Author Topic: Which form of government is best?  (Read 1682 times)

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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Which form of government is best?
« on: February 10, 2009, 03:42:24 AM »
lc and I have a little debate going on in TWONA concerning types of governments and I suggested we move it over here to see what all of you might say. Is our form of government the best? Are all governments good/bad or what? Do some forms fit others better than ours? Is our form truly the light of the world or do we just believe that because we live here?

Just what do you guys think?
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

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Offline onesonek

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2009, 03:52:23 AM »
This Country was set up as a Republic, unfortunately we are slipping more towards a Democracy.
This explains it better than I can

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

Dave

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2009, 04:17:57 AM »
Thanks Dave that's the best explanation I've ever seen. 5 stars my man!
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline phalanx

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2009, 09:12:25 AM »
A Republic is the best form of Government , but Republics always fail Because they allow their own enemy's to live under the same laws of freedom that allow those enemy's to destroy them from within.
In other words they are to nice about not stopping the dangers within.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2009, 10:14:43 AM »
Dave,

That was a great link.  Great explanation. 

I would say that presently we are a Democratic Republic with the will of the people being demonstrated socially rather than the rule of law.

My impression of the Democratic party is that they would pull us toward Oligarchy.  I believe this to be Obama's purpose.

The Republican's have been cheap copy-cats and need to find purpose.

We are left in a Mulligan's stew of political thought.

Republicanism is the best form and allows the greatest freedom.  I believe that the Confederate states wanted to restore this and therefore seceded.  They saw the writing on the wall with what Lincoln was willing to sacrifice.  The founding fathers were wiser than we know. 

Who said, "He Governs best who Governs least"?

Offline Gary G

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2009, 01:13:07 PM »
The best form of government has historically been proven to be a free market Rebublic. We currently live in a mixed government, part free market and part socialist. A mixed government is economically one of the most unstable. While a socialist economy will always in time fail because of impossible economic calculation, a mixed economy sends mixed signals to entrepreneurs causing instability. A free Republic is the most stable. We have not had that since the delusion of Keynes who believed that government should control the economy, but in all fairness the Mercantilist had the similar ideas. Interesting that we fought a war to escape that.

According to one research I saw, we are currently ranked 8th as far as being a free country. (and probably rapidly going down hill)
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline Gary G

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2009, 01:42:12 PM »
Another thought:
The perfect government would be to have no government, if only all people would behave, respect other peoples property rights, and be non-aggressive. The reason is it would cost nothing and all wealth produced would remain with the people. Yes, the people pay for any government out of their production. Governments produce nothing in economic terms.

A free Republic, out of necessity, would maintain a government for the purpose of protecting the people against aggression and fraud. This is would be a small government and worth the cost to the people; a cost that would be small in relation to the benefit.

As government grows to other forms (socialist, fascist, mixed), it's costs grow in regard to what it takes out of the economy in the form of production (or wealth) leaving the economy, and the people to struggle to maintain their prosperity. Some future day, it is very likely that the overgrown parasite would be able to suck all the blood out of it's host so that they both die.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2009, 03:19:47 PM »
lc that was Jefferson who made that statement.

phalanx with all due respect I disagree, in truth we are our own worse enemy.

I'm with Gary G as to a Republican form and I think the only things our founding fathers did wrong were: First and foremost they didn't define the office of President well enough. If you will go back and read what went on plus the fact that Washington himself was in charge at the writing of the Constitution and ALL the delegates were in awe and afraid of Washington. You must remember that they even wanted to make him King!! It is that very loophole which has brought us to the Abyss we now stand at! By leaving that hole open and not giving congress more power to control that office we are doomed in the long run.

The one other thing I would have liked to have seen the founding fathers do is some small way to be able to help those in need without making it welfare. Plus they should have delt with "the king of beast" slavery.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline Gary G

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2009, 03:44:32 PM »
Quote
The one other thing I would have liked to have seen the founding fathers do is some small way to be able to help those in need without making it welfare.

GW, they did have a system of welfare. It was called churches, family and neighbors. Now I would argue that government mandated welfare has done more to destroy the family, marriage, religious and moral life, all the while causing a type of slavery to the state.

I recall an 1804 will where a deceased relative gave farms to each of his sons. The oldest son was, in addition, also given a neighbor farm, that had been bought from a widow woman, where he was to let the widow and her children live in the house as long as they wanted and she was to be given a stated sum of money yearly.

I agree about the presidency thing and there should be something determining the wages of congressmen other than letting them pay their selves.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline EsoxLucius

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2009, 04:17:21 PM »
We learn something new everyday whether we want to or not.

Offline briarpatch

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2009, 04:54:53 PM »
I do not believe that with incessant thought, penmanship, deep profound study by capable anointed men and the wording of exactness on every conceivable subject, nothing lacking, that a document could be written, that would not in time, be relegated to the trash heap of human ignorance.
We as a people have the means to change the wrongs. That was given us by our Fore Fathers. They included everything we need. Enough was said and written.
It is just like it always has been and will be, until the wrapping up of this earthly state.
 The reason is most men and women are content to lay on their big A's and drink beer and chase their neighbors spouse. They do not give a big poo. 

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 12:28:15 AM »
Rational Anarchy

http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/RatAnarch/

Fantastic, thanks.

By the way hows your 45/70 shooting?
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline kebs

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 01:51:49 AM »
Government is best which governs least- Thoreau

I believe that more and more.

By the way, I like the way ours works for the most part.  I just wish they would take whatThoreau said to heart.

Offline BBF

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2009, 05:40:54 AM »
 A Republic with mulitple parties that seat numbers of representatives proportionally to votes received with a threshold minimum of perhaps 3 to 5 percent of total votes cast. No Electorial College.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline BullyDawg19

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2009, 10:48:15 AM »
the best Government in my opinion would be a Monarchy and i would be King. of course thats just my opinion.

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2009, 04:51:54 AM »
So does everyone here agree that we must have some form of government? I really am beginning to lean towards no government at all save MAYBE just small town hall meetings. If everyone helps his/her neighbor then why have any government?
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2009, 11:23:00 AM »
The best government is the one that governs least.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline Gary G

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2009, 03:03:20 PM »
So does everyone here agree that we must have some form of government? I really am beginning to lean towards no government at all save MAYBE just small town hall meetings. If everyone helps his/her neighbor then why have any government?
We probably need more than that (military, congress to pay the bills, someone to sign treaties, etc.

I think we could use our present government with the elimination of the Federal Reserve, the Income Tax, and all other unconstitutional activities such as redistribution of wealth. This would severely limit their power and most boondoggle programs. I agree with Graybeard. The best government is the one that governs least. With limited taxing power, they will.

One of our problems is the two party system. For example, my senator is a porker and economically illiterate as most are. However, I voted for him rather than a liberal democrat knowing that neither should be the best choice. The two party system causes 98% of the idiots to be reelected every year. You know he is an idiot, but you can't bring yourself vote for the democrat or vice versa. After this year, I have decided that I will be a Libertarian even if my vote is wasted, because it has been wasted for thirty years anyway.



















The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2009, 07:14:10 PM »
So does everyone here agree that we must have some form of government? I really am beginning to lean towards no government at all save MAYBE just small town hall meetings. If everyone helps his/her neighbor then why have any government?
We probably need more than that (military, congress to pay the bills, someone to sign treaties, etc.

I think we could use our present government with the elimination of the Federal Reserve, the Income Tax, and all other unconstitutional activities such as redistribution of wealth. This would severely limit their power and most boondoggle programs. I agree with Graybeard. The best government is the one that governs least. With limited taxing power, they will.

One of our problems is the two party system. For example, my senator is a porker and economically illiterate as most are. However, I voted for him rather than a liberal democrat knowing that neither should be the best choice. The two party system causes 98% of the idiots to be reelected every year. You know he is an idiot, but you can't bring yourself vote for the democrat or vice versa. After this year, I have decided that I will be a Libertarian even if my vote is wasted, because it has been wasted for thirty years anyway.

I understand your feelings and I agree somewhat but here is my way to get around feeling that its a wasted vote. Since I feel we should vote all the bums out (as my stepdad would say). ;D I'm now going to vote for the new guy every time. I'm not even going to look at records or party affiliation I just want a new guy in every time. If we all voted this way the government would slow down so much it would be impossible to hurt us to much and, I feel, real progress could be made to cut the size of government way down. We may not be able to control who runs but we sure as hell can control just who stays up there. Plus we want EVERY incombent to be scared to death of the next election. ;) ;D

"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2009, 01:10:02 PM »
Gary G,  Have you considered the Constitution party vs. the Libertarian party?

If we are honest with ourselves the two party system has led us to a position where these factions compete for oligarchy.  Very wrong!

If I read Stephen Ambrose right in "Undaunted Courage" we see Jefferson building a consensus for some of his projects, The Corp of Discovery included.  This is what corrupts our system.  We have Lemmings rather than Patriot-Statesmen as our leaders.

Offline Gary G

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2009, 03:12:01 PM »
Gary G,  Have you considered the Constitution party vs. the Libertarian party?

If we are honest with ourselves the two party system has led us to a position where these factions compete for oligarchy.  Very wrong!

If I read Stephen Ambrose right in "Undaunted Courage" we see Jefferson building a consensus for some of his projects, The Corp of Discovery included.  This is what corrupts our system.  We have Lemmings rather than Patriot-Statesmen as our leaders.
LC, I have read F.A. Hayek, Ludwig von Mises and others. They were great economist with a great deal of common sense, unlike Keynes. They both told of the disaster of socialism and how it would fail. They were great free market economist and Mises provided the causes of the business cycle. He was right on. With this knowledge, I was able to predict this depression and get my money out of stocks as well as my wifes 401k, and have not lost a penny. Now this study of economics lead me to the Libertarians. They too understand what caused this turmoil that we are in. Listen to Ron Paul u-tubes. He predicted this mess in advance and is a very good economist in his own right. Bernanke and Obama did not see it coming, do not know what caused it, and don't have a clue as to what to do. They are sending us into "the greater depression". They will have to borrow to pay for all of these trillions and who will they borrow (sell bonds) from? They won't because the world knows that we are devaluing our currency and they have their own problems. The Chinese are already upset with Bernanke. Bernanke will have to buy Geithners bonds with printed money which will be the destruction of the dollar. Then he will backed into a corner of hyperinflation or killing the economy dead. I am not sure that the constitutional party has the necessary understanding for our troubles.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/025336.html
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline jgalar

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2009, 05:56:37 PM »
I wish the heck our Founding Fathers would have put term limits on all elected officials.

I think that one oversight is the cause of losing the Republic.

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2009, 02:06:32 AM »
I was thinking of Term Limits yesterday.  Maybe it's time.

Public opinion the Porkulus package was not popular yet our Democratic leadership voted for it anyway. 

Based on this it looks like we are presently in an Oligarchy at the Federal Level.

Will one or a few states say No and try to return to the "best form of government"?

Offline BBF

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2009, 07:07:37 AM »
Quote from above
" Bernanke and Obama did not see it coming, do not know what caused it, and don't have a clue as to what to do."

 I disagree with this. THEY KNOW EXACTLY what they are doing. >:(
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline Gary G

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2009, 02:30:21 PM »
Quote from above
" Bernanke and Obama did not see it coming, do not know what caused it, and don't have a clue as to what to do."

 I disagree with this. THEY KNOW EXACTLY what they are doing. >:(

Well alright; but just why would they want to burn their own house down?
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2009, 04:41:33 PM »
George Washington said that the two party system would be the ruination of this country.

I believe that Democracy is nothing more than mob rule! We all know where that will get you............I think we are there!

That being said, Democracy is the best thing going short of God sitting in and curing the ill and turning water into wine and etc etc.

I'll bet that the founding fathers never dreamed that there would be a presidential candidate that would win the election by proposing we tax the successful and  spread the wealth. 

I would propose a Representative system where terms would be 2 years(1 term only), and compensation would be out of pocket expenses. We would then only get successful intelligent people that did not need the job to become wealthy. They would only take or want the job because they were patriots and wanted to serve. Kinda like the young men that serve our country today in the military and risk their lives so that we live free! 
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2009, 12:38:40 PM »
I'm reading the book "Death of the Grown-up" by Diana West.  The gist of the book is how America's arrested development is bringing down Western culture.  She takes a look at how we are becoming a nation of children rather than adults.  Interesting read and one that I would highly suggest.  She makes a lot of sense in what she is saying.

As I was reading and writing in the margins of the book this morning my thoughts were led back to this tread.  I'll share some thoughts of my own and some quotes from the book.  Hopefully they will link together nicely to give us a look at why our present government is doomed to failure.

My notes:
For democracy to work properly there must be accepted the presupposition that all men desire the same thing.  This, in turn, presupposes the same moral/ethical influence across the masses.  This is why democracy will fail.
Here I was thinking back to the video that ONESONEK shared. 

From the book:
The paradox is that less restraint doesn't necessarily deliver greater freedom. .............................  .  That's because while personal restraint once curtailed displays of sexuality, it also made democratic society workable in the first place.
My thought is that sexuality can be replaced with anything and give the same outcome.  Personal responsibility is not being taught nor expected at several levels of our culture.  Just think of the kids that you observe when you go out in public.

From the book quoting Walter Berns:
To speak in a manner that is more obviously political, there is a connection between self-restraint and shame, and therefore a connection between shame and self-government or democracy.  There is therefore, a political danger in promoting shamlessness and the fullest self-expression or indulgence.  To live together requires rules and a governing  of the passions, and those who are without shame will be unruly and unrulable; having lost the ability to restain themselves by observing the rules they collectively give themselves,they will have to be ruled by others.
This statement makes me think of our present leaders, especially the parts of the statement in bold.  To some degree this can reflect the majority of both parties.  I personally think that the Democratic party is more guilty of this attitude and promoting the same.

A quote in the book from Mary Ann Glendon:
When regime-threatening questions might come to mind, the oligarchs have authorized a modern form of bread and circuses, an array of new ........freedoms to compensate for the loss of the most basic civil right of all--the right of self government.
There is truly nothing new under the sun.


Based on the fine definitions of types of government in the short film that ONESONEK linked us to and what I've been reading the strength of argument for Republican government has increased in my thinking.  The BIG question, "How do we return to that form of government"?

Offline phalanx

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2009, 02:07:33 PM »
The best government is the one without Obama.
In Lubbock Texas today the Cops almost expected a Riot between Obama Haters and a hand full of Supporters.
The Haters were carrying signs saying ,Impeach Obama , and the Great Lie.
Just a Month of this and look how its going , I don't know about the States you guys live in but around here they are getting real Antsy.
Obama has everyone in a collective Hatred of him , Even the Blacks hate him.
A Black guy was one of the protesters and he said just because im Black ,doesn't mean i don't Hate a Man like this who is tearing apart our Country.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline Gary G

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2009, 03:36:23 PM »
LC, it is my opinion that we are on an unsustainable monetary path. Our dollar, under a Keynesian form of government, has lost 90%+ of it's value since 1971, when Nixon took us off the gold standard. I am certain that Obama is accelerating it's demise. How long before it goes to zero? How long before we destroy the final 6-7% of it's value? When that happens, government will cease to be operational. At that time, we will see a major governmental change. When it happened to the USSR, the people were sick of socialism with it's starvation and social ills and wanted free markets. In this country, I suspect there will be an attempt toward socialism and many will call for it. Do something to help us, they will say. But some will call out for a return to the constitution, knowing that it was the greatest accomplishment ever made by men toward liberty and prosperity for an entire nation. We must educate the people we know.

LC, check this out:
http://www.lp.org/platform

You see anything in there not Jefferson?
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Which form of government is best?
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2009, 02:12:22 AM »
Gary G,

I don't have time to read it this AM but will try to get back to it and comment.  I would split with Libertarian Government for the same reason that I would split with Democracy.  Each form of government asks of the people what they cannot provide.  Self-control and Self-discipline.  Republican government, or the rule of law, is my banner.

To me, the Libertarian party shares the cry of the French Revolution, "Let the People do as they will"! The French Revolution was horrible in result compared to the Colonist's Revolution. 

Edited to Add:  To me, Liberty = Freedom + Responsibility and this defines a Rebublic under Rule of Law.
How does a Libertarian government accomplish Responsibility in the masses?