Author Topic: Bye Bye Browning! (Read 5590 times)

Darrell Davis · « **on:** January 24, 2009, 07:08:53 AM »

Sad tale from a one time Browning owner.

It goes like this.

I was changing primary hunting rifles, so picked up a used but very clean Browning A-bolt - stainless synthic - in 300win mag.

WOW, the action was like glass, great until-----------------

I just could never get the rifle to shoot consistant groups in spite of trying a number of different powders and bullets.

It would shoot a nice group but when you tried to repeat it, it would throw some fliers. Hmmmmmmmmm?

One day, probably while cleaning the bore, I took a close look at said bore and Ahah, now I know!

That bore looked like it had been rifled with a pipe tap.

There were deep, DEEP circular, machine marks from one end to the other.

Well during the load development process and before finding the the highly defective barrel, I finally settled on a 165gr Nosler PT as about as good as I was going to get, group wise. Not great, not consistant, just as good as it seemed the rifle would shoot.

I even fired 20 or so fire lapping rounds through the bore which did take the high spots off the machine marks. Considered over a number of seasons the possibility of doing more fire lapping, but feared there would not be enough barrel remaining to stabalize the bullets if I removed all the marks.

This rifle didn't say a lot for quality and/or quality control to allow a product of this very low level to excape from the factory, in fact this bad barrel should have never seen an action, let along a retailers store.

To make a long story even longer, I thought about more fire lapping, talked to gunsmiths about barrel replacement and in general wondered what the best solution would be, as in general I liked the rifle except for--------------.

Well the 2007 season came and with it the straw which broke the hunters back.

I missed a do-able shot with the A-bolt. Not a quick grap shot, but a rested shot.

Now I have missed before, and likely will again, but I NEED to know just where the fault lays when it happens.

If there is any question about equipment, in this case rifle, which clouds the situation, it had better go down the road.

It did, and was replaced with another RUGER, A Hawkeye with a barrel smmoooooooooooooother then a babies butt, a barrel which cleans up in jig time rather then the Loooooooooooooong cleaning sessions required by the Browning barrel, a rifle which shoots consistantly just like the Browning should have.

So ends the tale of "Bye Bye Browning."

Keep em coming!

CDOC

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2009, 09:05:18 AM »

Have you written to Browning? If the damage is such obvious tooling marks, they may just make it right. Nothing ventured nothing gained right? Every once in a while a company does live up to their reputation. A pleasant letter will often times yield results that a screaming fit over the phone won't achieve.

Good Luck

Skunk · « **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2009, 09:11:19 AM »

Quote from: Empty Quiver on January 24, 2009, 09:05:18 AM

Have you written to Browning? If the damage is such obvious tooling marks, they may just make it right. Nothing ventured nothing gained right? Every once in a while a company does live up to their reputation. A pleasant letter will often times yield results that a screaming fit over the phone won't achieve.

Sort of late to do that Quiver since he already got rid of it. He did mention that in his post.

BBF · « **Reply #3 on:** January 24, 2009, 11:23:21 AM »

Did you tell the buyer of the Browning that the barrel was junk or the asking price reflected that? Or did you conveniently forget that?
Just a matter of ethics to me.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #4 on:** January 24, 2009, 02:42:56 PM »

Good point RPzB.

I put it back in the hands of the fellow I got it from and he also got me the new RUGER.

He knew it wasn't shooting good, and why I needed to move it on. He does gun shows, so I expect it went as he got it and don't know what he did or did not say.

He called me when he bought it for me, while at an out of town show, told me it looked good, almost new and that it did.

If as stated on one of the posts, the rifle had been new, it should have gone back to Browning.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

BBF · « **Reply #5 on:** January 25, 2009, 06:43:36 AM »

That was comforting to read.

454Puma · « **Reply #6 on:** January 25, 2009, 07:41:02 AM »

Darrell Davis
Well I guess you learned lesson #1. Look at the bore before you buy! Especially a used firearm!

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2009, 11:55:18 AM »

Yep, check the bore!!!!!!!!

The man that picked it up for me know his guns, but on a rifle which looked this clean and new, probably didn't even think of checking out the bore.

Guess It is one of those things I will need to remember.

To say I was surprised to see this kind of barrel on a Browning is an understatement.

Clearly the quality control folk must have been having a "Monday" or "Friday" type day as the problem could be seen without even doing the light through the bore thing. That bad!

I did think a lot about rebarreling, but the dollars just didn't add up that way.

Don't recall how many times I talked to my gun smith about it, but it was a number of times.

Finally just had him do the paper work on the replacement.

Of course, if I took that tack, it was going to be with a preimum barrel and they don't come cheap.

Guess I could have lived with the groups, but it was the lack of consistancy which broke the hunters back.

Just never knowing for sure isn't something to my liking.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

kiddekop · « **Reply #8 on:** January 26, 2009, 03:19:23 PM »

looking at the bore doesn't always work.A good friend of mine went to a gun show at the Orange Show in SB,Ca many years ago and looked at a pristine Sako in 300mag which he purchased.I told him about a truly expert gunsmith to take it to for bedding.When he got the rifle back it was perfect until he fired about 8 rounds then he couldn't open the bolt.He took it to the gs who checked it out who then test fired it and about 9 rounds it locked up again.He sent it to Douglas to be rebarreled & when it came back it locked up again after 6 rounds,went back to douglas for another barrel,they fired it & it locked up in their shop it wasn't the barrels it was a defective receiver that would tweak when it got to a certain temperature and jam the bolt.Our GS sent off to his sako barreled receiver source and installed it in the bedded stock.My friend took it to the range and fired 3 shots into a .308 group

oldelkhunter · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2009, 07:20:30 AM »

A few months ago I picked up what I thought was a nice Model 70 that was unfired and found out that the bolt handle was not aligned properly. THis is a process of loosening up a weld and replacing the handle. The gun was purchased before the holding company that own Browning and Winchester purchased Winchester. Sent the gun into Browning and in 3 weeks time got the gun back fixed free of charge. Anytime I have had to use browning customer service it has been a pleasant experience and the people on the other hand are very helpful. I have owned quite a few Abolts and all have been shooters and I am sure 100% sure that Browning would have fixed that problem and fast. Why you would come on a forum and complain about a company without pursuing all avenues to fix your problem is beyond my comprehension unless you have some sort of agenda.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2009, 07:07:29 AM »

Oldelkhunter, that was my point, why not give the mfg. a chance to make it right. A stamp is still pretty cheap.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2009, 08:13:12 AM »

With it being a used rifle.... You never know what a previous owner did to a rifle. I can understand your points if this was a rifle you pulled out of the box new and had these problems. Now you said you replaced it with a Ruger. Are you saying you traded this in for someone else to have the same problems that you did?

LONGTOM · « **Reply #12 on:** January 30, 2009, 04:50:21 PM »

He did just what any other person with a car that was going to cost to much to fix would do, he traded it in on a new one.
Does the car dealer fix the problem before he sells it or just pass it on. Who Knows.

I didn't say it was right.

Being used to begin with I can see why he may not have contacted the company.
I don't recall reading if the man he got it from was a licensed dealer or not.
He did state that he "PUT IT BACK IN THE HANDS OF THE FELLOW HE GOT IT FROM AND THAT HE KNEW IT WASN'T SHOOTING GOOD AND WHY HE NEEDED TO MOVE IT".

I really don't see where Darrel did anything wrong.
He didn't sell it to an unsuspecting private person.

I believe most people would have done the same thing.

LONGTOM

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #13 on:** February 01, 2009, 08:33:25 AM »

Longtom,
I was upset that, rather than call Browning, I'm sure they would have made his problem go away, he sold the gun, I read it as back to the shop he got it from to make it someone else's problem and then bashed Browning here.
Do not get me wrong. I'm not a Browning guy like there are Ford or Chevy guys. I own a few Brownings and like them, I have 4X as many Ruger rifles as I do Browning Firearms. But having worked for a manufacturer for some years, there will be items that get past the QC guys. At my Company we always wanted to know what the problems were, get them fixed for the customer, and figure out ways so that another one like it will not give someone else a similar problem.
If he had called Browning and they told him to pound sand, I can under stand his post.
I can under stand his post if he were asking others here if the rough rifleing or tool marks was normal in Browning guns and for possible solutions to his problem with a used rifle.
But to try the gun, see that it did not work and why and then bash a company when he did nothing to let them rectify the problem just seems like he wanted to just moan about Browning.
McWoodduck.

Dee · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2009, 08:47:12 AM »

Darrell I don't know if your problem came from the factory or a careless owner BUT! I decided I wanted a Browning lever action in 308 for deer hunting. I bought one new and while sighting it in, the action turned loose inside locking it up. I returned it to the shop, and it was replaced. About a month later, after sighting the rifle in and carrying it awhile the lever locked half open on the second rifle.
I took this one back to the dealer, he gave me my money back, and shipped ALL his Browning inventory back to Browning for a refund saying that it was not the first time he had had Brownings returned, and was tired of the complaints. He stopped selling Brownings. Used or other wise. I thought it was a great idea.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2009, 01:04:24 PM »

McWoodduck:

I agree with you that he should have gave Browning a chance.
I myself would have at least tried them to see.

I to own a few Brownings and love them.
They are all older A5s and most are Belgum made.
They have never gave a minutes trouble.

As for the company bashing i personally try never to bash anyone for much of anything as I think everyone is entitled to their view.
I don't always agree with them and may state my views but have learned the hard way that an argument really doesn't accomplish much except make enemies.
Have already been down that road here on GBO with a couple of members.

The just of it is I can understand both sides and to a point think that both are right.

LONGTOM

pastorp · « **Reply #16 on:** February 12, 2009, 05:13:22 AM »

Guys I really don't read Darrells post as bashing. He simply tells the story about his experience with 1 A bolt. I think some of you are over-reacting about this.
Years ago, but long after Browning quite selling the safari grade FN mfg. bolt guns, I bought one used in 375H&H. To shorten the story the bore was oversized by ,004 (.379) I could not get it to shoot jacketed bullets. Since I did not need a cast bullet 375 H&H, and did not want to re-barrel I sold it or traded it off. Don't remember which. I still have several Browning rifles. Is it bashing Browning to say they let a bad barrel get by their QC. I don't think so. No company is perfect.

Country Boy · « **Reply #17 on:** February 24, 2009, 06:23:32 AM »

I had a blr like that ,took it to Browning, the bore was oveersize. Guy gave me a new gun ! My A-bolt .243 is unbeatable and my new Hawkeye is a piece of junk. Traded for a Browning.

saltydog · « **Reply #18 on:** March 01, 2009, 11:32:04 AM »

The title to his post should have been - "Buyer check the bore" not bye bye B - yes to me this is an inflamatory post negative towards Browning. After we hear the rest of the story (bye bye Paul we will miss you) it turns out that it may be or not be Brownings problem as the rifle is used. That said . I would bet him $20 that Browning would have worked with him to fix the problem. I have worked with them on issues and they are in general reasonable - not stupid but reasonable. So for $20 in shipping he could have probably got a free or low cost new barrel.

Dennyboy17 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 28, 2009, 08:17:41 AM »

Sorry to hear of your bad experience with Browning. I’m a former farmboy (who had to fix lots of other people’s mistakes), product development engineer, marketing product manager, and national sales manager for several industrial equipment companies that are known worldwide (American and Japanese). I can tell you that every manufacturer, no matter what the product, has problems from time to time. In an ideal world it wouldn’t happen, but it does. What will distinguish one company from the next is how they handle those problems. If you don’t give the manufacturer a chance to make things right, you are not being fair to them. They don’t get the feedback that they need to improve the situation. I have literally gone to a dump and searched for hours to find old failed parts so that the engineering and service teams could analyze the failures and fix the underlying problems.

So, give them a chance. If they make it right, you both have a victory. You’ll be one of their best salesmen, and they will have fixed the problem for much less than it costs to deny it. If the manufacturer adds insult to injury by telling you that you caused the issue (and you are confident that you didn’t), then let them have it with both barrels. Nothing helps to clear the mind of a less-than-scrupulous operator than a little daylight on their activities. Lastly, make sure that you are dealing with the manufacturer and not some intermediary. I’ve had more than one dealer / distributor give me the runaround about problems that the manufacturer later corrected. However, in more than one instance, it took a lot of hammering to get to the manufacturer’s employee.

Keep ‘em in the X-ring.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** May 28, 2009, 08:28:05 AM »

This subject explains the condition America is in we no longer look out for each other ( at least some ) . A few saved dollars means more than integrety and hornor .

Swampman · « **Reply #21 on:** May 28, 2009, 03:13:46 PM »

From a Browning to a Ruger???Has Remington stopped making rifles?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #22 on:** May 29, 2009, 02:21:37 AM »

Swampman , No but the quality thing is hurting them . To me it appears Remington is following Winchester . They can't keep up . They are trying to import , buy other companies and cheapen up product in an effort to compete . Maybe the AR thing will bail them out . The 870 has import competition in the form of a clone . They do have some good bolt guns but the cost is high compared to competition .
Remington has expanded to the point that they can't control cost .

S.S. · « **Reply #23 on:** May 29, 2009, 11:05:28 AM »

Winchester was bad management, not bad product!
I would put a model 70 up against any Browning ever made.
And speaking of imports, are Brownings not made in Japan now?

dukkillr · « **Reply #24 on:** May 29, 2009, 11:31:38 AM »

Quote from: S.S. on May 29, 2009, 11:05:28 AM

Winchester was bad management, not bad product!
I would put a model 70 up against any Browning ever made.
And speaking of imports, are Brownings not made in Japan now?

Winchester hasn't made a quality pump shotgun since the Model 12.

Swampman · « **Reply #25 on:** May 29, 2009, 01:57:15 PM »

The current FN Winchester is very accurate. I can't say that for the real Winchester Model 70s.

mrussel · « **Reply #26 on:** June 14, 2010, 09:27:46 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on February 01, 2009, 08:33:25 AM

Longtom,
I was upset that, rather than call Browning, I'm sure they would have made his problem go away, he sold the gun, I read it as back to the shop he got it from to make it someone else's problem and then bashed Browning here.
Do not get me wrong. I'm not a Browning guy like there are Ford or Chevy guys. I own a few Brownings and like them, I have 4X as many Ruger rifles as I do Browning Firearms. But having worked for a manufacturer for some years, there will be items that get past the QC guys. At my Company we always wanted to know what the problems were, get them fixed for the customer, and figure out ways so that another one like it will not give someone else a similar problem.
If he had called Browning and they told him to pound sand, I can under stand his post.
I can under stand his post if he were asking others here if the rough rifleing or tool marks was normal in Browning guns and for possible solutions to his problem with a used rifle.
But to try the gun, see that it did not work and why and then bash a company when he did nothing to let them rectify the problem just seems like he wanted to just moan about Browning.
McWoodduck.

I don't see that he did anything wrong,but I don't see that he can really blame Browning either. I'm not a 'Browning guy" either,although Ive always wanted an A5,and had a Hi Power (which is really an FN I guess) which Im very sorry I got rid of.(especially since I paid 400 for it brand new about 12 years ago and now they go for nearly a grand!) I agree,he should have called them and seen what they had to say. The thing is,nowadays,people EXPECT companies to have bad customer service because so many do. I find myself doing that was well. I bought a cheap RIA 1911 and expected to get nothing but grief when I had a problem with the magazine,and had to be talked into calling them to fix it (which they did,with no argument,they actually have great service,all the more surprising for a company that sells low cost guns) Ive seen other people have to be talked into calling gun manufacturers to get problems fixed,even with the big name companies. My experience seems to be however that gun companies,at least some of them,actually still have decent service and dont try to weasle out their obligations.

If you want example of bad service,I had a Samsung cell phone.I sent it in and they told me there was a cracked chip,and that I must have dropped it,and on top of that sent it back to me in pieces After much arguing sent it back and they replaced the plastics that they broke,but refused to fix the problem because the chip was cracked. I told them to send it to another tech. They sent it to the SAME tech,who said the chip was cracked,and even told me which one. When I got it back,I took it apart,and examined it under the microscope at work,there was a small blob of what was obviously adhesive,but no crack. I called them up and explained this to them and they had the nerve to tell me that opening the phone voided the warranty so they would not fix it.

All I needed them to do is to re-flash the firmware (sprint told me that I had to have Samsung do it GRRRR). I finally ended up finding the software to do it myself on bit torrent and copying the software from my friends phone which was identical except it had a newer revision of the firmware,which fixed the problem 100%. Now THAT is an example of bad customer service.

mrussel · « **Reply #27 on:** June 14, 2010, 09:34:08 PM »

Quote from: Dennyboy17 on May 28, 2009, 08:17:41 AM

If the manufacturer adds insult to injury by telling you that you caused the issue (and you are confident that you didn’t), then let them have it with both barrels.

Of course,if they MADE both those barrels to the same specs as the one hes complaining about,they might not be to worried.

Not bashing Browning there,but I couldn't resist.

Happy · « **Reply #28 on:** June 16, 2010, 10:02:15 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on May 28, 2009, 03:13:46 PM

From a Browning to a Ruger???Has Remington stopped making rifles?

That is what a few guys are telling me that bought remingtons - the past few years At least with the older remingtons you had a very good rifle after you did something with the triggers .Swampman you set your self up for that one.

As far as Browning goes , I had a liteweight BLR in 358 W that spent two of the three years I owned it, in the repair shop . It was bought new and was sent back and forth three times .I did sell it after browning sorted things out the third time . Browning was good in the sence they never questioned why it was back , jut repaired and sent it back at no cost to me .
Well From Marlin I was told that my guide was with in Spec when I claimed it was more of a 460 / 70 than a 45/70 so that was the last new Marlin I bought .

But I did buy a new browning A bolt about a month ago!! I know the company will try to solve an issue that could come up. That my friend still means something in this world.

john keyes · « **Reply #29 on:** June 16, 2010, 07:27:59 PM »

all I can add to this is:

UNaccurate rifles can be pretty damn interesting too.