Author Topic: Carbide Die?  (Read 1183 times)

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Offline PigBoy Crabshaw

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Carbide Die?
« on: February 02, 2009, 07:03:13 AM »
I've been burning the midnight oil going over years of reloading posts here @ GB.
When looking in reloading supply catalogs, They advertise that no lube is needed for
CARBIDE Dies. I'm reading just the opposite here. A lot of people in threads here are saying
to use lube in carbides. I thought that was the reason for buying them hence there higher price? Are they a better quality die or is it the selling point of not needing lube?
Is it only the first step deprime/resize that lube is needed?
Sorry for all my basic reloading questions. I'm getting to get into the hobby of reloading
and until I see the process I'm not really grasping the concept. I want to see a few set-ups before I start buying and componets. -gary
"In God We Trust - Everyone else keep you hands where I can see them!"

Offline wncchester

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2009, 07:51:09 AM »
Yes, it is only the resizing effort that needs lube.   Carbide sizing die rings are indeed made to eliminate the need for lube and it works.  Sorta.  Well, you can - many do - skip lubing forever if you wish, but your brass will eventually pay a price if you don't.

Thing is, any time we run two metals hard against each other it produces heat from the friction.  While our cases won't get stuck in carbide dies if used dry, that pressure and friction does some bad things.  Small, almost microscopic bits of brass will scrape off the cases and adhere to the carbide ring in a process called "galling".  The galled bits will be as firmly attached as if they were welded!  Understandably, those tiny bits continue to grow as successive cases are rubbed over them.  Eventually, the galled sizer will be making clearly visible scratches on the cases, most people think they have scored the die surface with dirty cases but that's rarely true.  As the galling continues to grow the scratches will eventually become so deep they weaken the cases and they will eventually split along the scratch lines. 

Once galling starts the only cure is to polish, or grind, the brass off the carbide.  That can be done by the maker or at home.  Just use a short length of split dowel rod chucked in a high speed drill.  Put a strip of fine grit black sandpaper, silicon carbide of 400 grit or finer, and spin it until the brass is removed.  Or use a wad of 3M's green cleaning pad and do the same thing but slower.  Or soak the die's bottom in a copper dissolving bore solovent. 

The prevention of galling on carbide is much easier than cureing it after it happens.   Just lightly lube some, maybe every 10th or 20th case.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline Tom W.

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2009, 07:54:05 AM »
The Idea is that with straight walled cases lube is not needed with carbide dies. It is not  advisable to size dirty cases however. I don't lube my cases when using carbide dies.

If using standard steel dies you most definitely need to lube your cases (lightly, and not on the neck and shoulder on bottle neck cases) and brush and lightly lube the inside of the case mouth on bottle neck cases. This is done when you re-size/ de-prime your cases.  I then measure and if needed trim my cases and throw them into the tumbler to clean them.

The "book" says to trim straight walled pistol and revolver cases, but I believe I've done that once in 35 years...
Tom
Alabama Hunter and firearms safety instructor

I really like my handguns!

Offline corbanzo

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2009, 08:07:12 AM »
I say it all depends on the size of the cartridge.  I have steel pistol dies that have never seen a drop of lube.  The cases are too small to make enough friction to get stuck.  For the most part, no matter what the dies are made of, rifle cartridges get the lube, pistol cartridges don't. 
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Online Graybeard

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2009, 08:25:54 AM »
With carbide dies there is no need for lube. They won't wear out cases or dies because you don't lube them. Where that idea came from I have no clue. I'm still using some old .44 magnum cases that I've reloaded perhaps 100 times all sized in carbide dies with no lube and they still work. I have no clue how many straight wall pistol cartridges I've sized and loaded using carbide dies and no lube but it is for sure in the 150,000+ range by now. Plus how many tho I dunno. I don't keep a count on such things.


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Offline Steve P

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2009, 08:30:19 AM »
You don't have to lube with a carbide die.  

HOWEVER!  If you put a little imperial sizing die wax on your thumb and forefinger and use these to pick up your brass, that minute amount of lube will make your die work much smoother and easier.  Ends up being easier on your die and easier on your arm.  Makes loading 100s of rounds that much easier.

As for sizing brass with steel dies and no lube.  You can throw 5 rounds sized that way into a group of 100 brass and it wont take long to pick them out.  One or two times and you may not notice it.  Do a 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP or similar type brass several times and you will soon start having issues when you  shoot.  The fired brass will not extract real easily and it ends up sticking out of your action or damaging an extractor.  

Steve :)
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Offline PigBoy Crabshaw

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2009, 02:49:38 PM »
Thanks for responding. Are they worth the extra cost? -g
"In God We Trust - Everyone else keep you hands where I can see them!"

Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2009, 03:56:50 PM »
YES. 8)
Badnews Bob
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Offline Darrell Davis

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2009, 05:18:00 PM »
Worth the extra cost?  YES!!!!!!!!

Without a doubt.

And again, funny how this happens, I come down with Graybeard.

I have over the years, sized thousands of cases with carbide dies and have never seen any reason for lube, and lots or reasons NOT TO LUBE.  TIME SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I don't hate the wiping step to get the oil off my bottle neck cases, but sure like being able to avoid that step with the strieght wall cases,

Carbide dies are money well spent!

Keep em coming!

CDOC
300 Winmag

Offline PigBoy Crabshaw

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2009, 05:53:34 PM »
I see many dies on flea bay and craig's list for sale. Are dies one reloading component better picked up new than used? Thanks -g
"In God We Trust - Everyone else keep you hands where I can see them!"

Online Graybeard

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 06:33:17 PM »
Maybe but not necessarily. It depends on how they've been cared for. If you're only gonna save $5 to $10 and don't know and/or trust the source I'd say go with new. I've bought used and got as good as new but then I've bought used and got junk also.


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Offline Sweetwater

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 08:41:09 PM »
What GB said +1!!

Another tip - try the GBO classifieds. You'd be buying from fellow members, helping them fund other projects or keep a project going, and very likely what you get will have been quite well taken care of. Dies very rarely wear out. IF you get a bad one, it more than likely left the factory that way. That happened with a Redding die I bought new (non-carbide). No matter how much, how little, or what kind of lube I used, it would not size a shell without sticking. Redding bent over backwards to make it right and after trying to polish the die into correction, they sent me a new die. End of problem. I once had a sizing die that was 'over-sized'. The company had long gone out of business, and a new die from a company in business solved the problem. 2 dies out of probably about 50 sets of dies from most of the various diemakers speaks quite well of the quality you may expect. Used is a good way to go to get a variety of calibers.

Lube with steel dies - do not lube with carbide dies - do clean your brass with either die. I can stick a 38S&W in a steel sizer if I don't lube every case. I've got carbide sizers from as far back as the early '70's. I shot competition for several years and those carbide sizers got a workout, but don't show any sign of it.

Go with carbide - only available for straight-walled cartridges - very much well worth the extra money!!!

Welcome to the handloading fraternity!! It's a great ride!

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 10:45:54 PM »
like was said you dont need lube. If your cases are clean your probably hurting yourself using lube as it will attracted dirt. Carbide dies can wear out. Ive actually wore out two sizing dies in dillon square deals. No big deal with them as they replaced them for free. It must not happen to often though as they wanted me to send them the old ones after i got the replacements so they could take a look at them. Granted those dies saw more ammo loaded them probably 6 averarge loaders would see in there lifetime and if your loading on a single stage press youd have to probably load from sun up to sunrise the rest of your life to do it.
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Offline PigBoy Crabshaw

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 08:42:38 PM »
If I'm going with either of the Lee carbide die sets, would getting the set with four dies (Carbide Factory Crimp Die added) be any advantage over the set of three?
I'm loading the 357 for Lever, Handi, and revolver.
If getting the set with three dies, would getting the 357/357max hold any advantage over 38/357 in die size or ? I'm not planning on loading any 38's or 357 max at his time but you never know down the road.

The Lee Deluxe Pistol Die Set
#90964
$31.90
Carbide three-die set with the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die
38spl / 357mag

Lee Carbide 3-Die Sets
#90511  357–357max
$27.30         
#90510 38spl / 357mag
$27.30
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Offline OLDHandgunner

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2009, 01:26:35 AM »
Like said with most above. Go with carbide dies. They are a great investment. My original RCBS carbide dies in 38 & 44 from 40 years ago are still going strong. I bought dillon carbide dies with my dillon 450 press 20 years ago and have had no problems with them either, but like Lloyd said if you do have a problem with them dillon will replace them FREE.
The only carbide die I ever had to lightly lube was for a 30 carbine. Years ago my buddy had a Ruger Blackhawk in 30 carbine and wanted me to load up some shells for him. He brought me RCBS carbide dies. Cases kept getting stuck in the die. So I called RCBS and they said to very lightly lube outside of these cases. This solved the problem.
The only thing I would like to add is that I've always heard is that NICKLE brass can scratch your carbide dies if used alot. I have 1000's of nickled brass in 38 spl that I used in my PPC gun years ago. I never had a problem, but when I saw any flaking or chips I canned the brass.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 01:43:27 AM »
If I'm going with either of the Lee carbide die sets, would getting the set with four dies (Carbide Factory Crimp Die added) be any advantage over the set of three?
I'm loading the 357 for Lever, Handi, and revolver.
If getting the set with three dies, would getting the 357/357max hold any advantage over 38/357 in die size or ? I'm not planning on loading any 38's or 357 max at his time but you never know down the road.

The Lee Deluxe Pistol Die Set
#90964
$31.90
Carbide three-die set with the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die
38spl / 357mag

Lee Carbide 3-Die Sets
#90511  357–357max
$27.30         
#90510 38spl / 357mag
$27.30


 Either one will do what you want. If you only want to load 357Magnum. If you step up to RCBS or REDDING carbide set, you will be able to load 38,357 AND 357max in the same die set. Lee dies tend to be a bit shorter than others, maybe that is the reason the std 38/357 will not load the maxi? I don't have this Lee set to tell you. I do have a RCBS and a old LYMAN American steel set. Both will load all three cases and both are marked 38/357Mag.

 If your buying used. Do yourself a favor...DONT buy Lee. I wouldn't suggest them at all. But many here like them and they seem to work for them. I have seen too much bad from them and will never waste my money on them. I don't want this to become another Lee bashing thread. I'm just saying if going with a used die set, use the savings advantage and get a better built die set.

CW
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2009, 02:08:10 AM »
I have owned and used carbide dies for years and will continue to do so.  I also lube my cases whether the dies require it or not.  I find that if any of my cases are dirty enough to carry fouling or other crap up and into the die, the tiny bit of lubrication I use helps prevent that. 

I find that loading straight pistol or rifle cases, carbide sizing die or not, the process is much quicker, easier and cleaner with a bit of lube. 

If you are reloading 38/357 brass and use nickled cases you need to understand those particular cases will scratch up easily and quickly even with carbide dies.  Those cases should be cleaned or polished first, then lightly lubed and then sized.  This is the only way I have been able to keep some of that nickled brass shooting for as long as I have without fears of a total case failure due to a full length split running down a scratch line.  Mikey.

Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2009, 02:36:39 AM »
Sorry CW but the Lee die will load Max ammo just fine thats all I use for it. And the four die set is well worth it for the crimp die.
Badnews Bob
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2009, 04:28:37 AM »
Sorry CW but the Lee die will load Max ammo just fine that's all I use for it. And the four die set is well worth it for the crimp die.
No apology necessary.
  As I said, I do not have a set of Lee 38/357 dies to try and was merely going on OP's statement. It is a fact that some Lee dies are shorter then others, so concluded that they may be the reason the Max had a specail die set.

I'm glad that they work for you.

CW
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Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2009, 09:59:16 AM »
I do have a set of Lee .38 dies that will not work on the Max, But they do not say 38/357 like the other set, They are the first set of dies I ever bought and they were used when I got them I still use them for .38s, I do all my .357 mags on my dillion SDB now thou, Maxys get done on my Junk ;D Lee classic cast turrent with Lee carbide 4 die set.  Works for me. 8)

BTW  CW I may get back to work next month, really getting tired of sitting at home, I hope your recovery dosn't take to long.
Badnews Bob
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Offline gypsyman

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2009, 10:53:58 AM »
With all of my straight wall case's, I use carbide dies.(Redding) But, as an experiment years ago, I will took some case's and sprayed alittle of the Hornady One Shot on them. Made working the handle MUCH easier. So now, I have some cardboard trays that 24 beers/soda pop come in. I spread the cases' around, probably 500-700, depending on caliber. Give them a couple short sprays of the One Shot, and I really do mean short sprays, almost like you were spray painting something. Let it dry for 5-10 minute's, and go to town. I know I don't cover every case, but I figure I don't have to. Makes it much easier when your sizing hundreds of case's. Also, word to the wise. Don't use Hornady One Shot on the plastic MTM tray. First time I tried the One Shot that way, it started to melt the tray. That's why I went to the cardboard tray. Plus it hold more. gypsyman
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Offline PigBoy Crabshaw

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2009, 02:07:44 PM »
The tone of discussion, tips, and wealth of knowledge on this site make it a pleasure to pull up a stool to just read if nothing else. I think I've learned more here in a such short time than from a few reloading books that I've read several time over the years but just did not grasp certain concepts.
I don't reload and have never seen it done. Because of all of the feedback to my questions, I think I can do it and have ordered a press and supplies today. There's no turning back now and I know I'll have a back up system to any issue I encounter or need assistance with.

Thanks guys and Graybeard for such a great site. -gary
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Offline HuntMeister

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Re: Carbide Die?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2009, 03:04:21 PM »
The tone of discussion, tips, and wealth of knowledge on this site make it a pleaseue to pull up a stool to just read if nothing else. I think I've learned more here in a such short time than from a few reloading books that I've read several time over the years but just did not grasp certain concepts.
I don't reload and have never seen it done. Because of all of the feedbackto my questions, I think I can do it and have ordered a press and supplies today. There's no turning back now and I know I'll have a back up system to any issue I encounter or need assistance with.

Thanks guys and Graybeard for such a great site. -gary

Couldn't agree more with you! I am in the same boat, want to jump into reloading but I refuse to get into a hurry about it. So for now I am trying to absorb all the great info I can. Pigboy please share some details / pics of your new equipment when you get it.