Author Topic: Which caliber for big, slow bullet? (Read 3049 times)

TopperT · « **Reply #30 on:** January 26, 2009, 02:06:10 PM »

Let me see.............ok

Forty Five Seventy

45-70.gov · « **Reply #31 on:** January 26, 2009, 02:52:18 PM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob on January 26, 2009, 11:06:07 AM

DD ....... For plinking I like plain base cast 300gr bullets in the .45-70 mosying along at about 950 or 1000 FPS just plain ole fun to shoot.

won't a 44 0r 45 do that with less and more consistent powder ignition and cheaper bullets
just loose the option of ''wild'' just always ''mild''

BowHunter252 · « **Reply #32 on:** January 26, 2009, 05:03:48 PM »

Well after doing some research I found another caliber I might consider. It is called a 45-70. Anyone have any experience with it? I think its kind of old so not sure if anyone still shoots it.

Westbound · « **Reply #33 on:** January 27, 2009, 01:54:55 AM »

Quote from: BowHunter252 on January 26, 2009, 05:03:48 PM

Well after doing some research I found another caliber I might consider. It is called a 45-70. Anyone have any experience with it? I think its kind of old so not sure if anyone still shoots it.

you are going to fit right in here in this forum

It's safe to say that if you do go with the 45-70 that there will be many that can help with any problems you might have with the rifle, cartridge or the loads.

there's just something fun about hearing the muzzle report, then hearing the bullet hit the paper. it sounds like someone hitting a phonebook with a claw hammer

a word of warning though... if you get a 45-70 for paper punching and general plinking, you will probably develop the urge to take it hunting!!!

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #34 on:** January 27, 2009, 02:59:20 AM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on January 26, 2009, 02:52:18 PM

Quote from: Badnews Bob on January 26, 2009, 11:06:07 AM
DD ....... For plinking I like plain base cast 300gr bullets in the .45-70 mosying along at about 950 or 1000 FPS just plain ole fun to shoot.

won't a 44 0r 45 do that with less and more consistent powder ignition and cheaper bullets
just loose the option of ''wild'' just always ''mild''

Nope, I mean they will do it to but the ole 45 Gov dose it just fine I have never had a problem with powder lighting off nor for that matter any problems with mine. They cost the same but a .45-70 can be loaded so many diffrent ways over the others, IMo you come out ahead in all catagories.

petemi · « **Reply #35 on:** January 27, 2009, 04:11:45 AM »

O.K. CW and DP, here goes the third post: .45-70 IT IS A RELIGION, AND I'M ONE OF THE FAITHFUL

PETE

45-70.gov · « **Reply #36 on:** January 27, 2009, 05:25:58 AM »

if you just want big lead get the 500
but your soul will burn in hell

the discussion is over
get the 45-70

Quote from: petemi on January 27, 2009, 04:11:45 AM

O.K. CW and DP, here goes the third post: .45-70 IT IS A RELIGION, AND I'M ONE OF THE FAITHFUL

PETE

2nd biggest
but the best

BowHunter252 · « **Reply #37 on:** January 27, 2009, 06:00:39 AM »

Do the current 45-70 barrels from H&R come drilled and tapped for a scope base? I just called and the lady said the 32" did and the 22" did NOT come drilled and tapped.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #38 on:** January 27, 2009, 06:11:50 AM »

Quote from: BowHunter252 on January 27, 2009, 06:00:39 AM

Do the current 45-70 barrels from H&R come drilled and tapped for a scope base? I just called and the lady said the 32" did and the 22" did NOT come drilled and tapped.

I'm unsure why all the misinformation coming out of Remington of late??? Both my BC and 22" handi are tapped. Some of the old BC's did not come tapped, but to the best of my knowledge all available 45-70s, at this time, are drilled and tapped for scope mounts.

CW

45-70.gov · « **Reply #39 on:** January 27, 2009, 06:13:41 AM »

you may even find one scope ready with t-hole or montycarlo stock

i have never seen one un-tapped but they may be out there

quickdtoo · « **Reply #40 on:** January 27, 2009, 10:22:20 AM »

Unless Remington has changed their policy, ALL current and late production H&R rifle barrels are drilled and tapped for a scope rail. Some confusion may be caused there by the BC accessory barrel which does NOT come with sights, it's drilled and tapped for a scope mount and has a dovetail cut for the front sight tho.

Tim

BBF · « **Reply #41 on:** January 27, 2009, 11:42:13 AM »

It was mentioned once above, I will add my nod towards the 444 Marlin as well besides the other often mentioned. Now if you were interested in bolt action rifles, there are two that I can think of.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #42 on:** January 27, 2009, 02:36:40 PM »

Pete, you're not just one of the Faithful, your a Preacherman!

I only hope to be half as respected when I'm half as old as the 45-70.

DP

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #43 on:** January 27, 2009, 03:06:56 PM »

I addition to voting for the 45-70 (as if Pete hadn't got the point accross yet), I would add that the BC 32" barrel in addition to seeming to be more accurate also dampens muzzle rise due to added weight. For what it sounds like the OP is after I think the BC in 45-70 is the choice.

ECV Slick · « **Reply #44 on:** January 27, 2009, 08:53:43 PM »

Quote from: BowHunter252 on January 25, 2009, 04:25:03 PM

So a 525gr bullet at 750 would still be pretty accurate?

The .45-70 will NO DOUBT be the hands-down favorite for the load you are asking about.

I'm going to "insert my opinion" and say I think the .45-70 will be very accurate for your task so long as your loads do not traverse the speed of sound (about 1100 fps). When a bullet drops through the sound barrier, there is said to be an impact on stability.

That said, I’ve had my best results in handloading rounds that stay either above or below 1100 FPS until they reach their target. Now I could be “all wet” on my theory – but I’ve been reloading for a little while and have had excellent results in following this rule. YMMV

Oh yeah - the .45-70 is probably the most fun and EASY caliber to reload for!

Davemuzz · « **Reply #45 on:** January 28, 2009, 02:22:12 AM »

Hey Slick....good to see you over here too!

Dave

BowHunter252 · « **Reply #46 on:** January 28, 2009, 04:09:30 AM »

The 45-70 sounds good to me. Should I send it in and wait 6+ weeks to get it back or just wait on a barrel to show up in the classifieds? The new barrels are just as good/the same as the old ones, right?

coyotejoe · « **Reply #47 on:** January 28, 2009, 04:40:40 AM »

Quote from: BowHunter252 on January 25, 2009, 03:59:32 PM

I've had a .243 Handi rifle for about 8 years and all of a sudden I have a hankerin for a .500 S&W Handi. I would like to cast some BIG bullets for it and shoot them kind of slow. Hopefully, with not too much more recoil than the .243. What would the recoil be like with a 500 - 700 gr bullet at 1000fps or slower?

I have been reading where the .500 might not be very accurate, so would a different caliber be more accurate with a slow, heavy bullet? I was thinking either a .45 LC or .44, I just want it to punch a big hole ;

I would also like to use cast bullets, so any experience with cast bullet accuracy with these calibers would be appreciated.

Thanks

I thought I should re-post your question since it seems people are so enthused about a chance to brag up their 45/70's that they have ignored much of your original question.
Recoil of a 700 grain bullet at 1000 fps will be much greater than your .243. Some people like to say "oh it's just a push, not a kick" but that is bull. Heavy GUNS have a slower recoil velocity than light guns firing the same load. Heavy BULLETS from a light gun just flat out KICK.
As to accuracy, it depends on what you mean. If you mean punching holes in targets with the sight exactly zeroed for the range, heavy lead slugs will do that just fine. If you mean hitting targets at unknown random distances with your first shot, you'll find than 1000 fps means a very steep trajectory. At that speed with a 100 yard zero you will hit more than 3" high at 50 and more than 8" low at 125. To make hits beyond 100 yards on anything smaller than a parked car you have to know the range exactly and be able to dial in the correction or know the proper holdover.
The military recognized that problem with the .58 caliber minie bullets. The trajectory was so severe that even though the rifles may have been reasonably accurate it was largely a matter of luck for the soldier to hit a man at 200 yards. Sergeants were issued a simple little range finder device to tell his men how to set their sights as the enemy advanced. Throughout the blackpowder cartridge era there was an ongoing quest for higher velocity and flatter trajectory with the "express" calibers which gave lighter than normal bullets with haevy powder charges a 200-400 fps advantage over the standard loadings. It wasn't until the advent of smokeless powder that a truly effective 200 yard hunting rifle became available.
To sum it up, if you're accustomed to the light recoil and flat trajectory of the .243 you will be stepping into a wholly different world with a big bore, low velocity rifle. Not to say that won't be fun, but you will find it to be of limited practical use.

gstewart44 · « **Reply #48 on:** January 28, 2009, 06:36:32 AM »

[quote Recoil of a 700 grain bullet at 1000 fps will be much greater than your .243. Some people like to say "oh it's just a push, not a kick" but that is bull....... It wasn't until the advent of smokeless powder that a truly effective 200 yard hunting rifle became available.[/quote]

There are many factors in determining perceived recoil - bullet weight, charge weight, firearm weight, velocity, shape and padding of the stock. I have shot the 45/70 quite a bit with 400-430 grain bullets at 900-1000 fps out of a Handi Rifle, quite comfortably, as my description - a moderate shove. That same Handi Rifle in 500 S&W pushing a 400 gr slug at 1800 fps (Winchester load) is going to feel quite sharp to the shoulder.

As far as a truly effective hunting rifle, The Great Plains were littered with the bison carcasses that hide hunters left while they decimated the herds of buffalo from hundreds of yards away. It was the accuracy and effectiveness of these large bore slow moving black powder rifles that brought the American Buffalo to the edge of extinction.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #49 on:** January 28, 2009, 08:56:38 AM »

i think it was more the indians and the horse that did the most damage

before the white men brought horses to the indians they couldn't keep up with migreting buffalo

the white men and rifles just about finished them off

Davemuzz · « **Reply #50 on:** January 28, 2009, 01:43:44 PM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on January 28, 2009, 08:56:38 AM

i think it was more the indians and the horse that did the most damage
before the white men brought horses to the indians they couldn't keep up with migreting buffalo
the white men and rifles just about finished them off

I think gstewart44 had it right. The white man would kill the Buffalo just for the tounge alone, and let the rest of the animal rot. When the Indian would kill a Buffalo, they would use every part of it....from the skin to the intestines. None of it went to waste.

It was the white man who almost drove the Buffalo from the face of the earth.

Dave

45-70.gov · « **Reply #51 on:** January 28, 2009, 01:50:49 PM »

i base my statement on a tv show i saw last year

i may be wrong but they said the buffalo mostly declined once the indians got horses

then the white men then tried to finish the job

but stiil i ''heard'' the 45-70 was used when 2 bufs lined up
incase they stampede they at;east get 2

what more can a 500 doo to top that

brennemanj83 · « **Reply #52 on:** January 28, 2009, 02:21:31 PM »

I vote

45-70 45-70 45-70

etex · « **Reply #53 on:** January 28, 2009, 03:51:52 PM »

45-70

coyotejoe · « **Reply #54 on:** January 29, 2009, 04:56:30 AM »

Quote from: gstewart44 on January 28, 2009, 06:36:32 AM

As far as a truly effective hunting rifle, The Great Plains were littered with the bison carcasses that hide hunters left while they decimated the herds of buffalo from hundreds of yards away. It was the accuracy and effectiveness of these large bore slow moving black powder rifles that brought the American Buffalo to the edge of extinction.

Hide hunters didn't care how many they wounded nor how long it took them to die, the skinners would just follow the herd and would find the carcases eventually. The professional buffalo hunter is a very poor example to cite to the modern sportsman.
Townsend Whelen wrote "The American Rifle", published in 1920, and he spoke highly of the 45/70 as a hunting rifle. However he also felt the trajectory limited it's effective range, requiring very good range estimation to make sure kills. He considered the 30/40 and 30/06 to me very much better hunting rifles even though the early jacketed bullets were not nearly so reliable as modern bullets have become. He praised the .30 calibers both for the flat trajectory and for the reduced recoil.
Don't get the idea I'm opposed to the 45/70. I own one at present and over the past 40+ years I have owned 9 others as best I recall. But I load my 45/70 only with 300 grain bullets at about 1800 fps because that is the flattest shooting load within acceptable recoil limits and that still kicks a heck of a lot more than any .243 and is still a 150 yard rifle at best.
It seems that some people are so enamored of the 45/70 that they refuse to acknowledge there is a downside but there sure as heck is one.

gstewart44 · « **Reply #55 on:** January 29, 2009, 06:54:05 AM »

CoyoteJoe,

I definately agree that the 300 gr/1800 fps will belt the shoulder more than any load in the 243. I have a HandiRifle in both calibers and love them both.

But when comparing the 300gr/1800fps to a 400gr/950 fps to me there is a world of difference. The former is a rather noticable smack in the shoulder whereas the latter is a slower "push". I can comfortably shoot the heavier/slower round all afternoon. The 300/1800 variety stops me at about one box, otherwise its Advil time.

In my earlier post I was not trying to extol the virtues of hide hunters....in truth I think that period of time is a great dark spot in the history of hunting. I do not agree with waste of any game. However the accuracy of the round and rifle allowed these hunters to do their business from a long way off.

I did observe in my beginning days of BP shooting a bet/match between a "cowboy" with his BPCR 45/70 Sharps(450 gr/975 fps)tang vernier sight and a High Power shooter using his scoped M1A at 300m.

They began the match hitting a 24" steel gong. Both were 10 for 10. they then went to paper to measure grouping size. After 10 more rounds the cowboy had a group, actually a ragged hole measuring 2 7/8 " and the HighPower shooter had a group measuring a hair over 3 ". I don't know if this is good for a High Power match but it looked impressive on paper.

I became a believer in the accuracy potential of the "big and slow" group at that point. That the cowboy could hold his own with a modern rifle lends to his ability to "range" effectively, a skill that is not needed as much these days with modern cartridges/scopes.

I believe the OrigPoster was inquiring about the change from 243 to 500 SW. In my book that would not be "big and slow" but rather "big and fast". Big and Fast will kill a shoulder very quickly.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #56 on:** January 29, 2009, 10:15:57 AM »

But if your going to shoot a 45-70, the best thing you can do is put a Limbsaver recoil pad on your gun. Those gizmo's are the best things to come along since sliced bread. One came "standard" on my Marlin 1895XLR and it is a very nice feature to have. I also installed one on a .308 Savage that I have with a tupperware stock. It really makes a difference on a light gun that has a recoil of a caliber.

MHO

Dave

gstewart44 · « **Reply #57 on:** January 29, 2009, 10:33:26 AM »

I don't have a limbsaver yet but all I hear is good about them. On my shopping list now.....

petemi · « **Reply #58 on:** January 29, 2009, 10:34:07 AM »

"but you will find it of limited practical use." "And it is still 150 yard rifle at best."

That is why the government tested them at a mile during the late 1800s.

Please tell that to the deer in my freezer that I knocked over while trotting at 220 yards. By those standards, he should still be walking the woods. I'm still learning my .45-70, but I'm dead on at 300 yards, and hope to work it up to 500 this Spring. Yes, it shoots a big rainbow, but all you have to do is learn it. Anyone can point a flat shooting rifle and hit a target at 300 yards. It takes a marksman to do it with a .45-70 sighted in for 100.

Suggested reading for the "100 Yard Rifle" believers is Paul A. Mathews book "Forty Years with the .45-70" ISBN:0-935632-84-0.

Pete

cwlongshot · « **Reply #59 on:** January 29, 2009, 10:37:34 AM »

Quote from: Davemuzz on January 29, 2009, 10:15:57 AM

But if your going to shoot a 45-70, the best thing you can do is put a Limbsaver recoil pad on your gun. Those gizmo's are the best things to come along since sliced bread. One came "standard" on my Marlin 1895XLR and it is a very nice feature to have. I also installed one on a .308 Savage that I have with a tupperware stock. It really makes a difference on a light gun that has a recoil of a caliber.

MHO

Dave

EXCELLENT POINT Dave!!!

I have one on EVERY "kicker" I have!!

Here is one I fit to the 500 last year.

Its THE BEST 30 bucks you can spend on more comfortable shooting!

CW