Methane

[Cornbelt]

Any of you guys know something about methane generators?

[briarpatch]

I know they do their best producing in elevators and closed rooms.

[Cornbelt]

No wonder they don't want ya smokin' in the LF8R.

[briarpatch]

I googled them about a week ago and there is a lot of info to digest. No pun intended.
I also looked at wood gas generators and ethanol production. I think that they do have an application for the self sufficent individual.

[bilmac]

Methane is produced in the anaerobic breakdown of organic stuff. Those who are producing it for use most often start with true nasty waste like manure. I saw some stuff they were doing in India on small farm operations. They had an open top tank and put liquid manure in it. Then they covered it with another open tank that was inverted, open side down so it floated in the first tank. As methane was produced it bubbled up inside the inverted tank. The weight of the upside down tank pressurized the gas so they were able to tap the gas from it to run stationary engines or use it for heating.

Real cool. I always wanted to do that, but I don't suppose I can on my lots in town.

[GatCat]

I don't have any direct knowledge on it, but I have read in verious sources that during WW2 in England, it was done quite a bit, by farmers and ranchers, who used the methane gas to fuel their vehicles, since gasoline was strickly rationed. From what I remember reading, it worked ok.
Mark

[Cornbelt]

Well, the raw material shouldn't be a problem. Storage might. I wonder how big a tank one household would need, and if a small air compressor could be used to fill the tank. Might also need to know how many cubic feet per gallon of "soup". I guess I could start with my gas bill for need requirement.

[bilmac]

The tank in a tank idea would need at least two set-ups to give a somewhat steady supply. You would have to shut them down for clean out and recharging on a regular basis.

Methane is just one of the components of natural gas, so the problems associated with using CNG in vehicles applies to methane as well. The big problem is that it takes a big strong tank to hold any significant amount of energy. Propane works better for vehicles because it is liquified and the energy in the tank is a lot more compact.

[S.S.]

not sure how true this is, but any of you heard of swamp gas?
it is raw methane that bubbles up from the rotting "Stuff" under the water.
Well when it touches oxygen "Boom" a nice fireball. I have heard that even the
oxygen in the copper lines that move the methane from point a to point
b has to be removed when making methane. Stinks too.

[bilmac]

There is lots of methane produced in old landfills. Only now are they starting to consider capturing it and using it.

[Dixie Dude]

You can make the type digester used in India as noted above in place of a septic tank.  However, the average family of 4 only produces enough methane (natural gas) to cook with.  For more gas, you have to add cow or chicken or some other type farm animal manure.  To me, the cost smell and maintenance isn't worth it.  You can use solar water heat and have it sized large enough to store enough hot water to heat the home with at night.  Firewood is also easier  to store.  The methane digester takes work every day shoveling in manure to be worth the effort.  Just a few weekends a year should put you in enough firewood for a year.  The animal manure is better used for fertilizer unless you have a dairy farm or cattle feed stall to build a large enough digester to do enough good.  My thoughts on self sufficiency is an underground or semi-underground home with solar and wind for power, solar hot water and firewood for cooking and what little heating or hot water you need to take chills off in cold or cloudy weather. I think a small steam engine for an electrical generator is a good idea also using firewood for the boiler.  Same boiler could also do double duty to heat the home also.    

[bilmac]

You have about the same idea as I do Dixie. I would love to dig a house into a south facing hill with big windows on the south side. The new concrete filled Styrofoam  wall systems are supposed to be super energy efficient. I can't find land that I can afford, and now I'm thinking that the Dems will destroy the country before I get er done.

[Dixie Dude]

I've researched self sustainablilty for over 30 years.  Almost got there one time.  I work in a natural gas utility, so home grown methane sounds good, but humans do not put off enough alone.  However if all the dairy farms and feed stalls in America converted their manure to methane, it could provide all the residential natural gas in America.  This however is only 1/3 of the total use.  Industrial, power plants, and commercial uses the other 2/3rds.  Another reason it isn't done, it is labor intensive, and cost about 2-3 times what it takes just to drill for it in the ground or offshore. 

In the deep south, you don't want a south facing opening to a semi-underground house.  You want an east or northeast.  Why, it is hot in the summers, winters are mild compared to the north, tornadoes run sw to ne. 

I know a guy who build an underground home in Auburn, Alabama.  Opening faced north.  Covered the east, west, and south, with 2' of dirt on top.  North was almost all glass.  He had a wood fireplace on the center of the north wall.  He used concrete prefab bridge spans for the roof.  (He ran a crane company)  Lifted them in place over his walls.  Made the rooms about 12' high, then had a drop ceiling for hidden ductwork, wiring, etc.  He lived one year without heat or air-conditioning.  He said he only needed the fireplace about a week in the winter when it dropped down to about 20 degrees.  He said the inside got up to about 85 degrees in the summer when it was about 102 outside.  He also said the humidity was bad, so he installed a heating and air conditioning system just to condition the air, especially in the summer.  Here in Alabama, 3' below ground level the temperature is a constant 60 degrees year round.  In Michigan, it is 5' below ground level.  A south facing opening in Michigan would be better to take advantage of sun. 

I think self sustainability is very possible but you need a combination of things.  Semi underground home, solar heat and water heat, solar panels for some electricity, wind mills for more electricity, a good wood lot for firewood, and a small steam engine using firewood for additional electricity in cloudy days and night time.  Also having a ground water heat pump would help with air conditioning.  Using LED lights would also help with electric bills.  Having a garden, and chickens, would also help.  This would allow for only one family member to work full time for cash.  If you had enough eggs from chickens, you could trade with another homesteader for milk.  You would be surprised and what you really don't need.  Reading instead of watching TV uses less electricity.  Working in the yard or garden, hunting, shooting, fishing, cutting firewood, is healther than sitting around watching tv also.