Hollow point or hard cast bullet for my.44

[scott johnson]

I dont reload  so what I need I have to buy , Im looking to carry this when hiking and ,Ialways thought hollow points were the best but Im just not sure anymore Ihave heard of guys useing non hollow  points  is it because of the deeper penatratrion from a hard cast bullet or a bigger hole from the hollow point ,Iknow that where you hit the bear is the most important thing of all but lets  say  you were out in the woods and really had to use your .44mag pistol  to protect yourself from a bear , now Iknow that someone will probably say carry a shotgun with buck shot, butr Ireally want  to know .44mag bullet that packs the most punch  you can buy  at a store , Thanks

[Badnews Bob]

I much prefer hard cast myself. Blow a hole clean thru blood out of both sides.

[Lloyd Smale]

never seen anything a cast bullet cant do in a sixgun

[jhalcott]

 IF you just have to use the .44 while walking in the woods, these MAY be what you want.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44mag.asp

[Mikey]

Cast.  Many different offerings.  Check MidSouth, one of our sponsors.  Mikey.

[Redhawk1]

Hard cast bullets, forget them hollow point bullets. Federal makes a great 300 gr. hard cast load for the 44 Mag.

[Glanceblamm]

What kind of a Bear?...If you are talking a large brown then definately a Cast.

I have never hunted or even seen a Black Bear but JJHack (Moderator of African Hunting here) had also done a bunch of State side guiding for black bear and he reported a much greater reaction
(perhaps the interuption of the CNS, or Central Nervous System) using a common 240gr XTP hollow point verse a cast when a black was hit with one. You are going to need something to take the bears mind off of you and this would seem to be the ticket...providing that it is a black bear we are talking about.

[scott johnson]

I should have said in my post  black bear.

[Bigeasy]

On a broad side lung shot, on a bear who does not have his dander up, a good hollow point like the XTP would probably kill a little quicker - more damage.  But for self defence, when you don't have time to place your shots with precision, when the bear is pumped up, I would choose a good, hard cast semi-wadcutter, or LBT type bullet.  You want deep penetration, with the ability to break bones.  The little extra tissue damage and shock a hollow point offers is more then offset by the fact bears are not much effected by shock, and that hollow points just can't drive deep and do damage after hitting heavy bone.  In a real attack situation, you will be pumping lead as fast as possible, with the likely hood of perfect shot placement rather small.  Federal, Buffalo Bore, and Garrett come to mind as offering factory loads.

Larry

[irold]

A 300 grain XTP from the boys at Hornady.........won't bust your wallet , and I can't imagine it wouldn't put a hurtin on anything you might encounter !  OMHO !

[Redhawk1]

A 300 grain XTP from the boys at Hornady.........won't bust your wallet , and I can't imagine it wouldn't put a hurtin on anything you might encounter !  OMHO !

If your going to use the XTP's make sure they are the XTP mag's. The jackets are thicker than the standard XTP's.

[buck460XVR]

A 300 grain XTP from the boys at Hornady.........won't bust your wallet , and I can't imagine it wouldn't put a hurtin on anything you might encounter !  OMHO !

If your going to use the XTP's make sure they are the XTP mag's. The jackets are thicker than the standard XTP's.

I don't think they make the XTP Mags in .44 caliber Redhawk, I believe only in .45.

[Redhawk1]

A 300 grain XTP from the boys at Hornady.........won't bust your wallet , and I can't imagine it wouldn't put a hurtin on anything you might encounter !  OMHO !

If your going to use the XTP's make sure they are the XTP mag's. The jackets are thicker than the standard XTP's.

I don't think they make the XTP Mags in .44 caliber Redhawk, I believe only in .45.

Then a good reasojn not to use them, and use a hard cast bullet. JMHO

[Larry Gibson]

Both hard cast and fast stepping HPs that do expand kill.  One kills quicker, the fast stepping HP.  If you'r carrying a 4" revolver then the 200-210 gr HPs are very good.  However a 240 gr XTP out of my 4" Anaconda at 1200 fps expands nicely in larger animals and gives all the penetration necessary, including black bears.  The faster 200 gr HPs are better on two legged varmints. 

I do use lots of cast bullets in my .44s ( I have 4 of them) from 200 gr up through 270 gr.  I preffer the 240-250 Keith type. They've 'blown through" everything I've shot with them including balck bears.  I like to soft cast the 270 gr bullet which is a gas checked mould and HP it.  Best of both worlds.

Larry Gibson

[countryrebel]

  I vote for the 240 xtp if it's for black bear. Cast for anything bigger.

[Ak.Hiker]

It sounds like you have not spent much time shooting your 44 Magnum. Before you carry it for self defense from large animals you should give it a good testing. If you do not reload one of the best price wise load that I shoot is the factory Blazer 240 grain JHP. They are a good practise load and could be used in the field as well. Lots of good ideas for a woods carry load have been listed, lots of good choices. Their is nothing at all would be wrong with the good old Winchester 240 grain white box JSP. The JSP bullet loaded by Winchester is a pretty tough bullet and should hold up well on game the size of black bear. One of the very best JSP 44 Magnum bullets on the market is the 270 grain Speer Gold Dot. I also like the Hornady 300 grain XTP. My suggestion would be to shoot the heck out of your 44 Magnum and get real comfortable with it. Then pick a good JSP or if you like hollow points the heavy weight 300 grain XTP.

[Redhawk1]

I have read stories of people shooting black bear in the head and finding the bullets just under the hide. The did not penetrate the skull.
A JSP is better than a JHP, but nothing beats a good hard cast bullet for penetration.

[Larry Gibson]

I have read stories of people shootinf black bear in the head and finding the bullets just under the hide. The did not penetrate the skull.
A JSP is better than a JHP, but nothing beats a good hard cast bullet for penetration.

Yes, I have "read" the same thing.  However if you track it down it was some guy the new this guide who heard from one of his clients that met this guy in a bar in Anchorage who was a world renowned hunter on his first hunting trip that read it in a post on a handgun hunting forum somewhere. 

Ask yourself; if they did indeed find bullets "just under the hide (headshot) how is it the bear let them do the removal surgery?  The reason is; the bear was dead.  Now paaaaleeeeease don't tell me that some one with a .338 just happened to show up and kill the bear because that would be pretty lame. 

I have been shooting .44s and hunting with them since '68 and seriously doubt any .44 jacketed HP, even the 180s, will flattem out just nuder the hide.  I've shot too many of them into too many critters to believe that myth.  Same as now that the WFN super heavy bullets are the rage that 250 gr Keith bullets won't kill any deer/elk or bear anymore and "lack penetration".  I think too many people took Seyfried's article on killing that water buffalo in Australia to mean PETA has issued body armor to deer/elk and bears and they now require 300+ grain hard cast bullets to kill and forget the 250 gr Keith bullet along with the myrid of factory 240 gr SP were killing bears long before the 300s "became the current fad".   

When I'm in serious bear country I have a .44 on my hip loaded with 240 XTPs and feell comfortable with that. The reason I feel comfortable is, when in serious bear country, I also have a serious caliber rifle in hand.  I'm not stupid enough to believe even a 300+ gr hard cast bullet is going to stop a grizz at close range before he can possibly do serious damge to me.  However, if I do get stupid I'm quite confident that 6 well placed .44 XTPs will slow him down or interupt his train of thought.  So far I've only gone nose to nose with one grizz and both he and I had the sense to avoid a further confrontation.

Of course all this is just my opinion based on my own observations.  If you or anyone feels confident with whatever they have in their .44 from 170 gr .44 Specials for personal protection to 240 gr XTPs to 250 gr hardcast Keith's or 300+ gr WFN, when in bear country then so be it, by all means use whatever you have loaded on the bear if you have to. 

Larry Gibson

[Redhawk1]

Well Larry seeing how you know the whole story, no need in my going on about it. Sorry to inconvenience you with the story. So no use being a smart guy with your post.

I sure as hell can tell you,  "I" have shot a DEER with a 44 Mag using a 240 gr. hollow point bullet, that did not penetrate the shoulder bone "scapula bone." It just was sitting on the top of the bone all mushroomed. So I did not hear that from a guy from a guy or anything else like that. From my own experience. So yes I would believe that a 44 Mag hollow point would not penetrate a skull of a big bear.

But no need telling you anything, you already know it all.

[efremtags]

Scott,

from experience in a shorter barreled woods gun for self protection, a hardcast is best. Even down to 900 fps, it will penetrate almost anything, definately enough to get it off of you to save your life.

The good hollow points (300GR hornady XP) are good huntign round, I have used them on deer, and it too would be effective most of the time. At point blank into hard bone, it may or may not penetrate. That is the nature of a hollow point.  They do kill quicker on lung/shoulder shots. Expanding rounds do more damage typicaly at the expense for less penetration.

Heavy hot ammo may be difficult to control in a short light revolver. 240Gr is best compromise.

[irold]

Hate to throw a bone in the soup , but here goes...."I" have seen a 270 gr 45cal. hard cast punch straight through the intended quarry ....the intended quarry ran off not injured enough to care......granted the bullet placement may have been a little off.....it was supposed to have been a lung/rib shot....for me unless I'm going for Cape Buff ....give me a "good" XTP

[Larry Gibson]

Well Larry seeing how you know the whole story, no need in my going on about it. Sorry to inconvenience you with the story. So no use being a smart guy with your post.

I sure as hell can tell you,  "I" have shot a DEER with a 44 Mag using a 240 gr. hollow point bullet, that did not penetrate the shoulder bone "scapula bone." It just was sitting on the top of the bone all mushroomed. So I did not hear that from a guy from a guy or anything else like that. From my own experience. So yes I would believe that a 44 Mag hollow point would not penetrate a skull of a big bear.

But no need telling you anything, you already know it all.

Redhawk1

Now why are you taking all this personal?  This is just a discussion and I didn't tell you you were wrong.  I believe I said the heavy cast bullets will kill.  Get a grip (that's a pun) and just keep it a discussion.  Don't know what 240 gr bullets you were using but obviously not good ones (not a personal attack there just an observation made off your statements).  XTPs get criticised many times for too much penetration and not enough expansion. However I believe that is what they are designed for.  I know you really like the heavy hardcast bullets but that doesn't mean everything else is crap and won't work.  Like I said; use whatever you have loaded on the bear because it ain't going to let you load in the "best" load for that long odds of a a bear attack.  These days in the lower 48 the odds are you will need something for two legged varmints instead of a bear.  That heavy 300+ gr WFN will do the job but its probably not the best for that situation.  Like I said, if you run into a pissed off bear you use what you have.

Larry Gibson

[gstewart44]

I have never hunted bear but I do hunt a lot of big hogs....some with a very uncongenial disposition.   I managed to obtain two cases of the old (now discontinued) Winchester Black Talons, 250 gr HP in 44 mag.   I used them in my SRH for two years.  The first year I got one small (70 lb) pig with a shot just below the ear at 25 yds.   Also got a medium size doe with a double lung shot through the ribs at 35 yds.    Good performance.  Nothing unusual.

The next year I was out deer hunting and popped a big (for my neck of the woods - 185 lb) six point.    Distance was 17 yds - slightly quartering away.    The Black Talon hit the near shoulder, and the buck dropped.   He was paralyzed from a bone fragment hitting the  spine.   I finished him off and took him back for processing. 

What I found was the Black Talon,  perfectly mushroomed to .75"  punched through the scapula and into the front part of the backstrap busting up a vertebra.....found just next to the spine.    Penetration was no more than 6 inches.   It dropped the deer (lucky) but in no way was a penetrating wound like a hard cast would be. 

I stopped using the Black Talon after that hunt in the SRH and only use it now in my Ruger or Marlin Carbines.  The faster velocity from these barrels gets the most performance from the BT's.   

My load for the SRH now is a Hornady 300 gr XTP or a hardcast swc over a stout load of 2400.   I have only recovered two of the 300gr XTPs and both were perfectly mushroomed to about .60" after traversing lengthwise through a 300+lb hog.    All others were pass throughs.   

For my 2 cents worth I'll stick with the XTP or hardcast when using the SRH.

[efremtags]

irold, I don't get the analogy. Bad placement is bad blacement. I have seen bad placement with a hollowpoint result in lost game, as well as rifles, slugs, muzzleloaders and arrrows for the matter.

I defy someone to tell me that using any particular, well suited load with porpoer placement doesn't work.

I have personaly used or been with someone usign hardcase on deer and boar upto 200lbs. I have never seen one shot well go more than 50 yards. I've seen deer run further when shot with SP rifle bullets.

I can guarantee this, if you take a quarter away shot and miss to one side and hit hip, with a hollowpoint, that is a lost animal, with a HC it is likely dead, becasue it will drive 2 feet to the vitals. Happens all the time, animal begins to move at time of shot. The goal isn't to kill the animal instantly, it is too kill it humanely. Hollow points have their place, I use them. Hardcast's are more predictable and have a wider performance band. This is all off the point of the original topic.

Larry, I have also seen pure soft lead (muzzleloader and 12g slugs) and light for caliber hollowpoints (usually 357 125s idiots tried to hunt with) stop at the brisket and at the shoulder bones, which by definition is stoped just under the skin. these woulded animals were later followed up with another gun and killed. Not sure what your referene of this scenario being bull is based on. I am sure there are many other people that can testify to this on forum.

[Redhawk1]

Well Larry seeing how you know the whole story, no need in my going on about it. Sorry to inconvenience you with the story. So no use being a smart guy with your post.

I sure as hell can tell you,  "I" have shot a DEER with a 44 Mag using a 240 gr. hollow point bullet, that did not penetrate the shoulder bone "scapula bone." It just was sitting on the top of the bone all mushroomed. So I did not hear that from a guy from a guy or anything else like that. From my own experience. So yes I would believe that a 44 Mag hollow point would not penetrate a skull of a big bear.

But no need telling you anything, you already know it all.

Redhawk1

Now why are you taking all this personal?  This is just a discussion and I didn't tell you you were wrong.  I believe I said the heavy cast bullets will kill.  Get a grip (that's a pun) and just keep it a discussion.  Don't know what 240 gr bullets you were using but obviously not good ones (not a personal attack there just an observation made off your statements).  XTPs get criticised many times for too much penetration and not enough expansion. However I believe that is what they are designed for.  I know you really like the heavy hardcast bullets but that doesn't mean everything else is crap and won't work.  Like I said; use whatever you have loaded on the bear because it ain't going to let you load in the "best" load for that long odds of a a bear attack.  These days in the lower 48 the odds are you will need something for two legged varmints instead of a bear.  That heavy 300+ gr WFN will do the job but its probably not the best for that situation.  Like I said, if you run into a pissed off bear you use what you have.

Larry Gibson

I took it personal, because you basically said I my story was a myth.  I have been handgun hunting for over 27 years. I have tried a bunch of hollow point bullets while hunting, and seen first hand the results, I was not impressed in the least.  I would rather use a JSP over any hollow point bullet. Have I kill game with JHP bullets, sure I have.

As for cast bullets, I don't need a big heavy hard cast bullet to get the job done. A good hard cast bullet will out penetrate any JHP or JSP bullet out there. Shot placement is also key when shooting game. A hard cast bullet will bust through bone, where the JHP will not.

If I have to shoot a pissed off bear, I want the bullets to penetrate and get to the vitals or brain.

[Mikey]

"A good hard cast bullet will out penetrate any JHP or JSP bullet out there. Shot placement is also key when shooting game. A hard cast bullet will bust through bone, where the JHP will not.  If I have to shoot a pissed off bear, I want the bullets to penetrate and get to the vitals or brain".

That's a clear enough statement, why don't we leave it at that.  Mikey.

[GradyL41]

both will work  --for jhp I like Gold dots--xtp is also fine ///cast is my normal choice -as I cast

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I have also seen pure soft lead (muzzleloader and 12g slugs) and light for caliber hollowpoints (usually 357 125s idiots tried to hunt with) stop at the brisket and at the shoulder bones, which by definition is stoped just under the skin. these woulded animals were later followed up with another gun and killed. Not sure what your referene of this scenario being bull is based on. I am sure there are many other people that can testify to this on forum.

I'm not sure of what muzzle loaders or 12 ga slugs you're using but I'm sure there is always a case or two of failure.  However I'll bet there's a hell of a lot more successful users of such.  Also you might want to remember that we're talking self defence against 2 legged varmints and maybe bears here, not hogs.  Question; what is the most often recommended weapon and ammo to use when in real bear country (Alaska)?  The answer is a shotgun with slugs.  That is recommended because it works.

I'm also not sure of what .357s with 125 gr SP/HPs has to do with a discussion of .44s.

I do agree with your statement of; "Bad placement is bad blacement. I have seen bad placement with a hollowpoint result in lost game, as well as rifles, slugs, muzzleloaders and arrrows for the matter.  I defy someone to tell me that using any particular, well suited load with porpoer placement doesn't work."  I agree that bad placement is a recipe for failure regardless of the bullet used.  It's mostly where you shoot them that really counts.

Larry GIbson

[Larry Gibson]

I took it personal, because you basically said I my story was a myth.  I have been handgun hunting for over 27 years. I have tried a bunch of hollow point bullets while hunting, and seen first hand the results, I was not impressed in the least.  I would rather use a JSP over any hollow point bullet. Have I kill game with JHP bullets, sure I have.

As for cast bullets, I don't need a big heavy hard cast bullet to get the job done. A good hard cast bullet will out penetrate any JHP or JSP bullet out there. Shot placement is also key when shooting game. A hard cast bullet will bust through bone, where the JHP will not.

If I have to shoot a pissed off bear, I want the bullets to penetrate and get to the vitals or brain.

Redhawk1

If all you're concerned about is "pissed off bears" then penetration is paramount if the bear is really a big one and I certainly agree with you.  That is why the XTP, particularly the Hornady factory loads as Scott is not a reloader, was the general recommendation from many here who recomment the SP/HPs instead of hard cast.  How many stores is he going to walk into and find a box of Garret's sitting on the shelf?  How many stores will have the Hornady' XTPs?  Probably about 99% more than will have the Garret's. And what if he can't get any Garret's or Hornady's then he should leave the .44 home and go unarmed into bear country?  No he shouldn't. That's why I said he would, like you or me, use what he has or can get.  I recently spent some time in Alaska out in the Donaaly training area and carried Magteck 240 gr SPs in my 4" Anaconda.  Why? because that's what the company bought for me.  Didn't see any bears but there were lots of moose and bulls were wanting to F**K or fight and I wasn't interested in either, particularly the first!  I did not feel at all "undergunned" with the Magtech ammo as it performs well and gives good penetration.   I certainly didn't leave the Anaconda in my room in Delta Junction because I didn't have 300+ gr hardcast bullets.  That was my point.  Also the idea that only hardcast heavy 300+ gr bullets out of a .44 magnum will kill bears is, in fact, myth.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Like GradyL41 says; "both will work"....so take your pick, practice with it and use what you've got or can get at the time.  However, don't go into serious bear country without your .44 magnum just because you can't get 300+ gr hardcast Garret ammo for your .44 magnum.  The Hornady XTPs and the Magtech 240 SPs will do just fine.

That is my advice to Scott.

Larry Gibson