I don't even know where to start so I'll just start with the conspiracy theory about the insurance companies.Herd reductions in Pa have absolutely nothing to do with the insurance industry wanting or demanding less deer.Herd reductions are first and foremost about the habitat.No representative from the insurance industry have ever stood up at a PGC meeting and asked for less deer.Dozens of other stakeholders have asked for less deer for many years but noone from the insurance industry has ever asked for less deer.About 7 years ago,the Audubon had a huge seminar on the need to reduce the deer.There were dozens and dozens of sponsors.The insurance industry was absent.Why is this?Let me explain.

I own an insurance agency so I have a pretty good handle on what makes them tick.I don't always agree with everything they do but they aren't involved with deer management in Pa.First of all,insurance companies actually like deer claims.Why you ask?Simple.Deer claims are predictable from year to year.That predictability is what allows them to adjust rates according to the risk.In areas with high deer/autop collisions they simply adjust the rates to make a profit.You and I as consumers get saddled with the cost,not the insurance companies.Furthermore,if you look at your insurance bill,you'll most likely pay more for collision than you do comprehensive(wgich covers deer).Comprehensive covers deer,fire,theft,broken glass,vandalism,flood,falling object etc.You see,deer are a very small part of just that one coverage and that coverage is less than collision.I watch my loss ratio very closely because my bonus at the end of the year is predicated on how much I pay out in claims.I don't even think about deer claims because they're usually small and usually if not always result in only one vehicle being damaged.Multiple vehicle claims where there could be injuries and large liability payouts are what hurts.Deer are a very small,very insignificant piece of the pie.Insurance companies have alot of other more important things to worry about.

I'm not sure why this conspiracy theory continues to perpetuate.The insurance industry was never a driving force behind herd reductions.The driving force is the damage the deer have done to the habitat.The proponents of this side of the debate have been loud and vocal.The northcentral part of Pa had way too many deer for way too long.They single handedly changed the composition of the forest to the point where the habitat couldn't support many deer.Once the habitat got the point where it is in many places,it takes far less deer to continue to impact it.The deer have wiped out many prefered browse species right off the map and unfortunately,many non-prefered species have taken their place damaging the habitat even more and further lowering the carrying capacity.Today,we're unfortunately faced with way less deer than we should be because of our sins from the past.Demanding and carrying too many deer for way too long will haunt us for many more years to come.The good news is,progessive is starting to take place.The habitat is starting to respond and DCNR isn't having to fence as many timber sales as they did just a few years ago.   

Offline Ron 1

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2010, 03:33:18 AM »
if it were me i would buy as many doe tags as legal and wall paper or insalate the huntten house with them.
tags bought and not used might help with time.
                                                           rw
A man with a briefcase can steal millions more than any man with a gun. - Don Henley

Offline dougell

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2010, 03:51:30 AM »
That's what happened for far too long and that's why we're faced with the situation we have today.The answer was to balance the herd with the available habitat.That's been accomplished in most places and the habitat is starting to show positive signs of improvement.Adding more deer to poor habitat that's been overbrowsed for decades is not the answer,

Offline Ron 1

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #87 on: April 23, 2010, 04:16:25 AM »
i do understand that much of there habbitat is now housing complexs and roads the animals (all) need some were to live. i do not live there but here i mich. i have for years bought tags and not used them were i hunt and i do see a lot of deer, big bucks,does and fawns. here we have a open tag and a restricked tag (4 on 1 side) and the smaller bucks have grown. i have turned my attentoin to coon,yotes,ferrel dogs and the rest of unwanted critters. i just do not bring home dinner as often.i have passed on some nice turkeys in hopes to draw in another yote. i do not think just 1 or 2 people can make a over all difference but i do enjoy a good hunt.    rw
A man with a briefcase can steal millions more than any man with a gun. - Don Henley

Offline dougell

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #88 on: April 23, 2010, 04:43:04 AM »
I'm not talking about housing developments taking over deer habitat.The problem is,huge areas of pa had way too many deer for way too long.The deer ate practically everything that was prefered and changed the composition of the forests.As a result,today we're faced with huge overbrowsed areas with nothing in the understory except non prefered browse species that deer won't touch.Deer are browsers and they're picky at that.During the winter,deer need several lbs of browse a day.In huge areas of Pa,there simply isn't enough to sustain more deer without further damage to the habitat.

Offline Ron 1

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Re: Pa deer hunters are crazy
« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2010, 05:01:50 AM »
sorry for the misunderstanding  >:( i thought there was a complaint about not enough deer per square mile.
now i see the whole pic.there is not enough food to go around that is totally different.
maybe some food plots that hold nutrion thru the winter may help.
in my area some of the farmers leave some corn in most of there fields i think to hunt but it also feeds some of them for the colder months. there could be other reason for it like to much rain to get in the field  or the corn prices were down so much it was not worth cutting.
do not get me wrong i shoot does they do not taste much different then a big 10 point buck maybe not as chewy.
                   rw
A man with a briefcase can steal millions more than any man with a gun. - Don Henley