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Author Topic: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?  (Read 1235 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« on: January 28, 2009, 05:43:40 AM »
Length 33 in., bore 2 3/8 approx., muzzle o.d. 4.5 in., breech dia. 8 in.  The thing was obviously designed with great attention to a percussion firing lock, the end of hammer of which is missiing.  No marks.  The huge sight blade reminds me of the big sights I see on later harpoon cannons, but who knows?  I've had this for nearly 20 years and have never found anything about it.  Images of early harpoon cannons are hard to find.  There's a double-barrel model by Cordes of Bremerhaven in the Ubersee museum in Bremen, Ger., but their site doesn't have photos of it.  I've seen descriptions of an early Foyn ? harpoon cannon and one photo, but can't seem to get a match.  What else could this be?  Please help.











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Offline KABAR2

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2009, 06:37:14 AM »
A Buck Rogers buccaneer cannon? A last resort to take out Ming the merciless?

Joking aside, you come up with some of the oddest artillery I have seen.....

That’s not a bad thing; I like odd ball stuff like the Russian cannon that looks like

it should shoot bricks, whale guns is an area I have never tread, but like

you said the sight looks like some on the latter guns.
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Offline Bob Smith

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2009, 07:07:48 AM »
Not much help but I wonder if you know about this publication: it doesn't seem be getting the attention it deserves: Arthur C Credland Whaling Harpoons and Related Weapons in Hull Maritime Hull Maritime Museum.
Bob Smith
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2009, 07:52:36 AM »
Bob, thanks.  No I hadn't heard of the publication, I doubt many people or libraries for that matter, in the US would have it.  If you run across a copy, do skim the photos for me if you would be so kind, and see if any very strange-looking cannons similar to this one are in the book.
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Offline Bob Smith

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 08:42:01 AM »
Well, it took me sometime, but I did eventually track down a copy of the Credland Whaling weapons book. As far as I can see (and it was quite a difficuklt book, skittering around the subject rather than treating it in a linear fashion) there was a lot of experimental thinking and one-offs in the world of Whaling Guns in the late 18th-ealry 19th century world. There is nothing identical to your cannon but there are similiarlities with other items- the double lock positions, and the sighting. There were surprisingly few actuall swivel harpoon guns, but a couple of drawings- dating from 1770s to 1820s. Some of the guns had flintlock and percussion locks and percussion did not become common until 1837/8 on the harpoon guns. There was a little more information on HG Cordes, who were copying Greener's Harpoon designs in Bremerhaven in the 1850s.
A few general comments on the manufacture of harpoon guns- this seems to have taken place where the whaling fleets were based- in northern England, round Hull and Newcastle or Scotland.  Other countries with whaling fleets and the manufacturing potential are Norway andthe Netherlands (when they governed Liege between 1815-1830) and north America.
Book also mentions but does not illustrate lifeline guns.
Sorry not o bring more definite info

Bob Smith
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 08:48:18 AM »
Bob, thanks very much for looking into this.  You are unquestionably the Scholar Emeritus of this discussion board! 

BTW did you happen to find anything on the Cortes Gun-as I recall you did some work on that once, a paper or something?
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 11:35:23 AM »
the fornt 'sight' holds the coiled rope ?
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Offline BoomLover

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 02:46:47 PM »
I'm for sure no "expert", but the first thing I thought of was an early line-throwing cannon...blade sight for better accuracy, don't want to over or undershoot your mark. Just a guess! BoomLover
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Offline carronader

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 10:38:49 PM »
So many little local museums in UK have stuff on whaling,Hull was huge fishing port with large whaling fleet,you could try e-mailing photo direct,could hit paydirt.The pdf I've attached has a reference to a swivel gun at the end of it,could be on the right track,I'll have a sniff around local sites when I have more time.
 The squirrel basher is showing an interest in Carronades and I don't want him escaping so gonna have to sort out some stuff for him.It's good to get people interested in your own favourite area.
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Offline carronader

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2009, 05:49:50 AM »
even my hometown museum had this one   poor light conditions  and no flash allowed  rules rules rules 
  NO it's not me.
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2009, 06:08:56 AM »
That looks more like a punt gun than a cannon.
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Offline carronader

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2009, 06:24:37 AM »
just showing how many types and age etc. of harpoon guns are out there..........also that one has raised rib sight   another clue that the little cannon could well be a whaling gun...........shortest punt gun I've ever seen.   never seen one that fired harpoons either.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2009, 07:54:47 AM »
Why would a harpoon cannon have a breeching rope ring that was an integral part of the casting of the barrel?
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2009, 08:31:09 AM »
Quote
breeching rope ring

I would not call it a breeching rope ring as it is too small dia. and it goes thru middle of cascabel.  Breeching rings are almost always above cascabel and are larger dia.  Tranverse holes thru cascabel are, IMO, always for some sort of mechanical attachment, such as elev. screw or maybe in this case, some kinda tiller like a swivel gun.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2009, 08:58:31 AM »
Quote from: cannonmn on July 28, 2009, 08:31:09 AM
Quote
breeching rope ring

I would not call it a breeching rope ring as it is too small dia. and it goes thru middle of cascabel.  Breeching rings are almost always above cascabel and are larger dia.  Tranverse holes thru cascabel are, IMO, always for some sort of mechanical attachment, such as elev. screw or maybe in this case, some kinda tiller like a swivel gun.


I used the phrase breeching rope ring (it more resembles breeching jaws, but doesn't have a removable pinned piece) because that really isn't a cascabel, but I now see that it isn't all bored through. Was it meant to be that way, or is that a thin flange of iron left from casting? What kind of mechanism do you think was attached to the "cascabel?"
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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Whatzit? Harpoon cannon?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2009, 10:55:05 AM »
I spent a while wrestling with the beast today to make sure it had preponderance, and it does, it is around five lbs. breech-heavy when balanced on trunnions.  There are no marks on the bottom of the cannon.  The thing I call the cascabel could I guess serve as a breeching loop, although on the right side it does have some rough casting spillover or something that keeps that side of the hole from being round, as BoomJ noticed.  I can stick my thumb thru the hole but it is tight.  I thought it was where a bolt went thru to connect something but since the edges of that hole are radiused, maybe it is for a rope, dunno.  I also noticed again how the trunnions are on the low-line, unusual for what is obviously a 19th C. cannon (built-in percussion lock tells me that, post-1838 or so.)

I am still mystified.  It might just be a kind of unique form of swivel gun, with the big blade sight and percussion lock being "selling features" to beat the competition, but it is so different from all the rest...
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