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Offline Mt_Sourdough

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question about acceptable accuracy
« on: February 03, 2009, 05:06:23 PM »
The newest issue of THE COMPLETE RIFLEMAN  (#59) has an article about the RCM rifles/cartridges.  Though the article reads like your typical "greatest thing since peanut butter" hype, I took great interest in the part about accuracy.  The author refers to accuracy in his tests like this -
  "Accuracy was about what I expected from light carbines with 20-inch barrels measuring.585 inches at the muzzle.  All three shot loads printed three-shot-group averages that were remarkably similar at to the smallest, largest and average." 
  That is all the author wrote about the rifles accuracy, but these numbers printed for the 225 gr .338 RCM
   Largest group 2.7"  Smallest group 2.0"  Average 2.3"
   I have read 3 or 4 articles that have claimed similar numbers from this rifle/cartridge.  None of these articles talked about the accuracy as exceptionally poor, but in my mind, there is no other way to describe those results.  So what am I missing?  That is about an inch bigger group than what I get with my 444 with open irons.  Every Rifle that I have ever shot for groups gave me 1.5" or better.  The author uses a caldwell bench rest.  I use nothing more than a soft back pack for a rest. 
  How could the results of accuracy tests be so poor?  Shouldnt this be given more attention to by the different authors when they write about this rifle/cartridge?  Should I see it for what it is and just forget about these rifle/cartridges?  I really wanted one, but now I am very leary.
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2009, 05:48:23 PM »
The magazines are supported by the advertising for rifles and ammo.  You will NEVER see an article that says some particular rifle is a piece of Shi**.  They will always be good to perfect.  Any modern rifle should be able to an inch and a half at 100 yards.  A Varmint rifle has to be able to do under an inch to be of any use at all.  Just understand where the information you are reading is comeing from and who is paying the bills and you will understand the results of the "testing".  Only reliable information you will find is on the boards like these where the people posting are not paid by the rifle makers.  Larry
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Online Graybeard

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2009, 06:06:14 PM »
What Larry says is pretty much spot on. The magazines and writers both make their money from the advertisers. Ya don't keep advertisers very long saying bad things about their wares. Just the facts of life. Any time they do a big review like that the manufacturer of the item under review generally buys as a minimum a full page ad some times more. Now I don't pretend to know what a full page ad in a magazine like that runs but I'd not at all be surprised to find it ran in excess of $25,000 and perhaps even $50,000. In addition to that they pay for the hunts the writers go on and supply the guns, scopes, ammo, binoculars and all other expenses other than taxidermy I think.

A hunt will usually be sponsored by several companies who supply those items and split the out of pocket expenses for the writer. Do you really think that writer is then gonna say nasty things about how sorry an excuse for a product it is EVEN if it is a sorry excuse for a product? If he did he'd not be working in the industry very long.

So long as they put the actual numbers down that's all that's really important. From those you can draw your own conclusions and the more honest of them will do that for you. The less honest of them will just leave it at their narrative comments. When they do that I generally figure it was so bad the manufacturer would not be pleased with them for showing real numbers.

Back when I was doing reviews what I preferred to do was to list the actual results I got and if I thought those results were worthy of praise I'd add that as well. My policy was that if I asked for a product and it was so bad it would shame the manufacturer I just didn't report the review. If I was asked by them to do the review rather than me asking for the product I reported it regardless and if I bought the item the results were reported regardless. Some how I just didn't think it right to ask for a product get it provided at no cost to me then knock it.

Magazine writers don't have to ask they stuff just flows as a normal course of business.

My personal standards for a big game hunting rifle are that 1.5" groups will work if the rifle is to be used mostly in the 250 yard and under ranges. I much prefer to keep groups at 1.25" or less but never feel bad if some run to 1.25" or even 1.5" if some also run under an inch. For big game rifles those are three shot groups.

For varmint target rifles my standards are much tighter and I shoot five shot groups and want all under an inch and most at 0.75" or less and am gonna be disappointed if some aren't at or under a half inch for five.

Not all guns I shoot meet that standard. Most that don't do not get discussed and none supplied by a maker at my request will be if they are just losers. In private conversations when asked I'll tell but won't do a review under those conditions. But when I pay my money and they are rotten to the core I report it as it falls. If they ask me to review and it's defective I give them a chance to make it right same as you should if you buy one that's not right. I then report the results of whatever they do.

I realize also that if I expect manufacturers to provide me with items for review at no cost to me I can't be making it look like their stuff is junk even if it is. In those cases the review is just not published and when I'm asked for my experiences with such and such I reply honestly.


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Offline Mt_Sourdough

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2009, 09:04:51 PM »
Bill and Larry, thank ya kindly for your replies.  Im kinda bummed  :-\, because I had my heart set on getting one of those RCM rifles.  I was really hoping that somebody could tell me something I was missing, but I guess the numbers dont lie.  Like I said, this wasnt the first test I have read that posted those poor group sizes from the RCM rifles.  The ballistics of the 338 RCM are exactly what I am looking for, but 2.5 inches at a 100 yards is so poor that I thought maybe it was a mistake.  Now I should be glad that I didnt go and buy one and then end up regretting it. Maybe, I should make things easy on myself and get a good ol' 300 win and not look back. 
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Offline Mikey

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2009, 02:08:26 AM »
Mt_Sourdough:  Bill and Larry are quite right.  Most gun writers will hype just about anything if the maker spends enough $ for the effort and if they want to keep earning their bread and butter they hype it very well. 

But then too, take a look at that particular rifle.  Brand spankin' new and right from either a dealer or the original maker and I doubt any of the ammo they shot were custom tailored handloads.  But, I think the accuracy potential might, or should be there.  The Rifle Shooter magazine just ran an article on another 338 caliber, the 338 Marlin and group size wasn't too bad - looked to be about 1.5" at 100 yds so the 338 bore may yet have its calling. 

If you had your heart set onone of those rifles I'll bet you could easily improve the accuracy with some stock work and breaking in.  Also, with the availability of ammo, handloading for accuracy should be considered. 

And who know, the guys who tested those rifles may even have been lousy shots....ya know.  Mikey.


Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 03:18:01 AM »
...

And who know, the guys who tested those rifles may even have been lousy shots....ya know.  Mikey.

That was my thought, too.  I have a safe full of Ruger rifles and NONE of them shoot that poorly.  In fact, when the wind isn't blowing too hard they will all do 1-1/4" or better, mostly better.

If you like the RCM cartridge, I wouldn't let one magazine article dissuade you.  I also wouldn't shoot factory ammo, but that is another matter.
Coyote Hunter
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Offline tuck2

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2009, 04:19:01 PM »
For about  the past 55 years I have purchased new and used firearms.   I like my big game rifles to shoot 1.5 inch or less five shot groups at 100 yards and a varmint rifle to shoot 0.75 of an inch group or less at 100 yards. To get the rifles both new and used to shoot smaller groups the rifles were given a full or partial tune up. A tune up may include Glass bedding the action with about two inches of the barrel, free floating the rest of the barrel, adjust the trigger pull, lapp bolt locking lugs, recrown the muzzle,  free float the magazine box, remove wood under the bolt, and bolt release.  The first thing I do with used rifles is  take it apart then clean it..

Offline JPShelton

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2009, 01:11:10 PM »
My oh my, how spoiled we've become.......

I recall reading plenty of rifle reviews in the "Dope Bag" section of American Rifleman during my formative years.  They way I remember things "back in the day" was that you didn't have to look too hard to find a rifle that wouldn't deliver a sub-2" group at 100 yards.  In fact, in our family deer camp, there were quite a number of fellows who routinely hunted -successfully, I might add- with battered old M-94 Winchesters that probably couldn't print sub-3" groups on their best days.

It didn't stop these guys from hunting and it didn't stop them from filling their tags each season.

Flash forward to the present time, where we demand minute of angle accuracy, even though we might realistically be applying it to a task that doesn't actually demand such high levels of precision.

It is pure speculation on my part, but I would be inclined to believe that more game animals are taken at distance less than 200 yards in this country than are taken at ranges in excess of that mark.

Our family hunting camp that I mentioned was on the High Desert slope of the San Bernardino Mountains in California.  Some of that country was as wide open as you can imagine.  One of the longest shots I ever took on a game animal was made in that country.  It was a 275 yard poke across a draw, with me shooting a Ruger No. 1 in .300 Weatherby Magnum.  It was the first and only time in that country that I felt compelled to shoot that far, and it took two decades worth of seasons for me to come to a point where I decided to shoot at range, rather than attempt to close the gap.

I hunted that same general area season after season.  I started at the age of 11 with a Marlin 336.  Definitely not tack driving, long range ordinance.  At 18, I managed to aquire ("steal" is probably a better word) a well-cared for Griffin and Howe built on a M-1903 Springfield barreled action, and I used that rifle, sans scope.  Even in wide open country.  It had the excellent Lyman 48 peep sight, but as good as that sight was, it wasn't a 9X telescope.

My 336 was a solid 2.5" @ 100 gun with everything I fed it.  My Springfield would do 1 MOA, but not with my pet handload consisting of 180 grain Nosler Partitions atop 55 grains of IMR 4350.  With that load, it was a whole lot closer to a 2" @ 100 rifle than a 1"@100 rifle.  Dittos for my Number 1.  With 190 grain Sierra MatchKings, it was dazzingly accurate.  But those weren't the right medicine for hunting use.  With 180 grain Partitions, it was much closer to a 2" @ 100 rifle. 


That didn't stop me from wacking a mulie at 275 with the thing.

Like most people who shoot guns for fun, I find accurate rifles to be much more enjoyable to play with than those that are less precise.

That said, I'm not sure that having a rifle capable of hitting the vitals of a deer at 500 yards every time would have added much to my hunting in the past, and I am pretty certain it won't in my current situation.

Why?

Because once the blinding muzzle flash that turned my view through the scope orange went away, that 275 yard mulie that I had no problem seeing when standing on all fours blended in with the various shades of tan and brown of the local terrain so well that I had a devil of a time finding it, even though it was "bang, flop" and dead where it stood when it took the hit.

Once I got my size, I started hunting other places, like southern Utah.  Again, pretty wide-open terrain.  The farthest shot I ever took hunting in the general area of Panguitch was 175 yards.  And that was with my old peep-sight equipped Springfield.

In truth, even in open areas, I've wacked more mule deer at distances less than 200 yards than ranges greater.  In fact, they've often been a lot less, like 75 to 100.  And that is in open, high-desert kind of country totally unlike the dense hardwoods of the Cherokee Nation that I hunt in now, where the longest shot I am ever likely to have even the remotest possibility of taking is 150 yards.

Even on our "big eared dogs" that pass for deer in my neighborhood, the KZ is roughly the size of a pie tin.  Score a hit anywhere on that "pie tin" sized area, and you'll be eating backstraps in short order.

And I think I could get the first shot into that "pie tin" at distances greater than I really want to shoot a deer even if I was shooting a 2 MOA rifle, rather than a sub MOA one.

Ultimately, the 2.3" average of the .338 RCM might not impress some, and many might poo-poo it as being less than sufficiently precise.  Others, like me, might well be satisfied with it.  While "gnat's gnads" precision is nice, and certainly useful to some, for the game that I hunt and the manner in which I hunt it, a rifle that shot 2.3" groups wouldn't be the excuse I'd use for not filling my tag.  Because even at that level of precision, I'd be likely to get that first shot into the "pie plate" sized vital zone, all the way out to 300 yards, which is about as far as I can imagine ever personally attempting a shot at a game animal.



Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2009, 02:28:29 PM »
...

Ultimately, the 2.3" average of the .338 RCM might not impress some, and many might poo-poo it as being less than sufficiently precise.  Others, like me, might well be satisfied with it.  While "gnat's gnads" precision is nice, and certainly useful to some, for the game that I hunt and the manner in which I hunt it, a rifle that shot 2.3" groups wouldn't be the excuse I'd use for not filling my tag.  Because even at that level of precision, I'd be likely to get that first shot into the "pie plate" sized vital zone, all the way out to 300 yards, which is about as far as I can imagine ever personally attempting a shot at a game animal.
 

Put me down as one that would be very dissatisfied with a bolt gun that couldn’t do better than 2.3” average at 100 yards.

Could I kill things with such a gun?  Of course.  But, frankly, that is irrelevant.

Would such a gun limit the range at which I would be willing to shoot game?  Depending on the cartridge, absolutely.

Have I ever needed better accuracy for hunting?  No, but close, and I cannot predict when longer shots might be all I get.

At the range, such a gun would be very frustrating.
Coyote Hunter
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Offline charles p

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2009, 02:43:07 PM »
I'm not very bright.  What is an RCM rifle?  I gather is is some sort of Ruger rifle?  Is is a black rifle for the tactical fellows or is it a hunting rifle?

Offline deerman12

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2009, 05:59:19 AM »
I agree with all you guys.  Only accurate rifles are interesting.  I read the same article.  i am suprised they let that article be published with such crappy results.  I certainly would not buy one if that is the best it would do.  I guess I will stick with all those crummy sub MOA remingtons I have,hehe.

Offline Mt_Sourdough

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 08:30:37 AM »
Well, I live in Montana.   ;)  We have speed goats, foothill mulies, and elk at the other side of expansive montain top parks.  I can only carry one rife at a time and I already have a 444 that shoots better than those rifles for-mentioned.  The 444 has open irons and has me covered for shots to 150 yards. It's my steep and thick timbers rifle.  Still, I want to extend my range for hunts into more open country, but dont want to carry a riffle as long as an aircraft carrier and that is why I WAS considering the 338 RCM.

 I feel comfortable, in the right conditions (no wind and a good steady rest), to stretch out to 400 yards with a rifle and ammo that I know well.  I have made successful shots at that distance in the past with my old model 70 featherweight 270.  The last couple of hunting seasons, I have been using a Howa/Hogue in 270. That rifle gave me sub moa from the start, but I have decided that I want a bigger bullet for elk.  That is why I have promised that rifle to my girlfriend and her kids.

 The kill zone on an elk is bigger than a pie plate (more like the size of King Henry's dinner plate), but 2.3 inches at 100 yards is closer to 10 inches in variance of shot placement at 400 yards.  That kind of accuracy equates to blown up legs, gut shots and wasted game that dies some number of miles away.

The revelation about the RCM's accuracy has made me step back and re-evaluate things.  I must mention another factor for me as I consider my next rifle purchase.  Just recently, I got layed off at my construction job :-\.  I have a new job that I'll be starting soon, but I'll be making less money.  With the state of the economy, I dont know if I will go back to construction work any time soon.  With my finances considered, why would I pay $750 for a rifle that I'll need to lap this, float that and start hanloading to develope a sweet round that will make this rifle shoot accurately?  Especially, when I can purchase a rifle for $300 or $400 less that can shoot ammo off the shelf to 1 moa. 

 I work and sweat hard for every penny I get and have done so since age 13, so I don't really consider myself spoiled in general.  But if my rifles spoil me, than I am a happier man for it. ;D 
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Offline SDS-GEN

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 01:37:54 PM »
RCM=Ruger Compact Magnum

I agree with most others, a factory bolt action should group 1.5" or better with factory ammo, and under 1" with handloads.  I understand there are only a couple of loadings for this cartridge and group size could shrink if another brand of ammo became available, then again maybe it wouldn't.  Also hand loading won't produce the same ballistics Hornady is getting with their proprietary powders in factory ammo.

I can't remember who said it but "accurate rifles are interesting".

Offline jro45

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2009, 03:26:32 AM »
I don't beleave everthing I read about rifles. I hand load all my rounds for my rifles and accuracy for my rifles is excellant.

Offline hunt-m-up

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2009, 07:52:11 AM »
I expect my guns, MZ's included, to shoot 1.5" or under out of the box at the worst, even if it includes making some adjustments or find the right ammo.

Having said that, I think too many people today want to substitute technology for actually putting in the effort to "hunt" for their game. If you can't drive to within 400 yards, get out and shoot it using the mirror as a bipod, they're not interested. (Physical limitations excepted.)

From what I've seen of this site and what I like about it, is that this doesn't apply to the individuals here, you understand it's hunting not just "shooting".
Accurate guns are great and I enjoy the process of getting them there, but I still prefer to get close.
Crosman Slingshot, Daisy Red Ryder, dull butter knife

Offline Catfish

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2009, 02:49:01 PM »
What you need for accuracy really depends on what you will be shooting and how far you will be shooting it. I personally have alway like tack drivers for everything, so when a friend of my brought out an SKS to set up for deer hunting I thought he was crazy. After we had it restocked and a decent scope on it it shot real consistant at just under 4 in. groups at 100 yrds. I told him what I would do with it if it were mine, but he said it was just what he was looking for. A quick pointing gun with a fast back up shot, or 2. I ask about the accuracy and he said pleanty good enough. All his shots would be 100 yrds. or less and a 4 in. group should heart shoot any of them.  ??? Guess he was right.  :o Guess he was right, but I want my gun to shoot better than that.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2009, 03:03:55 AM »
... I ask about the accuracy and he said pleanty good enough. All his shots would be 100 yrds. or less and a 4 in. group should heart shoot any of them.  ??? Guess he was right.  :o Guess he was right, but I want my gun to shoot better than that.

Everyone has their own needs. 

My Browning B92 .44 Mag carbine has factory sights and 4" at 100 is the best I can do unless the sun is at my back so I can see the sights.  Not the gun's fault - if it was I 'd probably get rid of it. 

A gun that wouldn't group better than 4" would drive me crazy.
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Hank08

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2009, 07:34:50 AM »
More important on a hunting gun is to know exactly where the bullet will impact at any given range and to recognize that range when you see it.  Even a gun that shoots 2" groups is hitting within 1" of your aiming point.  Also more important is the group that you can shoot not the one some guy, who spent all his time learning to write instead of learning to shoot, has shot.  To make a living at gunwriting the ability to write is far more important than the ability to shoot.
H08

Offline diggler1833

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2009, 04:36:05 PM »
Let's not forget the bench to field accuracy differences as well.  I'd bet you'd be hard pressed to keep your MOA rifle MOA after chasing up and down a hill after something and had to take a quick shot.

Acceptable accuracy is subjective to people, always has been, always will be.  To me it's being able to hit what I want at the limit of the round's capability, energy wise.  Whether it's an X-ring or an animal's vitals, it makes no difference.

There are a lot of gun 'rag writers out there who I can't stand.  Some good ones that I enjoy reading that come to mind at the moment are Greg Rodriguez, and Zak Smith.  A lot of the time they usually end up reviewing a rifle/pistol that they already own.  Plus they are a lot more current on the long range game, a personal preference for me.  Not to say that there aren't more out there, I'm sure I can think of a couple more, I just don't feel like stopping typing to ponder.

For sake of flame wars I'll leave out the half-dozen or so that have no idea of what they are talking about.

Offline diggler1833

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2009, 04:38:38 PM »
Forgot to add, a lot of guns are more accurate than the shooter driving them.  What may be a 2MOA gun in one's hand might be a MOA gun in another's.  I try to read into how they were tested and the individual testing them.  May not be the best way to determine, but it helps.

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2009, 07:05:44 PM »
All duly noted and accepted observations.

We don't varmint hunt or benchrest compete.

Our adopted personal requirement is that P.O.I = P.O.A. with the first shot from a cold barrel.

My Dad's custom 30-06 just plain won't group from our perspective. He doesn't normally take a second shot at game and uses groups only for load development.
The 2nd shot is most always a strong inch to the right of the first shot and that's the end of the consistancy. The 3rd shot can be anywhere out to 4" away from shot#1, and in any direction.
It's a whip of a barrel, short and glass-bedded, but on the first shot, every time, P.O.I. = P.O.A.

After the first shot, we start field-dressing.

I concur with your concern about spending big bucks and then having to spend more to make it shoot. I did that with a Browning High Power back in the late '70's. That's what I said back then, "I'm not spending that much money on a gun that won't shoot well!" It was new and under warranty, but I wouldn't listen to the dealer who also was a personal friend. After 8 months of trying different loads to no avail, I gave it back to him and he gave me a full credit slip so I could buy something else. (A refund would have been ate up by my wife at the time - now my first ex-wife) Now I wish I'd listened and had it fixed at no cost.

So, to you I say, IF the rifle/cartridge combination is "what you want", just buy it and start the adventure. Use the factory warranty to your advantage if need be. You might find a loose guard screw or some equally minor thing that makes a major difference - and find you have a neat tack driver.

Good luck and let us know what you decide. I do know that if you don't follow your desires, you'll regret it.

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

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Offline no guns here

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2009, 10:19:50 AM »
Not saying a 2.3" group is good or anything like that 'cause it ain't.  But don't forget that there is normally a BIG difference in group size between a 3-shot group and a 5-shot group.  Lot's of factory rifles will shoot just at an inch for three shots but the last two will bring the group size up by a half inch or more.  Sometimes it just in how the testing protocal was set up.  I would almost bet that an average of five 3-shot groups and five 5-shot groups from most factory rifles would result in a 50% or greater increase in size.


ngh
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Offline diggler1833

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2009, 12:18:37 PM »
I completely agree with ngh.  If you really want to see how your rifle shoots, try a 10-20 round group.  I'd be willing to bet that most who brag about their MOA or less rifles would suddenly have a lot less to talk about...including me probably.  ;)

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2009, 06:02:49 PM »
Not saying a 2.3" group is good or anything like that 'cause it ain't.  But don't forget that there is normally a BIG difference in group size between a 3-shot group and a 5-shot group.  Lot's of factory rifles will shoot just at an inch for three shots but the last two will bring the group size up by a half inch or more.  Sometimes it just in how the testing protocal was set up.  I would almost bet that an average of five 3-shot groups and five 5-shot groups from most factory rifles would result in a 50% or greater increase in size.


ngh


All my guns are hunting guns so I don't really care about 5-shot groups.  I do care about 2-3 shot cold bore groups from fouled barrels and being able to hit clay pigeons at 400 and 500 yards.  (I don't clean the barrels between the last sight-in session and hunting season.)

Here's a 3-shot from my Ruger .257 Roberts:



Here's 10 shots with my Ruger 7mm RM, shot in a 40mph crosswind:



Here's 3 shots from my Remington .308 Win:


Two from my Ruger .30-06:


Five from my Ruger .300 Win Mag from a freshly cleaned and oiled bore:


Here's 9 shots from my Remington .308 Win.  Note that every shot used a different powder charge, in 0.5g increments:






Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2009, 03:08:13 AM »
I agree with no guns here.  Three shot groups don't mean much to me as far as a rifles accuracy.

IMO a five shot group is a better measure, and the standard I use.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Foggy

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Re: question about acceptable accuracy
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2009, 03:34:59 AM »
To me it's the cold bore shot .. the first of the day. Alot of rifles group just fine when fouled and warm. But where in a 1.5" circle dose it put the first shot at 200yrds,  the POA is center of the circle. because it's the first that's the meat getter. or unwanted guest stopper
 JMHO
 Foggy
Walk softly carry a big stick and never walk away  T.R.