Author Topic: Hodgden confusion on reloading 30-30 (Read 1098 times)

nrb · « **on:** January 30, 2009, 05:09:07 PM »

Recently, I reloaded a batch of 30-30s with 170gr and H414 using data from the Nosler reloading manual. I am working up loads in a new 336 and have a bunch of H414. This load did very well compared to several faster powders and showed no abnormal signs. I wanted to work up other loads so checked the Hodgden on line load data. Interestingly, there were no data for H414 or for H4350 in 30-30!!!!!!!!!!!!! I called Hodgden and a "consultant" said it was DANGEROUS to load H414 in 30-30, without explaining why!!!!!!!!!!! He saw the Nosler loads and criticized them. I was confused to say the least. So, I began searching my reloading files from yesteryear. I found a Hodgden manual from 1991 that gives suggested 30-30 loads using H414 and H4350!!!!!
I have tried to call the Hodgden company back to explain this discrepancy but cannot reach them. Why would H414 be dangerous for the 30-30??? I am not new to reloading and reload for several calibers. This is the first I have heard of the ban on H414 for the 30-30. What information and facts can you provide in this dilemma?

best, nrb

LONGTOM · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2009, 05:39:13 PM »

I myself do not know.
My Hodgden #26 manual from 1992 lists it with 170s and so does my NOSLER #4 manual from 1996.
My new Hodgden doesn't list it nor does my SPEER manual.
I couldn't get to my SIERRA book.
Maybe someone else will know the answer.

LONGTOM

AtlLaw · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2009, 05:58:20 PM »

Load Data lists 6 loads for the 30/30 using 414 and jacketed bullets. Four from Nosler and 2 from Speer. Kinda strange isn't it?

LONGTOM · « **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2009, 06:14:47 PM »

Richard, how old is your Speer book?

LONGTOM

jimkim · « **Reply #4 on:** January 31, 2009, 12:06:26 AM »

These are the sources in Load Data.
.30 WCF / .30-30 Winchester (Speer Data) (

they don't say which manual this came from. It only says Speer Data.
.30 WCF / .30-30 Winchester (Barnes Reloading Manual #3) (2)
.30-30 WCF / .30-30 Winchester (Nosler Reloading Guide 6) (3)

AtlLaw · « **Reply #5 on:** January 31, 2009, 05:17:49 AM »

When I go down to my gun room I'll check the Speer manual I have for any 414 - 30-30 loads there Frank. But JimKim, say hey there Jimmy Kimmie,

quoted the Load Data data.

I'm really curious about this. $:-\$ I've got a can of 414 I was going to try in my 308 & 358. I would've gotten around to the 30-30 eventually...

jimkim · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2009, 05:23:35 AM »

How 'bout it. AtlLaw. Are you printing your own manuals too? Best thirty dollars I ever spent.

BBF · « **Reply #7 on:** January 31, 2009, 10:42:02 AM »

At first glance I would have considered 414 to slow for the 30-30.
The Hodgdon 2004 manual doesn't list it
The Speer# 13 does.
The Hdy# 14 does not.
Lyman No 48 does not.
Sierra No 5 does not

$:-\$

Sweetwater · « **Reply #8 on:** January 31, 2009, 12:47:10 PM »

Knowing what we know about powder, it has to reach a certain pressure to burn correctly. At lower pressures, it becomes erratic as "stuff happens" that is hazzardous to our health. We know that H414 is near the burn rate of IMR4350. I've never gotten good results from powders that slow at 30-30 pressures. Maybe Hodgdon has a new batch that doesn't handle the lower pressured rounds well. Manuals get updated with 'new knowledge', so we should avail ourselves of the 'new knowledge' and keep ourselve out of harms way. A quicker powder is probably in order. I've shot lots of 3031 and 4895(all the varieties).

Regards,
Sweetwater

LONGTOM · « **Reply #9 on:** January 31, 2009, 01:51:35 PM »

To me it's not the fact that H414 may not be suitable now for the 30-30 as stated

Quote

Maybe Hodgdon has a new batch that doesn't handle the lower pressured rounds well. Manuals get updated with 'new knowledge', so we should avail ourselves of the 'new knowledge' and keep ourselves out of harms way.

And I will agree with the above statement.
What really bothers me is the fact that nrb contacted Hodgden and a "consultant" said it was DANGEROUS to load H414 in 30-30, without explaining why!!!!!!!!!!! He should have at least gave some explanation.
Like said it is a slower powder and he could have stated that they have found it to be unstable when used in the 30-30.
At least we would know why it was no longer recommended.

LONGTOM

Sweetwater · « **Reply #10 on:** January 31, 2009, 07:04:18 PM »

Longtom-
I totally agree with you. There should have been some viable explanation.

Regards,
Sweetwater

jimkim · « **Reply #11 on:** January 31, 2009, 10:22:34 PM »

I sent a link to this thread to Hodgdon. Maybe they will give us an answer soon. I use IMR-4350 in my 30-30 handloads and have had good luck with them. It works really good with my 195gr RCBS 30-180-FN's. It might have something to do with the heavy bullet though.

Siskiyou · « **Reply #12 on:** February 01, 2009, 10:17:04 AM »

H-414 and the 30-30

You guys are pushing my buttons because I am getting ready to load some 30-30 ammunition. The primary purposes are to regulate a new scope on my Marlin.336, get some loading time in, and get some pre-season practice under my belt.

I have not had the 30-30 dies out since I did a bunch of loading for it thirty years ago. I got in the habit of going by Wal Mart and looking for the ammunition on sale. I have stocked up on it and my purchases have exceeded my shooting.

I developed a good load using IMR4320 and 150-grain Hornady round nose. I might have a pound of the 4320 on hand then it is buy more, or use another powder that I have on hand. That other powder is H414.

H414 is made by Olin for Hodgdon. Hodgdon claims that it is the same as WW760. In fact duplicate loads in the Hodgdon 25th edition produces duplicate results. When comparing data between the two powders in other publications I have found a difference in data, but that is expect because of difference in testing conditions and equipment.

The point is that next to me I have five generations of Winchester-Western Ball Powder Loading Data next to me. I could pick a few more off the book shelve but that would be over kill. All of these have data for WW760 for the 30-30 Winchester using 150-grain and 170-grain loads.

I also grabbed a couple of the booklets and along with the Hodgdon 25th edition and found data using H414 with 150 and 170-grain bullets in the 30-30 Winchester.

Both sources provide pressure in CUP. I rather doubt Winchester (Olin) and Hodgdon would publish the data over many years if there were a problem with H414 and WW760 in the 30-30 Winchester.

I question the information the original poster received.

Copied from a 1999 Winchester catalog.

110 grains HSP 296 18.7 2155 36,000 C.U.P.
110 grains HSP 748 36.8 2595 33,000 C.U.P.
150 grains SP 748 34.5 2310 36,000 C.U.P.
150 grains SP 760 35.9 2090 30,000 C.U.P.
170 grains SP 748 32.0 2145 36,000 C.U.P.
170 grains SP 760 33.6 1975 30,000 C.U.P.

Did the person at Hodgdon error?

With the current bare cover powder inventory at retailers my next step will be my jug of H414. If somebody finds a posted warning on the Hodgdon website please post the link.

nrb · « **Reply #13 on:** February 01, 2009, 03:34:12 PM »

Thank you Siskiyou, for all the information and background opinions. To answer your questions and to remove your doubts about my "information", I will direct you to the Hodgden web site and all of their load information about 30-30. Among all the loads listed, H414 is NOT included. Rather than wait for someone to post you a warning link, just call Hodgden yourself, listen to what they say and let all of us know.

best, nrb

Lone Star · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2009, 04:02:15 PM »

Just because Winchester published .30-30 data for years with W760 does not mean that data was "good". Just because it gave safe pressures does not mean that those pressures were consistant. The old Olin data was taken with copper crusher equipment, which only gives the estimated maximum pressure. Modern piezometric equipment can tell what happens throughout the entire combustion process. Hodgdon may feel that there was an excessive spread between the high and low pressures or velocities. Powder companies are constantly updating their old data based on better testing. Old data is just that - old - and it may no longer be reliable. Use the old books for historical reference, use current manuals for load data.

.

Siskiyou · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2009, 05:55:53 PM »

nrb: I did check the website, and I agree with you there is no H414 information.

The lack of information does not surprise me. I have been collecting different editions of reloading manual for years. Back in the 1960, and 1970 period data in the different manuals normally used the same powders. As the selection of powders increased loading data for some powders are not published.

I talked to Lyman a few years ago because I had a powder with little published data at the time. The person who helped me advised me that they were working on a new manual, and there would be a process selection process using a pre-set criteria for the powder they would publish data for.

I did go to the Hodgdon, IMR, and Winchester website and did find data for WW760 powder in the 30-30 Winchester. Please note this information copied off the site today shows pressure measure in CUP.

150 GR. SIE FN Winchester 760 .308" 2.550" 35.9 2090 30,000 CUP

170 GR. SIE FP Winchester 760 .308" 2.550" 33.6 1975 30,000 CUP

I do not question that you were told that H414 was not safe. I do question the person who provided the information because it is contrary to long published, pressure tested information. If additional information does not satisfy me the day I get ready to reach for the H414 I will make that phone call. I did go to the links for Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester looking for any warning regarding the use of H414 in the 30-30 Winchester thinking that if there was finding it was dangerous to use that a published warning would be in order. In the past when there has been a safety issue with a lot of powder a warning has been published on the WebPages.

The nice thing about this forum is that we can share information. If information is contrary to data we need to reconfirm the new findings.

While psi is becoming a common format, the cup measurements are still published and manufactures are using both formats. I am including a link to the 2008 Hodgden Manual for you to browse.

nrb: I did check the website, and I agree with you there is no H414 information.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon%20Basic%20Manual.pdf

jimkim · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2009, 01:35:20 AM »

Quote from: Lone Star on February 01, 2009, 04:02:15 PM

Just because Winchester published .30-30 data for years with W760 does not mean that data was "good". Just because it gave safe pressures does not mean that those pressures were consistant. The old Olin data was taken with copper crusher equipment, which only gives the estimated maximum pressure. Modern piezometric equipment can tell what happens throughout the entire combustion process. Hodgdon may feel that there was an excessive spread between the high and low pressures or velocities. Powder companies are constantly updating their old data based on better testing. Old data is just that - old - and it may no longer be reliable. Use the old books for historical reference, use current manuals for load data.

.

This is funny. Last month I asked a tech about the IMR data from Speer number nine. He said, "use it IMR is IMR it hasn't changed". I lost a bet on that one. I thought the data would be obsolete. I didn't ask about Hodgdon powders. Now I wish I had.

nrb · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2009, 01:49:50 AM »

Siskiyou and all, Thanks to all who have helped clarify this problem of H414 in a 30-30. I think the ball is in Hodgden's court and they have a responsibility to give all of us powder users the facts. As Siskiyou says, "The nice thing about this forum is that we can share information. If information is contrary to data we need to reconfirm the new findings."

Best to all, nrb

Gohon · « **Reply #18 on:** February 02, 2009, 04:16:23 AM »

Just got of the phone with Hodgdon and what the technician told me is H414 is not dangerous to use in the 30-30 but they do not recommend it's use. The reason being is H414 is extremely load specific. He went on to say that if Nosler, Speer, and Barnes are publishing data for H414 use in the 30-30 then there should be no problem as long as they are using the same test equipment they are, they being Hodgdon and again one is using only those specifics in the manuals such as primer, cartridge, charge and so on. He confirmed the fact that 760 is the exact same powder and the data was interchangeable. Several times he emphasized that it is because the powder is so load specific is the reason they do not recommend the use of H414, and that any change in components could possible create pressure spikes that most likely won't send gun parts flying but is very hard on the gun..

My conclusion is that Hodgdon has discovered that any change in components in the 30-30 and use of H414 is so dramatic that the use of the powder in the 30-30 is something they would just as soon not recommend to the general public. Appears to just be caution on their part.

Siskiyou · « **Reply #19 on:** February 02, 2009, 07:34:34 AM »

This may not be a new issue with Ball/Spherical powder. In the past Winchester has printed a warning not to reduce the powder weight of some recommend loads in other cartridges.

A nice feature of the 30-30 compared to larger cases is the economy of powder. Out of a pound of my current 30-30 powder I can get approximately 212 loads. (1 pound = 7000 grains ¸ 33-grains = 212) If I was loading a 300 Savage out of the keg I was using nine more grains of powder, and it took a bigger jump with the 30-06. The 30-30 could be the shooters friend in times of tight supply.

I have to admit that I am not loading hunting loads for the 30-30, over the years I have accumulated a fair supply of factory loads from Wal Mart and gun shows. Last fall one of my brothers gave me three boxes of 30-30 ammunition. My goal is to load full power ammunition for pre-season practice, and to get a new scope on paper so that I can do fine adjustments for Hornady LEVERevolution ammunition. I do not think I can match LEVERevolution velocity, and reported accuracy off my reloading bench at this time. With release of the flextip bullet as a reloading component it may happen in the future.

I have purchased two boxes of LEVERevolution ammunition for hunting. Retailers are jerking the price all over the place, so I am looking for a couple boxes at the right price.

Back in the mid 1960’s I worked at a number of hunter check stations. I witness the success of the 30-30 equipped hunter, and I also heard their tale of woe. I believe there were more reloading errors by the youthful reloader, because the 30-30 was their starting firearm. Two or three of them failed to charge a case, which resulted in a misfire. Failing to properly crimp cases was not uncommon. The result was spilled powder, or a bullet pushed back into a case.

The other side of the story never heard of course is from the reloader who did it right, and did not think it was unusual when his reload function proper.

I noticed that one of the old factory loads given to me has a bullet pushed back in the case slightly. I need to take care of that.

The H-414 issue caught my attention because I am about 212 loads from needing to take action for a new 30-30 powder. H-414 was my go-to option because that is what I have on hand. But I do not want to place family members, or myself at risk. The pleasant shooting 30-30 is a good training rifle for family members who I am trying to draw into shooting sports.