Author Topic: Carrierless 209 Breech Plug for Huntsman/Sidekick, Blackhorn 209 Compatable!  (Read 29823 times)

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Offline kody

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 How does this measurement affect the closure of the action and the headspacing?  Hubbard sent me a plug that wouldn't allow the action to close and lock until .002" were removed from the forward end of the plug. At that point it was tight at both ends, and the action closed with .001 clearance and full latching.  Hubbard mentioned that the diversity in NEF's tolerances were the reason he couldn't continue . Busta, do I have all of that right? If that is similar to Nick's problem isn't it a matter of customizing your plug to your gun? If that is the case,would it be right to standardize the plugs and take the chance that none would be either too short or too long?   Ken

Offline bubba

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I received my breech plugs today.  I will send tham back tomorrow priority mail Thanks Nick they look good. 


Bubba
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Offline Nick Allen

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The guns will not close with a primer installed. We had some mis comunication and the target dimension was indeed hit. It is just that it was hit without a o-ring and primer installed. The target dimension ( after compresion)  should measure 1.370" the plugs measure this right now.

Please send them back whatever method you like. I am terribly sorry about this and I appreciate your understanding.

Thanks
Nick :)

Offline bubba

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Like you said Nick crap happens.  You have been bustign your butt to do these things and I for one appreciate it.  Both o fmine threaded into th gun fine until I closed the action with a primer in it as Nick stated.  If I had a lathe, I would turn them myself and save you the grief. 
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Offline LONGTOM

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Got mine yesterday and will send it back tomorrow.
No problem, plenty of time untill next season.


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Offline Busta

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Someone once asked me, "How long will an o-ring last" in a Metrics Unlimited Breech Plug? Well, yesterday I tried to find out, but I still don't know the answer. I started with a new #60 o-ring that was bought at Lowes in a 10 pack for $1.97. I have other brands, but wanted to use a brand that nearly everyone should be able to get locally. There are several manufacturers of o-rings and several types of materials used to make them. Some will obviously be better than others, but this test was done with a common o-ring mentioned above.

I started with a 7/8" Metrics Unlimited breech plug that I tweeked to work in my Huntsman. The others will be going back to Nick for his fix. After getting the plug exactly how I wanted it I fired several different types of primers through it, a dozen of Federal 209A, CCI MAG, Winchester W209, and Winchester WML209 primers altogether. I fired 3 of each without powder before taking it out back to test it on the range.

So starting with those 12 without powder, I was planning on shooting one to failure. I guess I didn't give myself enough time? I shot 38 loads of 80 grains of Blackhorn 209 powder with several different types of bullets and sabot combinations, and was still unable to make the o-ring fail. I was also conducting another tests simultaneously, with different .429"-.430" bullets and sabots. Because I was getting variable wind gusts very frequently all the testing was done at 50 yards to reduce those effects as best as possible. The other tests were for sabot consistency, and bullet integrity. ALL loads had perfect ignition, even though some of the sabot combinations loaded so easy I hardly had to push on the range rod. I did give each load a firm hit on the range rod once seated. NO SWABBING all day long!

The o-ring started with a I.D. of .110", a O.D. of .250", and a thickness of .070". After the test with 12 primer only, and 38 powder loads of 80 grains of Blackhorn 209, the o-ring shows signs of being washed out in the I.D. as expected, but the O.D. actually grew by about .002" an the thickness only lost about .002". Remember, some o-rings may last longer while some may not last as long, so use this test for reference only. Always have a spare o-ring or two with you at all times while at the range or especially while hunting. On the 35th shot, when I removed the primer, the o-ring came out with it, luckily it fell out on my bench so I could find it easily. I put it back in and it stayed put for shots 36-38. If you were in a hunting situation, and it fell out on the ground, a black o-ring would not be very easy to find.


Before and after.



The primers themselves from the top. Some of these actually leaked between the primer and the battery cup, but the o-ring did it's job of keeping blowback gasses from leaking past on all but one primer, it was the sixth primer under load during the test. The primer is in the back row in the second picture 5th from the left or 6th from the right, the leakage was very minor. Notice how clean the other 37 primers are. The last 8 primers are in the front row of the second picture, and the 38th one looks as clean as the 1st. I think the one that leaked is a fluke because it did not happen again during the test. Some of the primers did require a little help removing, but I will polish the pocket a little before the next range trip. When I do get a stubborn primer, I slide the capper end of a CVA 209 capper/decapper (cost me $4) over the primer rim and just pull straight back, real quick and easy.




Sneak peek at the 7/8" MU plug. They did turn out very nice with a deeper hex head.




The following target is Groups 1-5 (G1-G5), I didn't measure any of the groups, but all were plenty good enough for hunting purposes. Again, ALL groups were shot at 50 yards with 80 grains of Blackhorn 209 powder, and Winchester WML209 primers. I will mention the sabot/bullet combination for each group.
G1 is in the center in white, these are the new Hornady .430" FTX in 265 grain in a green Harvester Crush Rib Sabot.
G2 lower right in orange, Hornady .430" HP/XTP 300 grain in a green Harvester Crush Rib Sabot.
G3 lower left in blue, Nosler .429" Partition-HG 250 grain in supplied Olive Green Sabot.
G4 upper left in yellow, Speer .429" Gold Dot SP 270 grain in a green Harvester Crush Rib Sabot.
G5 upper right in pink, Traditions .450" APB100 (Parker Ballistic Extreme) 275 grain in supplied black 3 petal EZ Load Sabot.



This next target was to test the green Knight High Pressure Sabots, and compare to the green Harvester Crush Rib Sabot, especially with the new Hornady FTX Bullets. The groups were opening up so for G10 I went back to the green Harvester Crush Rib to see if any thing was different, I think you will agree that it MIGHT be the sabot?
G6 center in white, Hornady .430" FTX in 265 grain in a green Knight High Pressure Sabot.
G7 lower right in orange, Hornady .430" HP/XTP 300 grain in a green Knight High Pressure Sabot.
G8 lower left in blue, Speer .429" Gold Dot SP 270 grain in a green Knight High Pressure Sabot.
G9 upper left in yellow, Hornady .430" FTX in 265 grain in a green Knight High Pressure Sabot.
G10 upper right in pink, Hornady .430" FTX in 265 grain in a green Harvester Crush Rib Sabot.



The last part of my test was to run some bullets through my own personal torture test. This test is with 80 grains of powder at 50 yards shot into a white silica sand filled heavy plastic bag. Keep in mind, this test may not have ANY relevance to what these bullet will do on living/breathing animals, but it lets me know what the bullet is made of so to speak. I want to know what a bullet may do if it encounters heavy bone, and this test is almost as brutal as shooting a bullet into a cement block. Several bullets dont fare well, and others such as the all copper Barnes do not expand well due to their need for fluid to open properly. Each test bullet is in front of the saboted and non saboted specimen.

From L-R:
Speer .429" Gold Dot SP 270 grain.
Nosler .429" Partition-HG 250 grain.
Hornady .430" HP/XTP 300 grain.
Hornady .430" FTX in 265 grain.
Traditions .450" APB100 (Parker Ballistic Extreme) 275 grain.



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Offline LONGTOM

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Man Busta:
They all look like great loads so far.
If they will stay close at 100 I think we have some winners here.

The very first group-G1 I only see two holes.
Is one in the white or did one cut the other?

G10 is outstanding for sure.

I would think any one of these would be more that agreeable with most shooters out there.

I have been using WML primers in a TRADITIONS PURSUIT XLT with 100gr loose PIONEER powder with TC 200gr SHOCK WAVE bullets with the supplied blue sabots.

I hope my Huntsman will like these bullets as they do a great job on deer.
If I have to change to one of your loads and can get this kind of accuracy I won't be disapointed.

Very good report.


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LONGTOM 9-25-07

Offline Busta

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LONGTOM,

Yes, the hole 2" high/dead center in G1 is slightly elongated, it don't show up as well in the pic, but two went through that hole.

I should have also mentioned, the WML209 primer may not work well for Blackhorn 209 in ANY factory breech plug, but I have never had a hangfire or delay with ANY 209 primer in the Metrics Unlimited plug.

If anyone needs a 209 capper/decapper, this one works good. I just use the capper (left) side to remove a stubborn primer if needed. Just slide it over the primer rim and lift straight back.



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Offline coop2564

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Wow look what happens when u dont visit the site in a while and miracle! Going to have to get a 5/8" coming sent Nick a email.
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Offline bubba

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I go tmy two 7/8 back today.  Actually first chance to check the mail in a few.  Fiot perfect looking forward to shooting them tomorrow.  Good job Nick these are sweet. 

Bubba
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline fjm03

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In central California Lowe's does not carry #60 o-rings. We do, however, have a slick, on-line warehouse for everything industrial: McMaster-Carr. At mcmaster.com the part # for a 50 pack of #60 (1/4x1/8x1/16), viton (mil-spec), o-rings is 1201T16. The 50 pack is  $4.85. About the same for shipping by USPS Priority Mail. All shipments are next day. McMaster has a wide range of o-rings in the #60 size categorized by chemical and temperature resistance. The Viton compound is mil-spec for the AR15 gas seal o-ring.

Offline Busta

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fjm03,

Thanks for that information. I know there are several types of material that I have yet to test, but that one looks like it might be just what we are looking for. At least it is designed to do something similar to what we are doing with them. They just might hold up a little longer than the Lowes variety.
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Offline bubba

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I went out today and shot my sidekick with the new plug.  it was great. I shot some triple 7 primers as well as some remington 209-4 primers.  I shoot loose triple 7 in fffg 90 grains and a 250 grain lead bullet I mold mysefl in a harvestor green crush rib sabot. The gun shot as well as it ever did and I have a 5 shot clover leaf at 50 yards.  The primers came out as clean as they went into the plug.  the problem I ran into was I had to pry every primer out after it was shot.  I did not have my primer with me, so I had to use A screwdriver to get them out.  I am thinking I will ream out the primer pocket so slightly.  It was worse with the 209-4 primers.  I also found and maybe it was just me, there sure seemed to be a lot more boom and presure going down the barrel, and I may consider cutting back my charge a bit and see what happens.  Overall I am very pleased. 
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline Nick Allen

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Bubba, if you deepen the pocket about .005" I bet it will cure the sticky primer issue. In fact, try and shoot a few rounds without the o-ring. If is does not stick like this, then the pocket needs to be a touch deeper. The plugs are on the high side to try and fit all of the varriances in the guns.

Please report back

Nick :)

Offline bubba

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Thanks Nick. I will try wothout the oring.  I was gonna today but let it go for now. I will be back at the range next weekend and see how it works out and let you know
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline Busta

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bubba,

Nick is right on the money, remove about .005" of material out of the bottom of the primer pocket and try it. If that is not enough, maybe another .005" for your particular rifle. I have been working with a few plugs at different depths and levels of o-ring compression, the headspace on some of these rifles can vary .005" easily, and primers another .005" to .010". Depth of the primer pocket will be determined by the type and length of the primer you are using.

The factory 7/8" plugs OAL with primer and carrier can vary from 1.362" to 1.370", my 2003 Huntsman has a lock-up of 1.373" while my 2004 Sidekick locks up at 1.370". Other rifles will probably vary from a few thousandths either side of my examples. The lock-up length of your rifle will probably be in the neighborhood of 1.370", +/- .005", if you add about .020" of o-ring compression to that, that is where you want to be for a pre-compressed OAL. EXAMPLE: You lock-up at 1.370", you want a pre-compressed OAL of 1.390" with o-ring and primer inserted, for .020" compression. You could be as much as 1.395" or as little as 1.385" for optimum OAL before compression.

I have found, too much o-ring compression will cause sticky primers and washes out the o-ring faster. In this case, .015" to .020" of compression gives better results than .030". I also discovered that the more you are compressing the o-ring it actually shrinks the I.D., causing more back pressure and swelling primers. This also does not let the o-ring expand upon ignition, helping to put rearward pressure on the primer that facilitates easier removal once the action is opened.

If you have a set of calipers, can you measure your pre-compressed OAL with o-ring and your brand of primer? The Remington Kleanbore primers work better in tighter fitting plugs, and remove a little easier than the 777 primers in my experience. The Remington 209-4 primers also have a larger opening, so if you are overcompressing the o-ring, it will compound the swelling.

If you get it the right length for your rifle and primer, you will love the results. It is much easier to remove .005" out of the primer pocket than to add it. It is just too bad we have such a wide range to work with, but that is the reality of these rifles.
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Offline bubba

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I will caliper it tonight.  hey I dont expect perfection by any means.  I am very pleased. You can have perfection when the tolerances on the rifle is far from perfect.  I dont see a big problem with removing a small amount in the plug either. It was my exact thought yesterday. Plus I was thinking I have two plugs two guns.  Next time I go, I will switch them up and maybe get lucky before I start surgery lol.  Anyway like I was saying I am more than pleased in fact I am very happy with the set up.  Anyone thinking of buying one, do not hesitate it is well worth it. I was amazed at removing clean primers after they were shot and the amount of missing crud in the action. Now my encore on the other hand all I will say is geesh.
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Offline Doug B.

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If additional material removal in the new plug is deemed necessary, would you pass along some advise as to how to go about it?

Just got my plug in the mail today and was I tickled when it appeared as though my action closed perfectly with the 209A primer installed. (I can only imagine the smile on my face!) Time to open up the new bottle of BH 209 and give 'er a first time whirl this weekend with this combination. Only then will I know if additional material needs to be removed from the bottom of the primer cup to aid in primer removal.

Thanks for the help...I'm pretty pumped! 
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Offline eod20

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is it to late to get one of the 5/8" plugs    has nick already ended the production of them?    and how much are they?    also - would the 7/8" work in my older .58 cal huntsman   i want to standardize 1 ingnition source with my BP rifles    at the moment i am using a little of everything - #11, musket caps and 209 primers
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Offline Busta

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is it to late to get one of the 5/8" plugs    has nick already ended the production of them?    and how much are they?    also - would the 7/8" work in my older .58 cal huntsman   i want to standardize 1 ingnition source with my BP rifles    at the moment i am using a little of everything - #11, musket caps and 209 primers

eod20,

I think Nick might have a few more 5/8" plugs, but you would need to call or e-mail him to find out for sure.

You just asked the $64,000 dollar question, I would also like to know the exact same thing, but I don't have an older Huntsman. If anyone that has one of the newer 7/8" plugs and an older huntsman, could you please check for interchangability? I have never heard of anyone using the newer NEF Plug in the older Huntsmans, but you just never know, maybe nobody ever tried?

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Offline Busta

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If additional material removal in the new plug is deemed necessary, would you pass along some advise as to how to go about it?

Just got my plug in the mail today and was I tickled when it appeared as though my action closed perfectly with the 209A primer installed. (I can only imagine the smile on my face!) Time to open up the new bottle of BH 209 and give 'er a first time whirl this weekend with this combination. Only then will I know if additional material needs to be removed from the bottom of the primer cup to aid in primer removal.

Thanks for the help...I'm pretty pumped! 

Doug B,

You might not have to do a thing, and I hope you don't, but if you do it can be accomplished easily by hand with a drill bit. You can change your headspace by .005" to .013" just by merely changing primers. The Winchester W209 primers can measure as much as .305", and the Cheddite can be as little as .292", I haven't got any Fiocchi (SP?) primers so I dont know their length. If anyone has any Fiocchi 209 primers, could you please measure a few and post the results? All the other American made primers fall in between the .292" to .305" measurements, most average in the .295" to .300 range. I did a primer length chart a while back, it is either at the bottom of page 1 or the top of page 2.

Now I understand why H&R/NEF had such loose tolerances on the primer carriers, the primer carriers measure about .310", the longest primers I have found are .305", I still have .008" and .010" of headspace between myprimer carriers ans standing breech on my two rifles with 7/8" plugs. Now throw a .292" primer in that .310" primer carrier plus the extra .010" of headspace an you have .028" of total gap, if you have a .305" primer you shorten the gap to .015". The next rifle you pick up might lock up very tight on the primer carrier then your gap may only be .005". Just the nature of the beast we deal with, unfortunately.
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Offline Nick Allen

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Thanks for clearing that up Busta. If the primer pocket needs deepening a 6.2mm drill bit works best. Simply hold the plug in one hand and drill lightly with the other. You can either use a drill motor or put the drill bit in a pin vise or tap handle and do it by hand. .005" is not very much material at all, so it will go very quickly.

We do indeed, have a whole bunch of the 5/8" plugs left, so please feel free to call me @ 1-800-638-7986. Mon.-Fri. 8:30am-4:00pm EST.


Nick :)

Offline eod20

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thank you nick   i will give you a call tomarrow with an order     how much and what manner of payment would you prefer?
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fjm03, I ordered 50 "O" rings from McMaster-Carr yesterday and got them today!  Superior service.  Thanks for the tip.  I'm a hundred miles from nowhere.  It's nice to get them so easily and so very reasonably.  Thanks.

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Offline LONGTOM

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Installed my 7/8" plug in my Huntsman today.
Screwed in nicely.
Tried a couple of Win 209 primers in it first.
They were a little tight to remove.
Shot two rounds with 100gr loose Pioneer powder with a 200gr TC Shookwave and the supplied blue sabot.
These are the first two shots I have fired in this barrel.
Didn't try for a group, just wanted to see how it felt.
The primers were a little easier to remove.
They only required my fingers to get them out.
I think they will only get better with use.
Now to scope it and see what it will do at 100!

Thanks NICK!!!


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My thanks to those who have, are and will stand for mine!
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Offline eod20

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i ordered a 5/8" for the 50 cal from nick today     looking forward to playing with it soon    and we talked about the 7/8' in the old 70's .58 huntsmans    nick is sending me one to see how they fit    will let everyone know as soon as i find out    i think this will work out great i can now standardize with 1 ignition method instead of all 3 i have now,  #11, musket and 209
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Offline Doug B.

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I fired my Huntsman today a total of six times. First four with "O" ring installed, could not remove primers with just my fingers. Required tools. Last two.....no "O" ring. Primers removed "easily", some resistance, but did come out with fingers. Blow back as you guessed was considerable.

Being that I would like to continue using the Fed. 209A primers in conjunction with the #60 "O" ring, my only alternative would be to drill out the additional .005" in the plug beneath the primer. Question: What kind of problem might I encounter with just a drill bit having the normal "taper cut" rather than having a perfect 90 degree angle immediately under the primer in relation to the "side wall" off the primer pocket? Or is this even a problem? Might the "O" ring not have enough "flat base" to keep it in it's proper position using a standard drill bit?

Or am I blowing this out of proportion?

Just wanted some guidance before I undertake something that I don't know a great deal about.

Thanks for the help! 

P.S....Gun shoots great! Nice cloverleafs at 60 yards with Hornady 240gr. XTP sabots over 85 gr. of BH209. This is definitely a SUPER combination for my rifle. ;D 
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Offline bubba

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After some measuring, I drilled both mine out tonight.  I plan to try them out this weekend with the orings and see what happens. I expect it will make all the difference.
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Offline Nick Allen

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Doug, don't be afraid to drill the pocket with just a drill. The taper is actually desired, as it helps funnel the flame to the powder. The whole idea in this, is to reduce the compression on the o-ring.

Don't be afraid to try other primers as well. You will be suprised as to how well the the lower power primers light the BH 209 in this plug.

Nick :)

Offline Busta

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I have found some other style o-rings, some with a square cross section, and some with what they call a quad cross section. One of these may be a better alternative than the round cross section. I have some part numbers and will make a list to check out. You can go to the McMasters site, go to o-rings, then enter 1/4" O.D., then click on round, square, or quad. You will only want to consider the 1/4" O.D. x 1/8" I.D. x 1/16" thick.

I will try some of the quad, and maybe some of the square as soon as I figure out which ones I want to order. Lots of different materials/colors/hardness for the round o-rings too. Some for as little as $1.87 per 100, and the Kalrez® Perfluoroelastomer for as much as $28.91 each. :o


Cross section of the quad, going to try that one for sure.


http://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=1jsmrg


Doug,

Like Nick says, don't be afraid of Rem Kleanbore or Win 777 primers, I have never had a hang/delayed fire with ANY primer and BH209 in this plug, and I have fired a lot of BH209 loads out of the 5/8" and 7/8" plugs with 8 different primers.
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