Author Topic: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?  (Read 1853 times)

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Offline buckslayer

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I've got to many but never enough!!!! :eek:

Offline EsoxLucius

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2009, 08:59:35 AM »
It's an old poll, but what the heck, vote early and vote often.

The 2nd Amendment does not give the right to keep and bear arms.  It recognizes the sanctity of an unalienable, god given right that inherently exists and no government can grant or take away.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 09:10:03 AM »
That's a great point , when it was written we lived free , The king was gone . The new govt. was established to protect what existed for the free men . Free men at the time owned weapons , why would they give them up ? They had just run the most powerful king in the world off why would they give up their new found freedom or the means by which they had gained it ? It appears that king has spent his time since his army and navy were sent packing building up sleeper cells in this country just waiting to go to the polls and take away our right to protection . We must all be aware of these anti american sleeper cells !
THINK ABOUT IT ! Why would an American give up any right ?
I can't think of a reason either !
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Offline torpedoman

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2009, 12:06:42 PM »
It's an old poll, but what the heck, vote early and vote often.

The 2nd Amendment does not give the right to keep and bear arms.  It recognizes the sanctity of an unalienable, god given right that inherently exists and no government can grant or take away.
+1 go to the head of the class. This is'nt even a question to anyone who can read english.
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Offline onesonek

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2009, 03:53:21 AM »
Indeed!!!!

Offline rparsons934

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2009, 04:06:50 AM »
It's an old poll, but what the heck, vote early and vote often.

The 2nd Amendment does not give the right to keep and bear arms.  It recognizes the sanctity of an unalienable, god given right that inherently exists and no government can grant or take away.
+1 go to the head of the class.

I would also say go to the head of the class. ;D ;D
****The Second Amendment.....You dont know you need it until they come and try to take it away****

Offline goater

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2009, 10:16:44 AM »
Can I own/possess a shoulder fired stinger missile ... why or why not????

Offline kitchawan kid

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2009, 10:27:32 AM »
What I understand is that citizens should be armed with what the individual solder carried,not a squad.That would be the AR-15.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2009, 10:40:38 AM »
Can I own/possess a shoulder fired stinger missile ... why or why not????

Yep. If you limit it to whatever the infantry can use then you are empowering the government to infringe a right that the constitution recognized as a natural right, and not within their authority to modify.

If you want to spend the $ on a stinger missle, go for it, and may all that $ go to enterprising Americans working hard in a free market economy. If you want to fire that bad bear on your land, go for it. If anyone else is harmed or their property damaged because you used it, stand by as they will exercise their rights as well.
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2009, 01:22:35 PM »
Can I own/possess a shoulder fired stinger missile ... why or why not????

Answer: No you can't.
Why: Becasue it's against the law.
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Offline goater

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2009, 01:27:43 PM »
"Answer: No you can't.
Why: Becasue it's against the law."

Which "arms" does the Constitution allow? .. where is the line drawn?
Laws must be Constitutional

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2009, 01:49:21 PM »
Quote
Laws must be Constitutional

now that isnt something that is generally accepted as valid in washington any more
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

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Offline Cabin4

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2009, 01:55:56 PM »
"Answer: No you can't.
Why: Becasue it's against the law."

Which "arms" does the Constitution allow? .. where is the line drawn?
Laws must be Constitutional

1934 firearms act.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2009, 04:04:08 PM »
Are we having an "ought to" conversation? I didn't get the impression that goater is seriously considering the purchase of a Stinger. I think he's trying to start a discussion over the issue ... I may be mistaken, it's been known to happen.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2009, 04:10:18 PM »
"Answer: No you can't.
Why: Becasue it's against the law."

Which "arms" does the Constitution allow? .. where is the line drawn?
Laws must be Constitutional

The constitution makes no restrictions on type, size, caliber, lethality or appearance of arms, because it recognized that the right to bear arms transcends it's own jurisdiction.

All subsequent laws are infringements of natural law, not the Constitution. To say otherwise is to give the Constitution more authority than it gave itself.
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2009, 04:16:06 PM »
Are we having an "ought to" conversation? I didn't get the impression that goater is seriously considering the purchase of a Stinger. I think he's trying to start a discussion over the issue ... I may be mistaken, it's been known to happen.

I get that. We are peeling the onion, so to speak.
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Offline Lead Poison

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2009, 04:45:07 PM »
"Answer: No you can't.
Why: Becasue it's against the law."

Which "arms" does the Constitution allow? .. where is the line drawn?
Laws must be Constitutional

The constitution makes no restrictions on type, size, caliber, lethality or appearance of arms, because it recognized that the right to bear arms transcends it's own jurisdiction.

All subsequent laws are infringements of natural law, not the Constitution. To say otherwise is to give the Constitution more authority than it gave itself.

Nelson I totally agree!

Offline Cabin4

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2009, 04:50:57 PM »
As much as I would like to agree, the fact is the constitution also enables regulation by the states.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2009, 07:18:51 PM »
Cabin4,

10th amendment ... Yes, but if the premise of the 2nd amendment is that the right to bear arms is above any right granted by the constitution, then can it truly grant powers to the states that it itself has no authority over? The whole document was written on an assumption that there are certain inalienable rights endowed by power greater than government.

Doesn't change reality, true. But worth thinking about.
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Offline bilmac

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2009, 01:41:38 AM »
Those who say that we only need a few more "common sense" laws should be told that we already have some common sense restrictions on our God given rights that most of us have agreed to for a long time now and that we have given enough of our rights away already. I believe that some of the silly ass reporters out there think that there are no restrictions on gun ownership.

It's too bad we aren't on offense now making the liberals justify why we shouldn't be allowed to own crew served weapons.

Offline Cabin4

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2009, 04:08:01 AM »
Cabin4,

10th amendment ... Yes, but if the premise of the 2nd amendment is that the right to bear arms is above any right granted by the constitution, then can it truly grant powers to the states that it itself has no authority over? The whole document was written on an assumption that there are certain inalienable rights endowed by power greater than government.

Doesn't change reality, true. But worth thinking about.

I agree. How do we answer the question? Lets take a wild example becasue they are usually a good place to start. Should I be able to purchase a tank busting shoulder fired rocket launcher? It's an arm!
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2009, 06:09:20 AM »
Yes you SHOULD be able to cuz you might one day need it. The Second Amendment is NOT about hunting it is about defending your freedoms from your own government trying to take them from you and they are working at a feverish pace right now to do just that.

We should and our founding fathers meant for us to be able to own any and all 'arms' they government might so that when the time comes as they knew it would we'd be able to defend our rights.


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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2009, 06:32:33 AM »
Quote
We should and our founding fathers meant for us to be able to own any and all 'arms' they government might

They have long since "boiled that frog" little by little as I said before they will keep turning up the heat until the water under us is boiling and We are done!
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2009, 08:46:43 AM »
Yes you SHOULD be able to cuz you might one day need it. The Second Amendment is NOT about hunting it is about defending your freedoms from your own government trying to take them from you and they are working at a feverish pace right now to do just that.

We should and our founding fathers meant for us to be able to own any and all 'arms' they government might so that when the time comes as they knew it would we'd be able to defend our rights.

I think the problem might be is that modern weapons are far more significant & deadly then cannons & muskets. So if I could procure say, a long range missle, tank, nuks, warship, etc. It would be covered under the 2nd amendment? So I agree, as written, I do beleive it is. The issue of course will be is it realistic?
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2009, 10:11:19 AM »
Yes, and cannon & muskets were far more deadly than bows & arrows, which were far more deadly than sticks & rocks ... Using that logic, rifled barrels should never been allowed to exist.

But potential for lethality cannot be used to infringe a natural right. Should my right to life be infringed because as a 6'4" 225# male with significant lethal combat training and anger issues I represent a greater threat than someone else? Some congressman have already suggested that returning combat veterans represent a threat to society and should be monitored. Should my right to property be infringed so that I cannot own an airplane lest I fly it into a building? Or household chemicals, sharp objects, or baseball bats? The potential for lethality only exists in the mind of the operator, not the instrument. A megaton warhead is nothing more than a big heavy object until someone pushes a button. And you cannot legislate the human mind.

How far do we go down the path before we realize we probably never should have gotten on it?
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2009, 10:20:23 AM »
it would appear we are at a point that begs us to decide how much freedom we are willing to give up to be safe . In reality any freedom we give up weakens our ablity to be safe .
Check out the Dillion Percision web site with regard to weapon ownership , might be an eye opener .
As in days of old COST governs who owns what just as it does today . Liberals seem to want no one to own anything .

I don't fear someone owning a big weapon ! if i could afford a tank .....
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Offline Gary G

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Re: does the second amendment give the right to bear arms?
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2009, 02:32:20 PM »
Well, I don't smoke, drink or use drugs, but:
Is the drug war worth it? (be sure to see #4 at the bottom)

*The Costs of Drug Price Supports*

Cost #1: Taxes. The US Bureau of Justice Statistics has moved some of the drug war off the books since 2003; they now count "only those expenditures aimed at reducing drug use, rather than those associated with the consequences of drug use." This Enronically reduces official Federal drug war spending to only 13 billion dollars, from the 19 billion of 2003. The most recent figures provideds on state spending are from 1998, given as 78 billion dollars. Given that the cost-cutting Republicans have been very busy since 1998, I think we can safely say that the actual direct tax costs of the drug war are over $100 billion.

Cost #2: The high prices of illegal drugs. All estimates of this cost are suspect (they are provided by those with a vested interest in making the problem appear as big as possible). But while the actual number of drug users may be open to debate, there is no question that legal heroin and cocaine only cost about as much as aspirin; marijuana is literally a weed. Now that they are illegal, they cost the economy tens of billions.

Cost #3: Loss of labor. About 1.5 million people were arrested for drug possession and/or sale in 2003. The overall US prison and jail population is over 2 million. Let’s say roughly half that number is related to the drug war. When each drug user is criminalized, they turn from a worker making an average of $40,000 to an inmate costing around $30,000; that would be another $70 billion or so annually.

Cost #4: Real (not victimless) crime. Murder has soared since the Drug War expanded in the 1970s.
Other crime rates attained heights in recent decades that make the Wild West look like Amish country. Inner-city youth can find easy "careers" as drug distributors. If drugs were legalized, these careers would disappear, along with drive-by shootings and "gangsta culture."

Cost #5: Terrorism. Every half-baked wannabe dictator with a few AK-47s can fund his nonproductive lifestyle with illegal drug sales. From the Taliban to the FARC in Colombia, US-designated "terrorist" groups make money from the US drug trade. If cocaine and heroin cost no more than aspirin, all these moochers would have to get real jobs.
And of course, all the law enforcement effort and prison space that goes into catching and jailing marijuana users is not available to look for murderers and terrorists. After 9-11, supposedly our politician’s security priorities changed… but they didn’t. Any serious attempt to catch terrorists smuggling weapons (or low-flying drones carrying biological weapons) doesn’t have a chance of finding them among the thundering herds of drug smugglers.

*So…. Why Drug Price Supports?*

Drug Prohibition’s costs are obviously much greater than any possible benefit to the general public. So why does every drug-using political hack from Rush Limbaugh to the most leftist pot-smoking Democrat advocate Drug Prohibition? For the same reason that politicians support price supports for milk or sugar: they increase the power of politicians. All price supports confer arbitrary power on those who administer them. Every "cost" I’ve listed above is a "profit" for the parasitic class. Let’s run through them again:

/Cost #1: Taxes, ~$100 billion./

To the politician, a bureaucracy isn’t a cost. It’s a source of patronage and lucrative contracts.

/Cost #2: The high cost of illegal drugs./

To the politician, an artificially high price isn’t a cost. It’s a source of funds; study the career of Chiang Kai-Shek or any number of US politicians.

/Cost #3: Loss of labor./

The ability to lock political opponents up at will is worth billions to any politician. Not to mention, felons can’t vote or own firearms, so the more convicts, the fewer effective political opponents. Of course politicians’ children may get arrested occasionally for Prohibition violations, but that just makes them more dependent on Dear Old Dad.
And like any other bureaucracy, the prison industry is a source of patronage and contracts.

/Cost #4: Real (not victimless) crime./

There was no Federal gun control in the US until after Prohibition; pre-1935 US citizens had machine guns, artillery pieces, tanks, whatever took their fancy. The first national gun control law was passed in the 1930s, supposedly as an anti-gangster measure; it put a $200 tax on great-Grandpa’s tommy gun. Today’s gun control is justified as an anti- "gangsta" measure; supposedly if we confiscate Grandma’s .38 revolver, this will prevent drive-by shootings from inner-city youth using illegal full-auto AKs. While not heavily dependent on logic, the contemporary support for gun control is driven largely by the violence caused by Prohibition.

/Cost #5: terrorism./

Needless to say, terrorism is not a "cost" to those who want to expand government power. Drug Prohibition can be used by the US Imperator as a /casus belli/ against any nation anywhere, for what nation does not "harbor" evil drug lords who sell their wares in the US? Even the sinister Canadians have numerous websites selling cut-rate pharmaceuticals to America’s elderly poor. Drug Prohibition can be used as an excuse to give foreign aid to literally any regime; even the Taliban received "anti-drug" money.

Copied from a Libertarian site (www.Mises.org) and I agree!

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