Fillers

[AtlLaw]

I confess!  I have NEVER used a filler...    Probably because I've never fooled around with reduced loads.  But now, gathering loads for my 45-120 project, I believe I'll have to use some.  That 3.25 inch case has a LOT of space!   

Anybody want to ed-u-ma-kate this poor boy?   

[wncchester]

I've had a little experiece with fillers.  Take this for what it's worth, I'm no expert. 

In the mid 60s, the NRA wrote up a short series on cast bullets in 30-06 with significantly reduced charges of "normal" powders, including  IMR-4895 to as slow as H-4831.  I had a 205 gr. mold and lots of 4831 so I made up maybe 2-3 thousand rounds using their methods, it may help you too.  They were GREAT "high power" plinking and target practice loads for short range competion in my gun club matches.

About all it consisted of was about a 3/4 charge of what ever powder, not safety critical at all, and the filler.  The filler was a  .5-.8 gr. fluffy tuft of either kapok, taken from old "life jackets" of the period, or tufts of polyester "wool" pillow stuffing.  The point was to avoid using oat/corn meal or grits, etc.   (I used the polyester because my wife had some for her craft projects.)  After charging, a tuft was pinched off and rolled between the fingers enough to stuff it into the necks and a short rod was used to push it on down onto the powder column.  The filler stuff was harmless to the bore, it expanded to fill the air space and held the powder against the primer in the same position for each shot.  It worked good too, velocities were said to approach normal but the recoil was very much reduced.

You can find the polyester wool at most any craft store.  I've seen it in Walmart's sewing & crafts department.  Worth a try. 

[cwlongshot]

  I have used them as well. Win Gran-ex was a good one for filler in shotgun loads to cushion the pellets and worked OK as a case filler. but I don't think its around anylonger. At least I haven't seen any in some time. many different things have been used, from corn meal to flour to oat meal. (Beware of flour as it WILL BURN!!) Those things are a bit heavy and can cause problems. but many countless shells have been loaded and fired that way, before kapok, aka pillow stuffing was around.

 I agree with Wncchester, about the use of kapok. His is a good description.

CW

[Larry Gibson]

I confess!  I have NEVER used a filler...    Probably because I've never fooled around with reduced loads.  But now, gathering loads for my 45-120 project, I believe I'll have to use some.  That 3.25 inch case has a LOT of space!   

Anybody want to ed-u-ma-kate this poor boy?   

If you are talking black powder then you'll need a solid filler between the base of the bullet and the black powder.  Fiber wads, COW and other materials work ok here.  With smokeless powders equal to or slower burning than 4227, 4198, 4759, 5744, etc. in my 45-70 I use a dacron filler of 1 to 1 1/4 gr ("eye ball" cut) under 400-500 gr bullets.  With your 45-120 you'll no doubt need more than that.  Just make sure to use enough dacron to fill the space between powder and bullet.  The dacron contributes to increased ignition consistancy which improves accuracy.  The dacron also does not burn and is not a fire hazard. 

Larry Gibson

[BBF]

Looking in the Lyman# 48 which is the only manual I have that even lists loads for that cartridge shows NO fillers being used.
For the three bullets shown, two 500 gr and one 535 gr the powders are SR4759,
XMP-5744 and surprise surprise IMR 4350

They recommend XMP 5744 as the best powder to start with.

The BP book shows loads for GoexFFg, ElephantFFg, Goex Cartridge Pyrodex RS and Pyrodex Select with powder loads by volume equivalant to be compressed 1/16" by the bullet.

[Steve P]

In my reading, I have heard the fiber wads are best used with the black powder cartridges.

In my experience fireforming brass, the charges that used a poly or hair type filler usually ended up with powder mixed in with the filler and were inconsistent.

I ended up using a powder charge, tissue wad, then corn meal.  These rounds were fired within a day so no chance of corn meal gathering moisture.

In my reduced loads for straight wall cartridges, I use a foam wad made from the foam trays you get at the meat counter in the supermarket.  It just keeps the powder near the primer.

I have not seen nor heard of a reliable filler used in hunting rounds.  I am curious to read posts and ideas on this subject.

Steve

[AtlLaw]

The filler was a  .5-.8 gr. fluffy tuft of either kapok, taken from old "life jackets" of the period, or tufts of polyester "wool" pillow stuffing.
... After charging, a tuft was pinched off and rolled between the fingers enough to stuff it into the necks and a short rod was used to push it on down onto the powder column. in the same position for each shot. ... it expanded to fill the air space and held the powder against the primer

Okay, polyester wool.  You compress it to get it in the case and it expands.  Are you supposed to put enough in the case to fill the whole space between the powder and the bullet?  How do you know how much that is?   

The filler stuff was harmless to the bore,

and

The point was to avoid using oat/corn meal or grits, etc.

I know those fillers were used a lot, but it always seemed to me that eventually the powder would sift into the filler.  And I also heard somewhere that some synthetic that was being used melted and caused problems.  True?   

I agree with Wncchester, about the use of kapok. His is a good description.

Well, that's about as good a recommendation as I need!   

If you are talking black powder then you'll need a solid filler between the base of the bullet and the black powder.  Fiber wads, COW and other materials work ok here.

I was referring to smokeless although the 45-120 does seem to cry out for BP.  I wondered about the fiber wads for that perpose.

in my 45-70 I use a dacron filler of 1 to 1 1/4 gr ("eye ball" cut) under 400-500 gr bullets.

Is there a product name for the dacron filler?

With your 45-120 you'll no doubt need more than that.  Just make sure to use enough dacron to fill the space between powder and bullet.

AH HA!  this was my question above!  How do you know how much to use and does the whole space have to be full of... filler?   

Looking in the Lyman# 48

I go over and over that Lyman!     Matter of fact, it's the one that got me questioning whether or not you should use fillers.   

In my reading, I have heard the fiber wads are best used with the black powder cartridges.

That was my understanding.  Now confirmed BTW!   

poly or hair type filler usually ended up with powder mixed in with the filler and were inconsistent.

 

I ended up using a powder charge, tissue wad, then corn meal.

Tyler says he uses tissue paper over the powder.

I use a foam wad made from the foam trays

Wouldn't this stuff melt?

I have not seen nor heard of a reliable filler used in hunting rounds.

Glad you brought that up!     I never said it, but that's the kind of info I'm looking for.  Fillers for hunting ammo!  Stuff that will probably be carried, ejected, bounced, dropped, vibrated, etc. a lot before it is shot.

[Larry Gibson]

Dacron is polyester fill used in pillows, quilts, toys, etc.  I buy a few yards (will last a long time) it in sheets about 5/8" thick at fabric stores, it is usually called "batting" and not expensive at all.  I cut it into strips about 3/4" wide then "eye ball the cross cut for the size I want. A pair of sharp scissors makes this easy and you can cut a lot of "fillers" while watching a John Wayne flick!  1/4 - 1 1/2 gr should make a good filler for your 45-120s, at least they do in a friends Sharps 45-120.  I just poke the dacron down into the case with a section of 22 cleaning rod until it is all in the case. I do not tamp it down on the powder but let the bullet pushit down when seated.  The dacron expands and fills the case preventing powder migration.  It does not burn and will not melt and does not leave a deposit in the bore.  It also protects the base of the bullet and some conjecture it acts as a gas seal also.  I have tested all the available fillers that are normally used in numerous straight and bottlenecked cartridges and have found dacron to be the best of the lot bar none.  I do not use fillers or wads with any powders faster than those mentioned in my earlier post.

Fiber wads would be the thing to use with BP loads if you wanted something less that 120 gr of BP. 

Larry Gibson

[Steve P]

Wads from the foam trays do melt.  Try a piece of that stuff in a fire.  As it melts, it shrinks.  The pressure generated by your primer going off gets it moving.  As the powder ignites, the foam wad starts to shrink and blows out the end of the barrel.  I have never seen any type of residue, fowling, or target contact in 1000s of rounds using these.  I have had better SD over the chrono with them also.

Using the woven "batting" mentioned in Larry's post sounds like the ticket!  I will have to try it especially in bottle neck cartridges like 6TCU and 6.5 TCU.  Seems like it could really up the pressures if you use too big of a piece?

The stuff that was shown to me years ago was the stuff used in pillows and was about like poofy hairs in a clump.  You ripped off a chuck like you do cotton candy.  You had to pack a pretty tight case to keep your powder from mixing with the filler.  I used an old sink turned upside down to fireform brass.  I put in my false shoulder, added primer and powder, then a wad of this hairy stuff.  I held my barrel down thru the drain hole and fired.  The sink gave a dull whomp sound, and the neighbors were none the wiser.  When I would get done fire forming my brass, about 90% would look good.  I would pick up that sink and go to clean up the mess.  I would find quite a few bunches of that poofy hair stuff that had powder flakes in it.  Maybe I was using it wrong. 

This is a great post.  I will have to get some of that batting to try out.  I have some 7 Super Bower brass to make before chucks start sticking their heads up.

Steve

[Graybeard]

That HUGE case is supposed to be filled to the brim with BP not partially filled with smokeless. If ya were gonna use smokeless than the .45-70 was all the case you needed.

[AtlLaw]

If ya were gonna use smokeless than the .45-70 was all the case you needed.

Yessir, you absolutely right...    ain't no use denyen it...    But i've got this thing about size... even if I can't use it I like knowing it's there... 

[quickdtoo]

I've shot a lot of smokeless in my 45-120 BC, AA data using 5744 works fine with no filler, Hodgdon data for H4895 works if you make sure the powder is all the way to the rear of the case, but it's very position sensitive and I got hang fires if I didn't, considered using Pufflon ballistic filler, but the 5744 works so well, never tried it.

Tim

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/ObsoleteCartridges/45%20120%20Sharps%20Straight%20page%20365.pdf

http://www.pufflon.com/newfront.html

[AtlLaw]

AA data using 5744 works fine with no filler,

Thanks Tim.  I had that question about 5744 in the back of my mind also.   

[Lead pot]

A 3.250" case with any smokeless powder is asking for trouble.
Even powder like 5744 that is made for large volume cases can be a problem with a case that long.
When you spread powder out in a case that long you can and most likely get a detonation (or flash over) instead of a progressive burn and that is disastrous.
Using a filler can also create problems that I wont get into.
Placing a wad over the powder and then a filler it will see that load as a obstruction in the barrel.
Do what Bill said, load it with a full case of black powder.
That is what that case is designed for to use.
By the way, a polyester fiber will melt.

LP.

[quickdtoo]

Be sure to note the LR magnum primer and the firm crimp, I use a 45-70 Lee factory crimp die with a section of steel conduit 1.10" long for a spacer. 

Tim

[AtlLaw]

Be sure to note the LR magnum primer and the firm crimp, I use a 45-70 Lee factory crimp die with a section of steel conduit 1.10" long for a spacer. 

LR Mag primers... firm crimp... got it!     I'm ordering the dies tomorrow but you gonna have to 'splain the placement of the spacer to me.   

[quickdtoo]

It just makes up for the difference in case lengths so the crimp die will work when the shell holder contacts the sleeve on the bottom of the  die, since the 45-120 is longer than the 45-70, you need the spacer to make up the difference so it will crimp. 

Tim